• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The 2014 Nobel Prize in Physics - Press Release

I reads something to the effect that the reason Edison and Tesla never got the prize was that one could hardly be awarded without the other, but that the two men hated each other so much that it was feared they would disrupt the occasion by getting into a fist fight.


Tesla had good reason to hate Edison
 
That a solution might have been relatively "simple," does not mean that the breakthrough was insignificant. As the press release noted:

They succeeded where everyone else had failed. Akasaki worked together with Amano at the University of Nagoya, while Nakamura was employed at Nichia Chemicals, a small company in Tokushima. Their inventions were revolutionary.

The more detailed explanation can be found here: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/2014/advanced-physicsprize2014.pdf



Technology and understanding advance. Inventions can and do become obsolete. They can also become building blocks for future innovations. One cannot automatically assume that a given inventor would have preferred that progress cease. A quote attributed to Edison was, "Its obvious that we don't know one millionth of one percent about anything." That leaves much room for future discovery.

But we have the advantage of knowing what the limitations were to what Edison was proposing.

DC transmission over large distances is still not practical or feasable.

Anything thats powered by DC, from your flat screen TV to your Computer to the LED light bulbs have to have a DC power supply built into them.

DC power is still only feasible on a local scale.
 
Politicians have turned the Nobel Prize into a farce.
I still think the Science prizes have value, What happens is the time between the work and
the award is so long that people forget how great the contribution was.
I saw Dr. Norman Ramsey speak, after he received his Nobel prize, for
work done almost 40 years earlier.
 
Congratulations Sheldon Cooper.
 
I still think the Science prizes have value, What happens is the time between the work and
the award is so long that people forget how great the contribution was.
I saw Dr. Norman Ramsey speak, after he received his Nobel prize, for
work done almost 40 years earlier.

Maybe you have a point.
 
Is there anything right-wingers don't have a problem with?
 
Is there anything right-wingers don't have a problem with?

Its old news that the Nobel Committee has been corrupted by left wing ideologues.
 
Its old news that the Nobel Committee has been corrupted by left wing ideologues.

Because everything not right-wing, is left-wing, right?
 
There were other people working on the same technology Edison was, including the Light bulb.

Edison just beat them to the punch.

That's the way things work. Almost always, there are multiple efforts being made toward some pursuit and those who reach an outcome first receive most or all of the credit.

Tesla was a far more brilliant and innovative inventor. He also had a eidetic memory.

I am not criticizing Tesla in any way and I'm not choosing one over the other. We agree that Tesla was brilliant. FWIW, neither man won the Nobel Prize.

DC power transmission ( what Edison was pushing for ) over long distances is not practical or even feasible.

In a DC Circuit the electron have to make a complete and unidirectional path, from the source, through the load and then to ground.

If we had stuck with Edison's idea of DC power distribution we would have had to run massive conductors to Sub-stations that were no more than a few miles apart.

Again, we don't disagree. Furthermore, one can't discount the possibility that Edison would ultimately have seen the limitations of DC and worked toward an alternative.
 

Why would you have an issue with something because it is more efficient? Batteries aren't new tech; they've been around for thousands of years. But an advancement that more than doubled the capacity of batteries and fathered a generation of advancements would certainly be worth a Nobel Prize.

Also, if it was such a small achievement, why wasn't anyone else able to grow gallium nitride crystals? Why didn't anyone else notice that excess hydrogen was preventing the creation of the P layer? (Diodes have an N and a P layer). Why didn't anyone else build a blue laser?

It's hard to have RGB without the B. Forget color smartphones without this work. And CD's use a red laser (780nm). Blue rays use a blue laser(405nm). We wouldn't have high capacity optical storage now without this work.
 
There were other people working on the same technology Edison was, including the Light bulb.

Edison just beat them to the punch.

Tesla was a far more brilliant and innovative inventor. He also had a eidetic memory.

DC power transmission ( what Edison was pushing for ) over long distances is not practical or even feasible.

In a DC Circuit the electron have to make a complete and unidirectional path, from the source, through the load and then to ground.

If we had stuck with Edison's idea of DC power distribution we would have had to run massive conductors to Sub-stations that were no more than a few miles apart.

EVERY motor would have had to be commutated. That means regular disassembly of the Commutator section for brush replacements.


Tesla's discovered the properties of Induction. Using the alternating collapsing Electro magnetic field of a primary Coil to transfer ( induce ) AC current into a secondary Coil.


Also his invention of the induction Motor was absolutely revolutionary.

Thanks to his inventions large amounts of power could be transferred over thousands of miles through Conductors that were no more than a inch in diameter.

High voltage could then be transferred into Substations, through Large transformers and then out to homes and businesses where it could be stepped down again as a useful source of energy.

The Car manufacturer Telsa used his name to build a over engineered Golf Cart thats powered by DC.

They should have named the Tesla the Eddison.
I want to like this, everything is true except the Edison bits. Edison was brilliant, but wasn't much of an inventor. Instead, he was one of the most brilliant IP pirates and self promoters of all times.

Tesla was beyond brilliant. Really he's a staggering figure. He invented virtually everything electrically up until semiconductors. He invented AC current, transformers, distribution, the florescent light bulb, induction motors, wireless power transfer, the transistor, radio transmission, remote control, XRays, and made large contributions to robotics. If you've studied EE, that's pretty much the lions share of everything.

Contrast that with Edison. The lightbulb was invented by Heinrich Goebel in 1854. He tried to sell it to Edison, but Edison turned him down because he didn't see any practical use. Goebel died, and Edision bought the patent of his widow for pennies on the dollar. And Menlo Park wasn't just a shack where Edison experimented, but a full fledged research lab with hundreds of employees. Whenever anyone invented something, Edison would patent it under his own name.

There is one field where Edison did novel work: capital punishment. Edison wanted DC (which is impractical for transmission), Tesla-Westinghouse supported AC. Edison had his lab electrocute animals to show how dangerous the "killing" current was. Here's Edison electrocuting Topsy the elephant at a worlds fair. When the government came to Edison and asked for a humane method of carrying out the death penalty, Edison suggested AC current. He didn't suggest it because it was a good solution, but because he thought "Westinghousing" criminals was a good PR move.


Edit: also Tesla uses 3 phase AC induction motors on their cars.
http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology/motor
 
Last edited:
I want to like this, everything is true except the Edison bits. Edison was brilliant, but wasn't much of an inventor. Instead, he was one of the most brilliant IP pirates and self promoters of all times.

Tesla was beyond brilliant. Really he's a staggering figure. He invented virtually everything electrically up until semiconductors. He invented AC current, transformers, distribution, the florescent light bulb, induction motors, wireless power transfer, the transistor, radio transmission, remote control, XRays, and made large contributions to robotics. If you've studied EE, that's pretty much the lions share of everything.

Contrast that with Edison. The lightbulb was invented by Heinrich Goebel in 1854. He tried to sell it to Edison, but Edison turned him down because he didn't see any practical use. Goebel died, and Edision bought the patent of his widow for pennies on the dollar. And Menlo Park wasn't just a shack where Edison experimented, but a full fledged research lab with hundreds of employees. Whenever anyone invented something, Edison would patent it under his own name.

There is one field where Edison did novel work: capital punishment. Edison wanted DC (which is impractical for transmission), Tesla-Westinghouse supported AC. Edison had his lab electrocute animals to show how dangerous the "killing" current was. Here's Edison electrocuting Topsy the elephant at a worlds fair. When the government came to Edison and asked for a humane method of carrying out the death penalty, Edison suggested AC current. He didn't suggest it because it was a good solution, but because he thought "Westinghousing" criminals was a good PR move.


Edit: also Tesla uses 3 phase AC induction motors on their cars.
http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/technology/motor



Tesla uses a Inverter rated 3 phase " AC " motor thats Fed 3 phase frequency modulated DC Square Wave.

Its not true AC that powers that motor. There is no AC Generator in that car

Its DC fed from a Battery pack, into a large inverter which outputs pulse width modulated square wave with a feed back circuit ( most likely a Potentiometer on the Gas pedal ) that regulates the distance of the individual square waves which controls the RPM of that motor.

If you plug a Oscilloscope into your average socket in a home you'll see ( if you set it up correctly ) one phase of a true AC sinusoidal waveform peaking from positive 118 v to negative 118 v , 60 times a second.

For 3 phase AC you'll see three phases of Sinusoidal waveforms superimposed over each other at 120 degrees out of phase. ( minus powerfactor )

3 phase 230 is two legs of 120 v and one " hot leg " of 230.

3 phase 480 v is 3 legs of 277v

Hook up a Oscilloscope to the output of a Tesla and you'll see a manufactured " sinusoidal " square wave.

Positive DC to Negative DC. Because of the motors inherent inductive qualities if you switch the O-scope over to read amperage instead of voltage it will look like a typical sinusoidal waveform.

The motor is fooled by its own inductive properties.

Motors have to be rated to run off a Inverter or they dont last long.
 
Tesla uses a Inverter rated 3 phase " AC " motor thats Fed 3 phase frequency modulated DC Square Wave.

Its not true AC that powers that motor. There is no AC Generator in that car

Its DC fed from a Battery pack, into a large inverter which outputs pulse width modulated square wave with a feed back circuit ( most likely a Potentiometer on the Gas pedal ) that regulates the distance of the individual square waves which controls the RPM of that motor.

If you plug a Oscilloscope into your average socket in a home you'll see ( if you set it up correctly ) one phase of a true AC sinusoidal waveform peaking from positive 118 v to negative 118 v , 60 times a second.

For 3 phase AC you'll see three phases of Sinusoidal waveforms superimposed over each other at 120 degrees out of phase. ( minus powerfactor )

3 phase 230 is two legs of 120 v and one " hot leg " of 230.

3 phase 480 v is 3 legs of 277v

Hook up a Oscilloscope to the output of a Tesla and you'll see a manufactured " sinusoidal " square wave.

Positive DC to Negative DC. Because of the motors inherent inductive qualities if you switch the O-scope over to read amperage instead of voltage it will look like a typical sinusoidal waveform.

The motor is fooled by its own inductive properties.

Motors have to be rated to run off a Inverter or they dont last long.

Yep, but it's still an AC motor. The inverter is the AC generator, it's just powered by a DC source instead of an induction motor spun by a gasoline engine.

(Also you're right. Inverters tend to be "messier". Building waveforms by switching introduces an infinite number of odd harmonics. Low pass filtering will dampen them, especially the higher ones. However, unless you're switching at many many times the output frequency, you're still going to have residual noise on the signal. This is sort of like shaking the motor in an electrical sense and essentially operates the motor at higher instantaneous loads and currents than you'd see with clean power)
 
Yep, but it's still an AC motor. The inverter is the AC generator, it's just powered by a DC source instead of an induction motor spun by a gasoline engine.

(Also you're right. Inverters tend to be "messier". Building waveforms by switching introduces an infinite number of odd harmonics. Low pass filtering will dampen them, especially the higher ones. However, unless you're switching at many many times the output frequency, you're still going to have residual noise on the signal. This is sort of like shaking the motor in an electrical sense and essentially operates the motor at higher instantaneous loads and currents than you'd see with clean power)


Harmonics from ( older ) VFDs/ inverters are only an issue if that VFD is installed in the field, like a industrial application where those harmonics can back feed and degrade your overall power factor.

Low power factors can cause component, motor and transformers to over heat and your utility bill to go up.

Newer VFDs-inverter have carrier frequency inductors built into them that filter out most of the Harmonics.

Had Tesla invented the inverter, OK then name the car after him.

But running DC from a bank of Capacittors, through a switching circuit and firing it off via HV IGBTs as a DC Square Wave isn't a AC Generator.

Its a BIG Signal Generator. A Signal Generator ( Ive built a couple of them when I used to Hobby build ) is a electronic component.

Not a Telsa invention and not even remotely a AC Generator.

Try to run that square wave through a isolation transformer like a actual AC sinusoidal waveform for the purpose of Induction and your'e going to release " the magic smoke."
 
Harmonics from ( older ) VFDs/ inverters are only an issue if that VFD is installed in the field, like a industrial application where those harmonics can back feed and degrade your overall power factor.

Low power factors can cause component, motor and transformers to over heat and your utility bill to go up.

Newer VFDs-inverter have carrier frequency inductors built into them that filter out most of the Harmonics.

Had Tesla invented the inverter, OK then name the car after him.

But running DC from a bank of Capacittors, through a switching circuit and firing it off via HV IGBTs as a DC Square Wave isn't a AC Generator.

Its a BIG Signal Generator. A Signal Generator ( Ive built a couple of them when I used to Hobby build ) is a electronic component.

Not a Telsa invention and not even remotely a AC Generator.

Try to run that square wave through a isolation transformer like a actual AC sinusoidal waveform for the purpose of Induction and your'e going to release " the magic smoke."

Induction motors require an AC voltage source. Tesla invented the induction motor. Not that any of that has anything to do with why Elon named the company after Tesla.

As for the rest, I'm not sure what you're getting at.
 
Induction motors require an AC voltage source. Tesla invented the induction motor. Not that any of that has anything to do with why Elon named the company after Tesla.

As for the rest, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Just trying to make clear that in terms of power generation that there is a distinct difference between a Signal Generator and a AC Generator.


Personally I think they named the Car after Tesla because its sounded cooler than calling it the " Edison ".

Thanks to 30 years of Electronics and Industrial controls experience I'm welll educated on the Technology that vehicle uses to get around.

Its powered by DC and the primary debate between Edison and Tesla centered power generation and distribution.
 
Just trying to make clear that in terms of power generation that there is a distinct difference between a Signal Generator and a AC Generator.


Personally I think they named the Car after Tesla because its sounded cooler than calling it the " Edison ".

Thanks to 30 years of Electronics and Industrial controls experience I'm welll educated on the Technology that vehicle uses to get around.

Its powered by DC and the primary debate between Edison and Tesla centered power generation and distribution.

The wires going into the motor don't care if the voltage was produced from an inverter, a gasoline powered generator, a solar panel, etc.. It's an AC powered induction motor. Just like a DC motor doesn't care if it's powered by a battery or an AC to DC power supply.
 
The wires going into the motor don't care if the voltage was produced from an inverter, a gasoline powered generator, a solar panel, etc.. It's an AC powered induction motor. Just like a DC motor doesn't care if it's powered by a battery or an AC to DC power supply.



Actually, motors have to be rated for inverter use.

Run a 3 phase motor designed for continuous 60 hz operation on a inverter and it will overheat and trip the internal motor winding thermisrer.

23 years ago when as a R & D and Test technician for a large manufacturer I had to attend a school on Siemens Variable Frequency Drives.

We never addressed the operation in terms of A/C on a technical and Professional level because Inverters don't supply AC.

They supply a DC Square wave.

We needed to understand that distinction for troubleshooting and understanding the function of the drives.

So for a layman you or anyone else can call that output AC and Tesla can get away with saying their supplying AC to a AC Motor.
 
Actually, motors have to be rated for inverter use.

Run a 3 phase motor designed for continuous 60 hz operation on a inverter and it will overheat and trip the internal motor winding thermisrer.

23 years ago when as a R & D and Test technician for a large manufacturer I had to attend a school on Siemens Variable Frequency Drives.

We never addressed the operation in terms of A/C on a technical and Professional level because Inverters don't supply AC.

They supply a DC Square wave.

We needed to understand that distinction for troubleshooting and understanding the function of the drives.

So for a layman you or anyone else can call that output AC and Tesla can get away with saying their supplying AC to a AC Motor.
I'm not trying to disagree with whatever training you received. But a square wave isn't DC. As Fourier proved, a time varying periodic signal can be decomposed into a number of harmonics. A square wave is essentially a combination of an infinite number of odd harmonics of the fundamental frequency. Here's an illustration of what happens when you start with a single sine wave and add specific odd harmonics.
Fourier%20composition%20of%20a%20square%20wave.gif


So a square wave is essentially a bunch of sine waves superimposed on each other, sort of like a bunch of different voices in a choir. So if you want to make a square wave look like "normal AC" you need to pass it though a low pass filter to get rid of the higher frequency components. This is sort of like getting rid of the altos, sopranos, and tenors, and keeping the bass.

Anyway, point being.. inverters create AC and induction motors require AC.. (FYI I'm not quite a layman).
 
I'm not trying to disagree with whatever training you received. But a square wave isn't DC. As Fourier proved, a time varying periodic signal can be decomposed into a number of harmonics. A square wave is essentially a combination of an infinite number of odd harmonics of the fundamental frequency. Here's an illustration of what happens when you start with a single sine wave and add specific odd harmonics.
Fourier%20composition%20of%20a%20square%20wave.gif


So a square wave is essentially a bunch of sine waves superimposed on each other, sort of like a bunch of different voices in a choir. So if you want to make a square wave look like "normal AC" you need to pass it though a low pass filter to get rid of the higher frequency components. This is sort of like getting rid of the altos, sopranos, and tenors, and keeping the bass.

Anyway, point being.. inverters create AC and induction motors require AC.. (FYI I'm not quite a layman).


I'm aware of all that but a DC oscillating output having some of the characteristics of a pure AC sinusoidal waveform doesn't make a Inverter a AC Generator.

The output of a Oscillator or a inverter is simply a DC output in a repeating cycle with distinct characteristics from a sinusoidal waveform produced by a Generator.

I can attests that there was always a HIGHLY dangerous 800 volt DC bus at the heart of all of the VFDs I use to troubleshoot.

So thats 460 in, through a Full wave rectifier into a Bus and then into 3 isolated banks of very lethal Capacitors, through a Oscillator circuit and then fired out through HV IGBTs.

It was manufactured.

When I built my last Signal Generator I built it around the ICL8038 Wafeform generator chip and powered it with a linear DC power supply that contained positive and negative voltage regulators ( LM7812 and LM 7912 )

I could even alter the positive and negative characteristics of that wave form and run 0-5 volt positive waveforms or 0-5 volt negative waveforms.

So 115 into a step down trasformer before running the secondary through the Full wave rectifier, through Filter circuit and then into the DC voltage regulators

There was NO House AC input on the back end of that signal generator.
 
Last edited:
Really?
For better blue LEDs?

Are you kidding me.

I mean, don't get me wrong, that's great and all, and better and more efficient powerful blue LEDs are always nice but the ones we have today are good enough. I mean, blue LEDs have been around for 20 years and they're good enough. I mean, shouldn't the Nobel prize go for like... big advances in a field instead of just improving something. There is no new massive groundbreaking technology involved in making these blue LEDs. They're just using a different coating. That's all.

Ah well, good for them anyway.

I didn't read the article, however I'm sure it has something to do with plasma rather than just a blue LED.
 
Back
Top Bottom