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Gay marriage, once inconceivable, now appears inevitable

joG said:
Forcing people to behave against their religious beliefs,when they are doing nobody physical harm is revolting, certainly.
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Nobody forced them to do anything. They took it upon themselves to serve the public.
 
Blue_State said:
If I am Jewish, can I refuse to serve someone who has a swastika on their face?
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I'm not positive, but I believe so as that isn't denying them based on a race, national origin, religion, disability, or Gender (pretty sure Gender now qualifies as part of these laws as well).
 
Blue_State said:
If I am Jewish, can I refuse to serve someone who has a swastika on their face?
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Blue_State said:
LOL. I was just curious to how the law applies in this situation. I have a feeling the Jewish guy would be at fault for not serving the person.
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You would have guessed wrong. From a similar case...

Elane Photography also suggests that enforcing the NMHRA against it would mean
that an African-American photographer could not legally refuse to photograph a Ku Klux
Klan rally. This hypothetical suffers from the reality that political views and political group
membership, including membership in the Klan, are not protected categories under the
NMHRA.

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/ElanePhotoNMSCopinion.pdf​



Both Nazi's and the KKK are political/social groups and not part of the classifications listed in the law.



>>>>
 
WorldWatcher said:
You would have guessed wrong. From a similar case...

Elane Photography also suggests that enforcing the NMHRA against it would mean
that an African-American photographer could not legally refuse to photograph a Ku Klux
Klan rally. This hypothetical suffers from the reality that political views and political group
membership, including membership in the Klan, are not protected categories under the
NMHRA.

http://www.adfmedia.org/files/ElanePhotoNMSCopinion.pdf​



Both Nazi's and the KKK are political/social groups and not part of the classifications listed in the law.



>>>>
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Awesome. Thanks for the info.
 
Zyphlin said:
There isn't. But there are laws that says that a person who hates black people can't refuse to rent them a room at their hotel, for example.

Which is what is being talked about here. BUSINESSES being disallowed to discriminate in their open to the public businesses. Not laws disallowing people to discriminate in their private life.
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Why the distinction? Why not ban discrimination in all circumstances, and not just in some? If something is icky and hurtful and makes other humans feel yucky and invalidated, the less of it we allow the better, right? How can we ever hope to turn this country into one big kindergarten full of helpless victims if we settle for half-measures?

You haven't said where business ends. If the parents of the guy who was beheaded in Syria wanted to rent a room in their house, how could they turn away an applicant because he was a fundamentalist Muslim? Surely the fact they'd have to watch him coming and going between their house and his jihadist meetings at the local subversive mosque, in all his garb, would be no excuse for their hateful Islamophobia!
 
Deuce said:
Do you oppose all public accommodation laws or just the ones that protect gays? Can I put up a "NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED" sign on my airplane? I don't want any passengers who think they're going somewhere better if we crash.
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Yeah, I oppose all such laws.
 
joG said:
If the society does not like the baker saying his mind they need not buy his cake. There is nothing to be said against that. To allow government to punish citizens for expressing their views is is really stupid and anti-democratic.
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Except it wasn't "expressing their views," it was denying service in a business that holds out to the public in violation of public accommodation laws. It's the same reason the government would punish you for a "No Blacks" sign.
 
matchlight said:
Why the distinction? Why not ban discrimination in all circumstances, and not just in some? If something is icky and hurtful and makes other humans feel yucky and invalidated, the less of it we allow the better, right? How can we ever hope to turn this country into one big kindergarten full of helpless victims if we settle for half-measures?

You haven't said where business ends. If the parents of the guy who was beheaded in Syria wanted to rent a room in their house, how could they turn away an applicant because he was a fundamentalist Muslim? Surely the fact they'd have to watch him coming and going between their house and his jihadist meetings at the local subversive mosque, in all his garb, would be no excuse for their hateful Islamophobia!
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If you prefer smaller government, why not just eliminate government completely? That's what you want to do, right? You want to end the United States, right? Why not do that?
 
WorldWatcher said:
>


I've proposed a compromise for a number of years...

1. Pass Same-sex Civil Marriage.

2. Repeal Public Accommodation laws that apply to private businesses​




Same Sex Couple get Civil Marriages. Businesses are not required to provide goods and services to anyone they don't want to. Public Accommodation laws would only apply to government entities and would restrict the ability of government entities to contract with or provide funds to private organizations which have a discriminatory business model.



It's a win/win.



>>>>
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Unless you're black living in Missouri. Not much of a win then.
 
WorldWatcher said:
>


I've proposed a compromise for a number of years...

1. Pass Same-sex Civil Marriage.

2. Repeal Public Accommodation laws that apply to private businesses​




Same Sex Couple get Civil Marriages. Businesses are not required to provide goods and services to anyone they don't want to. Public Accommodation laws would only apply to government entities and would restrict the ability of government entities to contract with or provide funds to private organizations which have a discriminatory business model.



It's a win/win.



>>>>
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You'll permit the institutionalization of racism and other bigotries if it means gays can marry? That's not a win-win, that's a selfish disgusting ignorant selling out of ones fellow man. Gratz.
 
WorldWatcher said:
>


I've proposed a compromise for a number of years...

1. Pass Same-sex Civil Marriage.

2. Repeal Public Accommodation laws that apply to private businesses​




Same Sex Couple get Civil Marriages. Businesses are not required to provide goods and services to anyone they don't want to. Public Accommodation laws would only apply to government entities and would restrict the ability of government entities to contract with or provide funds to private organizations which have a discriminatory business model.



It's a win/win.



>>>>
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Counter proposal: no.
 
Deuce said:
If you prefer smaller government, why not just eliminate government completely? That's what you want to do, right? You want to end the United States, right? Why not do that?
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That's hysterical nonsense, sure.
 
ecofarm said:
That's hysterical nonsense, sure.
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Hysterical nonsense? You mean, it's not sensible to take any opinion I disagree with and extrapolate it to absurd extremes? That's not a real debate? Fascinating.
 
ecofarm said:
You'll permit the institutionalization of racism and other bigotries if it means gays can marry? That's not a win-win, that's a selfish disgusting ignorant selling out of ones fellow man. Gratz.
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"Institutionalized racism"?

Not gonna happen. "Corporatization" will counter that very well.

1. Areas of the country where black people couldn't rent a room for the night when traveling.

2. Areas of the country where black people traveling couldn't buy gas from white station owners.

3. Areas of the country where blacks couldn't eat unless they could find a black's only food establishment.

4. And we had systematic discrimination against minorities in terms of how government functioned, such as segregated mass transit (buses, trains, etc.), schools, law enforcement, etc.

5. Even segregation in the military.​



In those days such things were commonplace, but society has changed in the last 50 years and changed a lot. There has been a "corporatisation" where you can't spit without finding a company gas station, movie theater, restaurateur, motel/hotel, etc. Just because we repeal Public Accommodation laws, doesn't mean that things are going to go back to the way they were 3 generations ago. And there are a number of factors that impact this:

1. We are much more mobile society. People routinely travel in a manner unprecedented then both temporary and "permanent" relocation's out of the area they grew up in.

2. We are more informed society and information is much more available today about how a business conducts it self in term so taking care of customers we have Criag's list, Angie's list, Yelp, and a plethora of hotel, restaurant, and review sites for any type of business and it's not just the discriminated against who would choose not to associate with such a business. It includes many in the majority that would shy away from such businesses when discriminatory practices become public knowledge.

3. The "corporatisation" of businesses in America watches the bottom line and having your "brand name" associated with and appearing to condone discrimination has a negative impact on the bottom line. With corporate owned "shops" and franchises who still fall under policies of the home office means that these businesses will not allow or condone what was going on prior to the 60's.​


**************************************************


So the question becomes the balance of the rights of the private business owner to manage their private property according to their desires as compared to the desires of others to have access to that private business. With the widespread discrimination 3-generations ago there may have been justification to say the rights of the property owner needed to be usurped - on a temporary basis - but those times are pretty much gone. The balance was greatly tilted toward discrimination. I think of myself as a Goldwater Conservative quite a bit because Goldwater had the testicular fortitude to stand up against Fedreal Public Accommodation laws, not because he was a bigot or a racist - but because he believed in limited government.

But in general the widespread issues from 60 years ago have been resolved by fundamental shifts in society. Sure there will be isolated instances, thats the price of liberty and dealing with your own issues. A burger joint says - I won't serve a black? OK, walk across the street to Applebee's. A photographer doesn't want to shoot a same-sex wedding? OK, Google or Angie's List another photographer in the area.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all FOR keeping Public Accommodation laws in force in terms of the functioning of government but that is because citizens have an inherent right to equal treatment by the government. There is no such right to equal treatment by other individuals.



>>>>
 
WorldWatcher said:
"
Don't get me wrong, I'm all FOR keeping Public Accommodation laws in force in terms of the functioning of government but that is because citizens have an inherent right to equal treatment by the government. There is no such right to equal treatment by other individuals.



>>>>
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And how about a small town with one grocery store who just wont sell food to those darned negroes welfare queens? Is "this would cause less harm than it used to" really an argument you're making?
 
Deuce said:
And how about a small town with one grocery store who just wont sell food to those darned negroes welfare queens? Is "this would cause less harm than it used to" really an argument you're making?
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Deuce said:
And how about a small town with one grocery store who just wont sell food to those darned negroes welfare queens? Is "this would cause less harm than it used to" really an argument you're making?
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I grew up in a small town, the one grocery store was a chain-store. The corporate office would fire a manager that decided not to sell to the darned negroes welfare queens?

The Mom & Pop grocery stores from the early 1900's have been replaced with...

Walmart
Kroger
Albertsons
Safeway
Publix
Winn-Dixie
Dairy Farm
Shoprite
TARGET
A&P Supermarkets (Connecticut, New Jersey, New York)
Food Basics (Philadelphia and New York City metropolitan areas)
Pathmark (New Jersey, New York, and the Philadelphia metropolitan area)
Super Fresh (Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania)
The Food Emporium (New York City area)
Waldbaum's
Acme Fresh Market (northeastern Ohio, New Jersey)
Andronico's (California)
Arlan's Market (Texas)
Handy Andy (New Braunfels, San Antonio, Schertz, and Seguin, Texas)
Arteagas Food Center (northern California)
Associated Supermarkets (New York City area)
Balducci's (New York City, Washington, D.C., and their suburbs)
Bashas' (Arizona; plus one store in Needles, California)
AJ's Fine Foods – upscale
Bashas' Diné Markets (Navajo Nation)
Big M (Pennsylvania; northern New York)
Big Y Foods (southern New England)
BI-LO (southeastern US)
Harveys
Reid's
Sweetbay
Winn-Dixie
BJ's Wholesale Club (eastern US)
Breaux Mart Supermarkets (New Orleans area)
Brookshire Grocery Company (Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana)
Super 1 Foods (eastern Texas; plus Bastrop, Monroe, Shreveport, and West Monroe, Louisiana)
Brookshire Brothers (Texas)
Broulims (Idaho)
Brown & Cole (Washington)
Cost Cutter (New Jersey)
Food Depot (Georgia and North Carolina)
Food Pavilion
Red Apple
Save-On-Foods
Buehler's (Ohio)
Butera (Illinois)
Busch's (southeastern US; Michigan)
Buy For Less (Oklahoma City metro)
C-Town (northeastern US)
Bravo (northeastern US)
Cannata's Family Market (Louisiana)
Caraluzzi's (Fairfield County, Connecticut)
Chief Supermarket (Defiance, Ohio)
Coborns (Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota)
CobornsDelivers (Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota; Wisconsin) – online grocery
Compare Foods Supermarket (North Carolina, New York City, Long Island, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island)
County Market (midwestern US)
Crest Foods (Oklahoma City area)
Crosby's Marketplace (North Shore Boston area)
D'Agostino Supermarkets (New York City)
D&W Food Centers (Michigan)
Dahl's Foods (Des Moines, Iowa area)
Dan's Supermarket (North Dakota)
David's Supermarkets (rural northern Texas)
DeCicco's (north of New York City)
Dehoff's Key Markets (Bay Area, California)
Key Markets
DeMoulas' Market Basket (Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine)
Dierbergs (greater St. Louis)
Dillons (Kansas)
Econofoods (Twin Cities; western Wisconsin)
Edwards Food Giant (central and eastern Arkansas)
Fairway Market (southwestern Connecticut, northern New Jersey, southern New York)
Fareway (Iowa, South Dakota, North Dakota, Nebraska, Minnesota)
Felpausch (Michigan)
Festival Foods (Minnesota, Wisconsin)
Food City (Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia)
Food Emporium
FoodFair (eastern Kentucky, southeastern Ohio, western West Virginia)
Food Bazaar Supermarkets (Connecticut, New Jersey, New York)
Food Giant
Foodland (Hawaii)
Sack&Save
FoodLand Supermarkets (Kentucky, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia)
Food Lion (Florida, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Delaware, Georgia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, West Virginia)
Foodtown (New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania)
Food Town (Houston, Texas)
Fresh & Easy (California, Arizona, and Nevada) – division of the British chain Tesco
Gelson's Markets (southern California)
Gerland's Food Fair (Houston, Texas)
Giant Eagle (Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Maryland)
Giant Food (Maryland, Virginia, Washington DC, Delaware)
Giant Food Stores (Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, New York, New Jersey, Ohio, West Virginia)
Giantway (Michigan)
Glen's Market (northern Michigan)
Gourmet Garage (mostly in Manhattan, New York City)
Great American Food Stores (New York)
Great Valu Markets (Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia)
Gristedes (mostly in Manhattan, New York City)
Grocer's Pride (Houston, Texas; Mississippi)
Haggen Food & Pharmacy (Oregon, Washington)
Top Food & Drug
Hannaford Brothers Company(New England and Albany, New York)
Harding's Friendly Markets (southwestern Michigan)
Harmons Grocery (Utah)
Harp's Market (Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma) – competes against Walmart in small towns. Larger stores include sporting goods.
Harvest Foods (Arkansas) – created when Safeway divested its Little Rock division in the late 1980s. Assets bought by former employees. In the early 1990s, Harvest Foods went bankrupt and Affiliated Foods Southwest bought the chain — with AFS later filing for its own bankruptcy in 2009. Selected stores formerly carrying the Harvest Foods banner were purchased and rebranded by Kroger and Brookshire's at the time of the Harvest Foods bankruptcy. Additionally, some store locations were purchased and rebranded by Edwards Food Giant following the AFS bankruptcy. Surviving stores are independently owned and operated.
Harvest Foods (Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Washington) – a regional network of 37 independently owned and operated stores, unrelated to the Arkansas chain
H-E-B (Texas, Mexico)
Central Market
H-E-B Plus
Heinen's Fine Foods (greater Cleveland, Ohio and greater Chicago, Illinois)
Hiller's Market (greater Detroit)
Holiday Market (Royal Oak, Michigan)
Holiday Foods (southern Indiana)
Holiday Quality Foods (northern California)
Hollywood Super Market (northern Detroit suburbs)
Homeland (Kansas, Oklahoma, formerly Texas)
Houchens Industries (Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois)
Buehler's Buy-Low (Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana)
Hugo's (Minnesota, North Dakota)
Hy-Vee (midwestern and central US)
Ingles (southern US)
Jack 'n Jill (North Dakota)
Jons Marketplace (Los Angeles, California area)
Karns Quality Foods (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania area)
Key Food (New York City and northern suburbs)
King Kullen (Long Island, Staten Island)
Kings (New Jersey, New York)
Kowalski's (Minnesota)
Kuhn's Quality Foods (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania)
Landis Supermarkets (southeastern Pennsylvania)
Lauer's Supermarket and Bakery (Pasadena and Riviera Beach, Maryland)
Lowes Foods (North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia)
Lowe's Markets (Texas, New Mexico)
Lunds (Minnesota)
Byerly's
Mac's Market (New Hampshire, New York, Vermont)
Macey's Market (northern Utah)
Magruder's (Washington, D.C. area)
Market Basket (southeastern Texas, southwestern Louisiana)
Market of Choice – Oregon

>>>>
 
>




Market Street (D/FW area and West Texas)

Mars (Baltimore, Maryland area)
Marsh (Indiana, Ohio)
O'Malia's
Matherne's Supermarkets (Baton Rouge, Louisiana area)
Martin's Super Markets (Indiana, Michigan)
Mayfair Markets (Hollywood, California)
McCaffrey's (New Jersey, Pennsylvania)
Meijer (Midwest)
Met Foods (New York City, New Jersey, Massachusetts)
SuperOne Foods (Minnesota)
Miller's Fresh Foods (North Dakota)
Minyard's (Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex)
Minyard's
Carnival – a Hispanic/international line, in August 2008 was sold to Grocer's Supply (Houston)
Sack and Save – a discount line[1]
Morton Williams (New York, New Jersey)
Mrs. Green's Natural Market (New York)
Murphy's Marketplace (New Jersey)
Natural Grocers by Vitamin Cottage (CO, UT, WY, ID, MT, NE, MO, KS, OK, TX, NM, AZ)
New Deal Market (California)
New Deal Supermarket (Jackson, Mississippi)
New Seasons Market (Portland, Oregon)
Nash Finch Company (upper Midwest)
Nugget Markets (northern California)
Obriens Market (California)
Omni Foods (Massachusetts and New Hampshire)
Petosa's Family Grocery (Edmonds, Washington)
Piggly Wiggly (southeastern US, Wisconsin)
Plum Market (Detroit area)
Preston-Safeway (central Indiana) – unrelated to Safeway Inc.
Price Chopper (Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Pennsylvania, Vermont) – unrelated to Associated Wholesale Grocers in Kansas/Missouri
Publix (southeastern US)
Quality Foods (Georgia and South Carolina)
Quality Markets (New York and Pennsylvania)
R Ranch Markets (southern California)
Raley's (California, Nevada)
Bel Air Markets
Nob Hill Foods
Ray's Food Place (California, Oregon)
Ream's Food Stores (Northern Utah)
Reasors (eastern Oklahoma)
Red Apple (Oregon and Washington)
Redner's Warehouse Markets (eastern Pennsylvania; also in Delaware and Maryland)
Remke Markets bigg's (Cincinnati, Ohio area)
Rice Supermarkets (Houston, Texas)
Riesbeck Food Markets (Ohio and West Virginia)
Pick 'N Save (east-central Ohio)
Robèrt's Fresh Market (New Orleans, Louisiana area)
Roche Bros. (Massachusetts)
Sudbury Farms (Massachusetts)
Roundy's
Copps Food Center (Wisconsin)
Mariano's Fresh Market (Chicago metropolitan area, Illinois)
Metro Market (Wisconsin)
Pick 'n Save (Wisconsin, Illinois)
Rosauers (Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Washington)
Huckleberry's Natural Market (Spokane, Washington)
Roth's Fresh Markets (Oregon)
Rouse's Supermarket (Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi)
Royal Ahold
Giant-Carlisle (Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia)
Giant-Landover (Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, Washington DC)
Stop & Shop (New England, New Jersey, New York)
Ridley's Family Markets (Idaho, Nevada, Utah, Wyoming)
Save Mart Supermarkets (California: Bay Area, Central Valley; northern Nevada)
FoodMaxx
Lucky Stores (Bay Area, California)
S-Mart Foods (Lodi and Stockton, California)
Schnucks (Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Mississippi, Missouri, Tennessee)
Scolari's Food and Drug (California, Nevada)
Sedano's (Miami, Florida)
Seller's Brothers (Houston, Texas)
Sentry Foods (Wisconsin)
Shaw's and Star Market (New England)
Shop n' Save (Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Missouri, Illinois, Iowa )
ShopRite (Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania)
Sunset Foods (Illinois)
Stater Brothers (California)
Stewart's Shops (New York; Vermont)
Stew Leonard's (Connecticut, New York)
Strack & Van Til (Illinois, Indiana)
Town & Country Food Market – discount division (Indiana; Chicago suburbs)
Ultra Foods – discount division (Indiana; Chicago suburbs)
Straub's Markets (St. Louis, Missouri)
Sullivan's Foods (Illinois)
Sunflower Farmers Market (Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Utah) – owned by founder of Wild Oats
Super One Foods (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, North Dakota)
Superior Grocers (southern California)
Supersol (New York City, Long Island, Westchester)
Supremo Supermarket (New Jersey and Pennsylvania)
Times Supermarkets (Hawaii)
Tops
The Fresh Grocer (Pennsylvania, Delaware)
Thriftway Supermarkets (Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania)
Trade Fair (Queens County, New York City)
Trader Joe's (California, 38 states, Washington, DC)
Treasure Island (Chicago and Wilmette, Illinois) [1]
Trig's (Wisconsin)
Turco's (New York)
Village Market Food Center (Antrim County, Michigan)
Vallarta Supermarkets (Los Angeles; southern California)
Wade's (Virginia)
Wegmans (Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia)
Weis Markets (Pennsylvania, Maryland, New York, New Jersey, West Virginia)
Save-a-Lot (Pennsylvania, New York)
Scot's Lo-Cost (Pennsylvania)
Giant Foods (Binghamton, New York area)
Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market (Florida)
Wayne's Hometown Market (Hoxie, Ar)
Wesselman's (southern Indiana; Louisville, Kentucky area)
Westborn Market (Michigan)
Western Beef (New York City, New Jersey, Florida)
Wilson Farms (New York)
WinCo Foods (Arizona, California, Idaho, Nevada, Oregon, Utah, Washington)
Winn-Dixie* (Florida)
Wise Way (Indiana)
Woodman's Food Market (Illinois, Wisconsin)
Yoke's Fresh Market (Spokane, Washington)
PJP MARKETPLACE (PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA)
Superking Market (California, Orange County)



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Zyphlin said:
I'm not positive, but I believe so as that isn't denying them based on a race, national origin, religion, disability, or Gender (pretty sure Gender now qualifies as part of these laws as well).
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With respect to gender, it depends on the state does it not?
 
Deuce said:
And how about a small town with one grocery store who just wont sell food to those darned negroes welfare queens? Is "this would cause less harm than it used to" really an argument you're making?
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When we get to the point where this sort of scenario is what's causing the greatest concern, what Constitutional justification is there for maintaining a Federal accommodation law?
 
If everyone got behind the idea that we should call apples oranges I imagine we would soon see a headline "Apples, once inconceivable, are now Oranges".

does that make the decision any more or less rational? not really
 
joG said:
Forcing people to behave against their religious beliefs,when they are doing nobody physical harm is revolting, certainly.
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What about forcing them to adhere to your religious beliefs? I guess it is off-topic to refer to a medical procedure but to keep it on marriage....why should people be allowed to force others to conform to their religious beliefs about marriage when they dont believe them?
 
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