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Ferguson Demands High Fees To Turn Over City Files

Lutherf said:
Ferguson demands high fees to turn over city files
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Very good!!

However, that refers to a future search and not one that has already been carried out. Furthermore, it seems contrary to the law which states, according to the article, "Some state open records laws provide records for free or little cost, while others like Missouri can require fees that "result in the lowest charges for search, research and duplication."

Hiring a consulting company to do this will not result in the lowest charges; it will produce the highest charges.
 
tres borrachos said:
You're a smart guy. I know you don't think that the only cost involved in the hourly pay of a worker.

Information costs money. Everything costs money. The city of Ferguson isn't in business to feed the media.

Why would you think they have something to hide if they're giving out the information that they can, for a fee? They're providing it, so obviously they don't have anything to hide. Refusal to provide it would be an indication that they are hiding something.
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From the article
Other governments also have demanded spectacular fees. During the 2008 presidential campaign, for instance, news organizations asked for emails belonging to former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the former Republican vice presidential nominee.

The Anchorage Press said officials at first wanted $6,500 in search fees, leading the newspaper to withdraw its request. Thousands of pages of those emails were ultimately provided to news organizations for about $725 in copying charges.
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'
funny how the right wingers are defending the govt charging people to tell us what they're doing. When Lois Lerner doesn't produce an email, Congress launches an investigation and the wing nuts flip out.
 
sangha said:
Very good!!

However, that refers to a future search and not one that has already been carried out. Furthermore, it seems contrary to the law which states, according to the article, "Some state open records laws provide records for free or little cost, while others like Missouri can require fees that "result in the lowest charges for search, research and duplication."

Hiring a consulting company to do this will not result in the lowest charges; it will produce the highest charges.
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Not necessarily. As I said before, due to the scrutiny surrounding this incident having a third party involved in handling document requests would be "best practices". This simply isn't a normal situation and taking steps that would be considered "extraordinary" under other circumstances are simply prudent in this case.
 
sangha said:
Very good!!

However, that refers to a future search and not one that has already been carried out. Furthermore, it seems contrary to the law which states, according to the article, "Some state open records laws provide records for free or little cost, while others like Missouri can require fees that "result in the lowest charges for search, research and duplication."

Hiring a consulting company to do this will not result in the lowest charges; it will produce the highest charges.
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I used to hire numerous document retrieval companies in and out of Austin. They are very costly. And for a reason. That task can get complicated.
 
sangha said:
From the article
'
funny how the right wingers are defending the govt charging people to tell us what they're doing. When Lois Lerner doesn't produce an email, Congress launches an investigation and the wing nuts flip out.
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The IRS matter is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. That case involves obstruction.
 
Lutherf said:
Not necessarily. As I said before, due to the scrutiny surrounding this incident having a third party involved in handling document requests would be "best practices".
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Yes, you did say that before. However, the fact that you said it earlier doesn't mean that it was true then or true now.
 
Lutherf said:
The IRS matter is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. That case involves obstruction.
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Because when the IRS doesn't produce an email, it's obstruction. When Ferguson doesn't produce an email, it's understandable
 
Oh... my... God. I tell ya, some people. Threads like this remind me that the human species should never be taken too seriously. The arguments in defense of the city charging fees this high are some of the most brainless, moronic, idiotic arguments I have seen regarding any subject in quite a long time. I swear, the only possible "reasonable" explanation is that there's a full moon and several people are feeling the need to be argumentative for argument's sake.
 
radcen said:
Oh... my... God. I tell ya, some people. Threads like this remind me that the human species should never be taken too seriously. The arguments in defense of the city charging fees this high are some of the most brainless, moronic, idiotic arguments I have seen regarding any subject in quite a long time. I swear, the only possible "reasonable" explanation is that there's a full moon and several people are feeling the need to be argumentative for argument's sake.
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And these same people have been going on and on for years about how terrible it is when the Obama admin doesn't release some info (ex IRS emails, classified info about Benghazi, ACA signup #'s, etc)
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Ok. Then I go back again to my original point. The cit government is not a for profit run business.
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:doh
Back to my original point which you clearly didn't answer.

Excon said:
TheDemSocialist said:
Well.. I think its obvious. The city of Ferguson is obviously is hiding something... [/FONT][/COLOR]
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:doh
Prove it.

Prove that this isn't what they normally charge.
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And back also to my second point.
Excon said:
No one has yet to show that the costs are exorbitant, unjustified or done to prevent release of information.
The last claim being idiotic.
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TheDemSocialist said:
I recently had to gather donor info for a person who is running for office. The freedom of information request cost me a total around $20. It was around 40 pages. Was in the office for around 45 minutes.
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That's interesting, but I'm not sure what the relevance is to this discussion.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Ok. Then I go back again to my original point. The cit government is not a for profit run business.
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You're absolutely correct. No government entity is or should be a profit run business.

What specific documents were they looking for anyway? And for what reason?

I'm just curious, did they get what they were looking for in the end (documents)? If so, doesn't it challenge your assertion that they have "something to hide"? I'm not clear on what your major gripe with this story is - the high fees, or the notion that they're hiding something (and if so, what would they be hiding that would impact the Brown shooting)?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
County office.



No idea. Nor should that have to do with anything because the government is not a profit and demand...


What is then? If you have the information please provide it...
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with most requests, i would agree

this is a fairly unusual situation for a small government office

they are being inundated with thousands of requests, from every media outlet in the country

from the biggies like the cnns, abc, ap, all the way down to the local reporters at some small newspaper down south

then you have the requests from the columnists, bloggers, editorialists, and other associated writers all over the internet

do you really think you are comparing apples to apples?

they are supplying the information....for a price

i would suppose they brought on additional staff to help, and some sort of legal representation to go through the stuff before it is sent out
 
gdgyva said:
with most requests, i would agree

this is a fairly unusual situation for a small government office

they are being inundated with thousands of requests, from every media outlet in the country

from the biggies like the cnns, abc, ap, all the way down to the local reporters at some small newspaper down south

then you have the requests from the columnists, bloggers, editorialists, and other associated writers all over the internet

do you really think you are comparing apples to apples?

they are supplying the information....for a price

i would suppose they brought on additional staff to help, and some sort of legal representation to go through the stuff before it is sent out
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A keep on hearing this word "thousands".. But..... "And it follows dozens of records requests to Ferguson under the state's Sunshine Law, which can offer an unvarnished look into government activity."
 
tres borrachos said:
What specific documents were they looking for anyway? And for what reason?
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e-mail accounts following the shooting, police reports, personnel files, text messages.
And because they wanted to see what the city government and officials were doing following the shooting. Doing some reporting, ya know.


I'm just curious, did they get what they were looking for in the end (documents)? If so, doesn't it challenge your assertion that they have "something to hide"? I'm not clear on what your major gripe with this story is - the high fees, or the notion that they're hiding something (and if so, what would they be hiding that would impact the Brown shooting)?
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No.
 
Excon said:
:doh
Back to my original point which you clearly didn't answer.

​


And back also to my second point.
​
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Its called common sense. If you pay an employee 13.50 an hour then charge 10 times that amount...
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Its called common sense. If you pay an employee 13.50 an hour then charge 10 times that amount...
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Clearly you do not know what common sense is.

You haven't proved jack.
Nor is your ridiculously absurd illogical insinuation is "common sense".

The fact that they can get the information they request just shows by "common sense" that nothing is being hidden.


The only thing is cost, and the article pretty much explains that an outside consulting firm is being used, which is reasonable.
 
Excon said:
Clearly you do not know what common sense is.

You haven't proved jack.
Nor is your ridiculously absurd illogical insinuation is "common sense".

The fact that they can get the information they request just shows by "common sense" that nothing is being hidden.


The only thing is cost, and the article pretty much explains that an outside consulting firm is being used, which is reasonable.
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"An average hourly rate for clerical staff to make copies. The FY 2010 average hourly pay rate for clerical staff is $12. This will be the standard fee for staff time for making copies, with a minimum charge of $6 or ½ hour of time." Open Record-Sunshine Requests - DNR
 
TheDemSocialist said:
"An average hourly rate for clerical staff to make copies. The FY 2010 average hourly pay rate for clerical staff is $12. This will be the standard fee for staff time for making copies, with a minimum charge of $6 or ½ hour of time." Open Record-Sunshine Requests - DNR
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Are you not paying attention. "An outside consulting firm is being used, which is reasonable."

Nor is this the ****ing Department of Natural Resources we are talking about.

And your insinuation that they are hiding something is just as absurd.
 
Excon said:
Are you not paying attention. "An outside consulting firm is being used, which is reasonable."
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Ohhh Excon... It was one case they wanted to pay an outside firm, and they didnt call it "reasonable"...
"Ferguson told the AP it wanted nearly $2,000 to pay a consulting firm for up to 16 hours of work to retrieve messages on its own email system, a practice that information technology experts call unnecessary. "
Nor is this the ****ing Department of Natural Resources we are talking about.
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This is standard fees.
And your insinuation that they are hiding something is just as absurd.
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Really? Why all the red tape? Why the extra costs?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Ohhh Excon... It was one case they wanted to pay an outside firm, and they didnt call it "reasonable"...
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:doh One case. :doh
And yes it is reasonable given it is an outside firm being contracted to do the work.
Whether the requester thinks it is reasonable or not matters not one iota. Duh!
It is still reasonable when an outside firm is contracted.


TheDemSocialist said:
This is standard fees.
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:doh
For the DNR which we are not discussing.
For the DNR who is not inundated with requests.
For the DNR who is not contracting with an outside firm.
Stop with the absurdities.


TheDemSocialist said:
Really? Why all the red tape? Why the extra costs?
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Holy ****! Try using some common sense.

Yes really. Duh!
The information can be obtained if the price is paid. That is not hiding a damn thing.
Had it been priced outside of anyone's reach, then you might have had a point. But since it isn't, your insinuation is illogical and absurd.
 
Excon said:
:doh One case. :doh
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Thats literally what the article states. It reads on a case to case basis.

And yes it is reasonable given it is an outside firm being contracted to do the work.
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Again. "a practice that information technology experts call unnecessary. "

Whether the requester thinks it is reasonable or not matters not one iota. Duh!
It is still reasonable when an outside firm is contracted.
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Sooo what experts think is dumb!

:doh
For the DNR which we are not discussing.
For the DNR who is not inundated with requests.
For the DNR who is not contracting with an outside firm.
Stop with the absurdities.
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No. For everything that is accounted with the Sunshine Law.
"The Sunshine Law applies to all records, regardless of what form they are kept in, and to all meetings, regardless of the manner in which they are held.

When responding to a request for copies of its records, the Sunshine Law limits how much a public body can charge for copying and research costs."

Missouri Sunshine law top ten things to know



Section 610-026 Fees for copying public records, limita
" Fees for copying public records, except those records restricted under section 32.091, shall not exceed ten cents per page for a paper copy not larger than nine by fourteen inches, with the hourly fee for duplicating time not to exceed the average hourly rate of pay for clerical staff of the public governmental body. Research time required for fulfilling records requests may be charged at the actual cost of research time.

Fees for providing access to public records maintained on computer facilities, recording tapes or disks, videotapes or films, pictures, maps, slides, graphics, illustrations or similar audio or visual items or devices, and for paper copies larger than nine by fourteen inches shall include only the cost of copies, staff time, which shall not exceed the average hourly rate of pay for staff of the public governmental body "
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C600-699/6100000026.HTM



Holy ****! Try using some common sense.

Yes really. Duh!
The information can be obtained if the price is paid. That is not hiding a damn thing.
Had it been priced outside of anyone's reach, then you might have had a point. But since it isn't, your insinuation is illogical and absurd.
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:lamo
 
The link below will give you an idea about the document retrieval business.

If people think that the Ferguson case document fees are crazy. Try working at a Medical Malpractice Law Firm, which will pay into the tens of thousands for medical records and other types of information necessary to support their cases.

USDRS Rates
 
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