• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

**BREAKING** U.S. Supreme Court Refuses to Rule on Gay Marriage

Then I would go with two shifts: the construction of the hierarchical system beginning with town/state civilization some six thousand-ish years ago, and the gradual deconstruction of that system starting with the concept of human rights (or "natural" rights) in the 16th century. All increases in human rights and liberties have been an extension that began in that period. Apparently we will release our hold on hierarchies, but only very, very grudgingly.

Those are certainly far reaching but they fall short on the "rapid" criterion. Both of those took much, much longer than a generation.
 
Those are certainly far reaching but they fall short on the "rapid" criterion. Both of those took much, much longer than a generation.

Which is why ssm is just one piece of the second large-scale social movement.
 
Which is why ssm is just one piece of the second large-scale social movement.

We'll have to part company there. A fundamental revision of a social convention thousands (tens of thousands?) of years old in a single generation stands on its own as a remarkable and unprecedented shift, IMHO.
 
We'll have to part company there. A fundamental revision of a social convention thousands (tens of thousands?) of years old in a single generation stands on its own as a remarkable and unprecedented shift, IMHO.

It stands to reason that any change in human rights and liberties would somehow infringe on some other, separate convention that is thousands of years old: woman's suffrage gradually turning over the institution of patriarchy, freedom overturning the institution of slavery, a free middle class overturning feudalism, etc.
 
It stands to reason that any change in human rights and liberties would somehow infringe on some other, separate convention that is thousands of years old: woman's suffrage gradually turning over the institution of patriarchy, freedom overturning the institution of slavery, a free middle class overturning feudalism, etc.

Yes. I agree. The breathtaking feature this time is the speed.
 
Equal rights is coming and some people dont like it, oh well to bad lol Theres no valid reason to be against it, they have all been debunked.
We saw these same people with woman issues, minority issues and interracial marriage.

There failed arguments were piss poor, illogical, mentally retarded and based on nothing more than bigotry then ad the same applies today.

If you dont like gay marriage thats fine by me, but actively fighting against equal rights is a disgrace IMO and makes you a bigoted hypocrite.


View attachment 67174136

#EqualRightsIsWinning

Yeah, think i see some of the same bigots in both pics sadly.
 
Yes. I agree. The breathtaking feature this time is the speed.

Increased media technology is probably responsible for that. It's much more difficult for movements to remain isolated and fragmented. Ideas can take root and spread fast.
 
Probably had something to do with it. That does not make it less remarkable.

I never suggested it was. I think it's great that positive ideas can get off the ground and take effect so much more quickly. Bad ideas can take hold too just as easily, but you know, cracked eggs and all.
 
Yes. I agree. The breathtaking feature this time is the speed.

It's still hard to believe sometimes and gives me renewed hope for humanity. I figure some brave people who came out back when it was social suicide made this turnaround possible, but also, communication is much more rapid now than the days of women's suffrage. Even rednecks out in oklahoma can go online and see that gay weddings are perfectly harmless.
 
Obviously (not to you), I never said they can't. They certainly can, but there is a right way and a wrong way. Currently, it's the unconstitutional wrong way.

No, it isn't. You just personally disagree with the legal and constitutional reasoning behind the overturn.
 
Well I spelled it out pretty clearly for you and you ignored it:

yeah thanks, i figured he wasn't worth my time to put together a more detailed argument. We both could link to dozens of articles and police reports on soldiers discharged under DADT, assaults, school expulsion etc etc, but he won't even bother to read and will just hold fingers to ears, so screw it.
 
I quite agree, but SSM was so far outside the imagination of the court at the time that I don't think Loving applies. I suspect that's why the SCOTUS is letting SSM be established without having to take up that question.

I'm not sure if you meant to agree with his Loving v. Virginia argument, but I'd advise against it. I've seen people who want the Supreme Court to concoct a constitutional right to same-sex marriage try to use Loving in similar arguments before. And in this case, he contradicts himself by claiming the Court didn't mean same-sex marriage, even as he claims that because it meant marriage generally, it meant there is a fundamental right to same-sex marriage.

Let's assume he's right that by saying marriage is a fundamental right--period--the Supreme Court meant not only traditional marriage between one man and one woman, but also marriage between two partners of the same sex. Why should we think that the Court meant to include only that one form of non-traditional marriage in the fundamental right to marry?

Isn't it suspiciously convenient that this fundamental right to marriage only extends far enough outside traditional marriage to include same-sex marriage? Why doesn't it also include bigamous, incestuous, and polygamous marriages, for example?

And if there is a fundamental right to these other forms of marriage, how can it be that almost a half-century after Loving, bigamy, polygamy, and incestuous marriages are still prohibited by state law? Probably all fifty states prohibit them--Congress required several states to pledge in their constitutions to prohibit polygamy forever, as a condition of being admitted to the Union.

When a state law involves a fundamental right, it changes things a lot. In a suit challenging a law like that on Fourteenth Amendment substantive due process or equal protection grounds, the court will apply the Supreme Court's "strict scrutiny" standard. Because that standard is extremely hard to meet, a state law that restricts a fundamental right will usually be unconstitutional.

The obvious answer to this conundrum is that the poster's assertion is wrong, and that the Supreme Court has never said--in Loving or anywhere else--that the fundamental right to marriage includes anything except marriage between one man and one woman. And a look at the standard the Court applies to determine if a right is fundamental shows why. The Court has stated this standard in slightly different ways in cases going back to before WWII, but the following statement of it from Lawrence v. Texas is as good as any.

To be fundamental, a right

"must not only be 'deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition,' but it must also be 'implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,' so that 'neither liberty nor justice would exist if [it] were sacrificed'"

Anyone who thinks same-sex marriage meets that standard is welcome to try to make the case.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure if you meant to agree with his Loving v. Virginia argument, but I'd advise against it. I've seen people who want the Supreme Court to concoct a constitutional right to same-sex marriage try to use Loving in similar arguments before.

Let's assume he's right that by saying marriage is a fundamental right--period--the Supreme Court meant not only traditional marriage between one man and one woman, but also marriage between two partners of the same sex. Why should we think that the Court meant to include only that one form of non-traditional marriage in the fundamental right to marry?

Isn't it suspiciously convenient that this fundamental right to marriage only extends far enough outside traditional marriage to include same-sex marriage? Why doesn't it also include bigamous, incestuous, and polygamous marriages, for example?

And if there is a fundamental right to these other forms of marriage, how can it be that almost a half-century after Loving, bigamy, polygamy, and incestuous marriages are still prohibited by state law? Probably all fifty states prohibit them--Congress required several states to pledge in their constitutions to prohibit polygamy forever, as a condition of being admitted to the Union.

When a state law involves a fundamental right, it changes things a lot. In a suit challenging a law like that on Fourteenth Amendment substantive due process or equal protection grounds, the court will apply the Supreme Court's "strict scrutiny" standard. Because that standard is extremely hard to meet, a state law that restricts a fundamental right will usually be unconstitutional.

The obvious answer to this conundrum is that the poster's assertion is wrong, and that the Supreme Court has never said--in Loving or anywhere else--that the fundamental right to marriage includes anything except marriage between one man and one woman. And a look at the standard the Court applies to determine if a right is fundamental shows why. The Court has stated this standard in slightly different ways in cases going back to before WWII, but the following statement of it from Lawrence v. Texas is as good as any.

To be fundamental, a right

"must not only be 'deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition,' but it must also be 'implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,' so that 'neither liberty nor justice would exist if [it] were sacrificed'"

Anyone who thinks same-sex marriage meets that standard is welcome to try to make the case.

My point was that Loving cannot stand as a precedent in the gay marriage discussion because Loving was about access to an established social convention and the gay marriage discussion has been about whether a new social convention should be established. That question has been answered in the affirmative. Your points about bigamy, polygamy, etc. are logical. I expect to see those discussions begin after the gay marriage dust has settled.
 
Yeah, think i see some of the same bigots in both pics sadly.
I wouldnt be surprised if minimum some are at least from the same family tree. Stupidity like that is taught.
 
Day 4 and still not a peep from DP's resident homophobe. I'm shocked...I tell ya....shocked. Could it be that he has finally come to the realization that he and his ilk have been defeated?
 
No, it isn't. You just personally disagree with the legal and constitutional reasoning behind the overturn.

At least I've been able to back it up with a well reasoned set of facts and arguments. You have not. You have "just because" as your reasoning.
 
At least I've been able to back it up with a well reasoned set of facts and arguments. You have not. You have "just because" as your reasoning.

so i dont misunderstand what are you claiming that you backed up with facts?
 
It might not be the gay community, the illegal aliens are looking ripe for the liberals right now. There is also free contraceptions for all the women that can't stop themselves from getting pregnant, though it might be getting old now. But don't worry, they have to find some less important issue to scream about instead of focusing on important issues.

Please tell me of one woman who uses birth control without a man? There are some that are prescribed The Pill for medical purposes but otherwise, ALL bc is used equally by men and women...but women are stuck with purchasing most of it. Men benefit equally from bc.
 
Yes. I agree. The breathtaking feature this time is the speed.

Or perhaps there is just shame in the past...100 yrs for Jim Crow to finally be dismissed (but still lingers), and how many years for women's suffragacy? And that's just 'since that movement,'....the fact that it had to occur at all? :(
 
Back
Top Bottom