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Military to allow undocumented immigrants to serve

CRUE CAB said:
My grand parents worked for it, they didn't demand it. And no it wasn't. Every read about early 1900s immigrants and what hoops they were made to jump through. Hell, the even spelled my fathers name wrong and told my grand parents "too bad" its the American spelling now.
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The hoops aren't the issue, the numbers are the issue. They didn't sit in Italy waiting for citizenship to open up for 10 years. They took a boat over because the US demanded labor and jumped through processing hoops. There's a very big difference between the ridiculousness of late 19th century early 20th century immigration processing and our current system where we just don't let people in. Do you think those people south of the border wouldn't jump through any hoops possible? If we had an immigration processing center such as Ellis Island though would go through that route to become citizens, instead they are just straight up told there's no room for them.
 
iliveonramen said:
The hoops aren't the issue, the numbers are the issue. They didn't sit in Italy waiting for citizenship to open up for 10 years. They took a boat over because the US demanded labor and jumped through processing hoops. There's a very big difference between the ridiculousness of late 19th century early 20th century immigration processing and our current system where we just don't let people in. Do you think those people south of the border wouldn't jump through any hoops possible? If we had an immigration processing center such as Ellis Island though would go through that route to become citizens, instead they are just straight up told there's no room for them.
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Sorry you don't see the difference.
 
American said:
Military to allow undocumented immigrants to serve


So we have no Americans or legal aliens that can do this? Really?
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Immigrant aliens have been allowed to serve in our nation's military for quite some time. This is nothing new.

Relevant pages from Department of Homeland Security website:

Citizenship for Military Personnel & Family Members | USCIS

Chapter 3, Part I, Volume 12 - Military Service during Hostilities (INA 329) | Policy Manual | USCIS

Also, chapters 322, 328 and 329 of U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Act (as revised, 2013) that apply.

I'm not saying this couldn't be problematic as we've already seen with at least one Muslin spy in our midst and one mass shooting on Ft. Hood Army base from a Army office with ties to Muslim extremism. I am saying, however, this path to U.S. citizenship for foreign born personnel who honorable serve on active duty in our military is nothing new especially during war time or during global hostilities. If they're willing to risk taking a bullet in defense of our country swearing allegiance to same, why would we not grant them citizenship for honorable time served?
 
I think we should just give a blanket amnesty to the Mexican Army and the drug cartels..........allow them to come in with their weapons.........then send them to Iraq to fight ISIS..........the drug cartels might be the only group to strike fear in the ISIS fighters..........after a year of fighting they can come back and get citizenship.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
The government uses so many independent contractors in support of the military, why can't these people be in that category rather than being members of the Armed Forces?
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Because being in the military, serving in defense of "your" country, knowing you may pay the ultimate price with your life during war time IS the biggest risk anyone can take especially for another country you have no binding jurisdictional ties to. There are so many people out there in America who claim to be patriotic but have never worn the uniform of our Armed Services, never made the sacrifice of time, energy, or possibly their very lives in defense of this great nation. And yet they claim patriotism for merely being born here.

Every veteran on this forum understands the risk they took in serving as part of our nation's armed national defense force. I say if a person, male or female, is willing to risk his/her life wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines or Coast Guard, swear allegiance to a foreign country and serve with honor and distinction during war or national crisis/global hostilities, they deserve to become a U.S. citizen.

northwinds said:
I think we should just give a blanket amnesty to the Mexican Army and the drug cartels..........allow them to come in with their weapons.........then send them to Iraq to fight ISIS..........the drug cartels might be the only group to strike fear in the ISIS fighters..........after a year of fighting they can come back and get citizenship.
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You're just being foolish.
 
Objective Voice said:
Because being in the military, serving in defense of "your" country, knowing you may pay the ultimate price with your life during war time IS the biggest risk anyone can take especially for another country you have no binding jurisdictional ties to. There are so many people out there in America who claim to be patriotic but have never worn the uniform of our Armed Services, never made the sacrifice of time, energy, or possibly their very lives in defense of this great nation. And yet they claim patriotism for merely being born here.

Every veteran on this forum understands the risk they took in serving as part of our nation's armed national defense force. I say if a person, male or female, is willing to risk his/her life wearing the uniform of the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines or Coast Guard, swear allegiance to a foreign country and serve with honor and distinction during war or national crisis/global hostilities, they deserve to become a U.S. citizen.



You're just being foolish.
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You didn't answer my question about why these folks can't be independent contractors instead of being in the military.
 
American said:
Maybe we should ask for some legal immigrants to see if they can do the job and earn citizenship. There's more than one way to look at things. You're caught in the trap of believing the premise that illegals deserve any consideration at all, or should be the first considered.
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Well, military service has been an avenue to citizenship in the US for decades. Further, this is being extended to people who grew up here, went to our schools and are already a part of American society. Personally, I think this the best way for them to get the only thing that makes them different from any other kid raised in the US and lucky enough to be born to US citizens....citizenship.
 
Sabanist said:
Including you right,
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Sure, there's no doubt there's a lot of immigrants that would do anything to be an American. I served but being an American is still something I take for granted. I was born here so I'm an American. Those folks are willing to serve in order for a chance to be an American. Shows they REALLY want to be here.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
You didn't answer my question about why these folks can't be independent contractors instead of being in the military.
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I wasn't aware that you asked me such a question, but I'll take it on.

To me it's not the same thing as putting your life on the life in defense of a country you really don't have an allegiance to, but believe in that country's strength, values, traditions and overall way of life and wish to adopt it as your own. As such, I don't see being an independent contractor in the same light. You may volunteer to go "over there" and your life could possibly be in peril, but your incentive is the potential financial gains, not loyalty to your would-be adopted country.
 
American said:
Military to allow undocumented immigrants to serve


So we have no Americans or legal aliens that can do this? Really?
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It may not be a good thing, but stop being so damn partisan, its nothing new.

In July 2002 the manpower demands on the U.S. military of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan prompted President George Bush to sign an Executive Order making all non-citizens on Active Duty during the Global War on Terror eligible for immediate American citizenship. Previously, non-citizens were required to serve on active duty for three years before they could apply for citizenship. By September 2003, there were approximately 37,000 active duty soldiers (or about 3 percent) who were not U.S. citizens. In addition, there were another 13,000 non-citizen reservists.
 
Objective Voice said:
I wasn't aware that you asked me such a question, but I'll take it on.

To me it's not the same thing as putting your life on the life in defense of a country you really don't have an allegiance to, but believe in that country's strength, values, traditions and overall way of life and wish to adopt it as your own. As such, I don't see being an independent contractor in the same light. You may volunteer to go "over there" and your life could possibly be in peril, but your incentive is the potential financial gains, not loyalty to your would-be adopted country.
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All those things can be accounted for without having the person actually being allowed to join the military. A path to citizenship for these people would be enticing. Also, just allowing these people into the military is no assurance of loyalty if they have ulterior motives.
 
Montecresto said:
It may not be a good thing, but stop being so damn partisan, its nothing new.

In July 2002 the manpower demands on the U.S. military of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan prompted President George Bush to sign an Executive Order making all non-citizens on Active Duty during the Global War on Terror eligible for immediate American citizenship. Previously, non-citizens were required to serve on active duty for three years before they could apply for citizenship. By September 2003, there were approximately 37,000 active duty soldiers (or about 3 percent) who were not U.S. citizens. In addition, there were another 13,000 non-citizen reservists.
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But they weren't illegal.
 
Objective Voice said:
Immigrant aliens have been allowed to serve in our nation's military for quite some time. This is nothing new.

Relevant pages from Department of Homeland Security website:

Citizenship for Military Personnel & Family Members | USCIS

Chapter 3, Part I, Volume 12 - Military Service during Hostilities (INA 329) | Policy Manual | USCIS

Also, chapters 322, 328 and 329 of U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Act (as revised, 2013) that apply.

I'm not saying this couldn't be problematic as we've already seen with at least one Muslin spy in our midst and one mass shooting on Ft. Hood Army base from a Army office with ties to Muslim extremism. I am saying, however, this path to U.S. citizenship for foreign born personnel who honorable serve on active duty in our military is nothing new especially during war time or during global hostilities. If they're willing to risk taking a bullet in defense of our country swearing allegiance to same, why would we not grant them citizenship for honorable time served?
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As far as I know, ILLEGALS serving is new.
 
American said:
But they weren't illegal.
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Just five days before Ekaterine Bautista planned to become an American citizen, she got a call from the federal government: Her swearing-in ceremony had been canceled pending further investigation.

Bautista was devastated. An illegal immigrant from Mexico, she had served six years in the U.S. military — including a 13-month tour of duty in Iraq — and was eligible to apply for naturalization under a decades-old law.

Iraq war veteran may be denied citizenship - Los Angeles Times
 
AliHajiSheik said:
All those things can be accounted for without having the person actually being allowed to join the military. A path to citizenship for these people would be enticing. Also, just allowing these people into the military is no assurance of loyalty if they have ulterior motives.
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You gloss over the fine print: National conflict (i.e., "times of war or armed campaign") and "Honorable Discharge".

If you're willing to put your life on the line in defense of this country during armed conflict or war when you don't have anything to gain except U.S. citizenship should you serve honorably and live through the conflict, you deserve to gain U.S. citizenship status. I know people who were born in America and have never served. Talk about "put up or shut up!"

Your fear-mongering is truly un-necessary. If those who volunteer to serve under the guidelines of the program as summarized in the OP returned after having received an Honorable Discharge, why would you deny them the right of U.S. citizenship?
 
American said:
As far as I know, ILLEGALS serving is new.
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Then perhaps you should read the Immigration and Naturalization law and familiarize yourself with the guidelines and the history towhich this thread pertains. And if you think this is something new or just something that came about during the current Obama Administration...

By Executive Order Number 13269, dated July 3, 2002, President Bush declared that all those persons serving honorably in active-duty status in the Armed Forces of the United States at any time on or after September 11, 2001 until a date to be announced, are eligible to apply for naturalization in accordance with the service during hostilities statutory exception in Section 329 of the INA to the naturalization requirements. This means that individuals with even one day of honorable active duty service can apply for citizenship, regardless of how long they have been a resident. Note: Under this provision, individuals who apply for citizenship after discharge must present a DD Form 214, with service characterized as "Honorable," or "General." Those with other characterizations (including Entry Level Separation), are not eligible.
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Becoming a Citizen in the U.S. Military

So, this isn't anything new and I'm fairly certain those who are claiming ignorance on the matter are very much aware of it. It's just fringe distain on an ideological front.

EDIT: Just noticed that Montecresto and myself referenced the same 2002 EO issued by GWB on this matter. While "resident-alien" and "illegal alien" are different statuses, the criteria for U.S. citizenship status is much more stringent under the current plan issued from the Obama Administration than it was under the GWB Administration. Think about it...

One day served whether in armed conflict or not then you can apply...

Serve honorably during hostilities with the appropriate discharge then you can apply...

I say if you're willing to wear the uniform, pick up a riffle and put yourself in harm's way in defense of this great nation, then you deserve the opportunity to become a naturalized U.S. citizen.
 
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American said:
As far as I know, ILLEGALS serving is new.
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Then perhaps you should read the Immigration and Naturalization law and familiarize yourself with the guidelines and the history towhich this thread pertains. And if you think this is something new or just something that came about during the current Obama Administration...

By Executive Order Number 13269, dated July 3, 2002, President Bush declared that all those persons serving honorably in active-duty status in the Armed Forces of the United States at any time on or after September 11, 2001 until a date to be announced, are eligible to apply for naturalization in accordance with the service during hostilities statutory exception in Section 329 of the INA to the naturalization requirements. This means that individuals with even one day of honorable active duty service can apply for citizenship, regardless of how long they have been a resident. Note: Under this provision, individuals who apply for citizenship after discharge must present a DD Form 214, with service characterized as "Honorable," or "General." Those with other characterizations (including Entry Level Separation), are not eligible.
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Becoming a Citizen in the U.S. Military

So, this isn't anything new and I'm fairly certain those who are claiming ignorance on the matter are very much aware of it. It's just fringe distain on an ideological front.
 
Objective Voice said:
You gloss over the fine print: National conflict (i.e., "times of war or armed campaign") and "Honorable Discharge".

If you're willing to put your life on the line in defense of this country during armed conflict or war when you don't have anything to gain except U.S. citizenship should you serve honorably and live through the conflict, you deserve to gain U.S. citizenship status. I know people who were born in America and have never served. Talk about "put up or shut up!"

Your fear-mongering is truly un-necessary. If those who volunteer to serve under the guidelines of the program as summarized in the OP returned after having received an Honorable Discharge, why would you deny them the right of U.S. citizenship?
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Did you reply to the right post?

This is a program to permit these folks to join the military and I see nothing in the article to indicate that they will be eligible for citizenship if they serve honorably or otherwise, so I didn't gloss over anything.

There is also no guarantee that someone will be putting their life on the line although I'm sure there will be a number that will. Not all military positions involve combat, although it is certainly well known that it is possible.

I would not deny these folks citizenship, it is the US government that does. As for fear-mongering, I'll await your reply to see if you replied to the correct post. I've done no such thing in any way, shape or form.
 
Objective Voice said:
Then perhaps you should read the Immigration and Naturalization law and familiarize yourself with the guidelines and the history towhich this thread pertains. And if you think this is something new or just something that came about during the current Obama Administration...



Becoming a Citizen in the U.S. Military

So, this isn't anything new and I'm fairly certain those who are claiming ignorance on the matter are very much aware of it. It's just fringe distain on an ideological front.
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The requirements for eligibility are that the applicant must have served honorably or have separated from the service under honorable conditions, have completed one year or more of military service, and be a legal permanent resident at the time of his or her examination by USCIS on the Form N-400, Application for Naturalization.
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This is important.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
Did you reply to the right post?
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Yes. (See your post #62)

This is a program to permit these folks to join the military and I see nothing in the article to indicate that they will be eligible for citizenship if they serve honorably or otherwise, so I didn't gloss over anything.
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Then perhaps you should study-up on DHS DACA policy not to mention INA law, section 329.

There is also no guarantee that someone will be putting their life on the line although I'm sure there will be a number that will. Not all military positions involve combat, although it is certainly well known that it is possible.
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True on both counts. There is no guarantee that anyone who puts their life on the line in defense of our country won't turn on us. But truth be told there have been far more instances of U.S. citizens turning against their homeland from Benedict Arnold to Edward Snowden than the reverse. So, your concern though warranted isn't a strong valid argument. Also, you're correct again in that not every military position involves combat. Those aliens (resident or otherwise) who would participate under the Military Accessions in the National Interest program would largely be linguist not combatants. But you'd be foolish to think that we've never had foreign linguist go on SpecOp assignments during any of our foreign wars.

I would not deny these folks citizenship, it is the US government that does.
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You're being petty here. Of course YOU wouldn't be personally denying anyone U.S. citizenship status, but I'm willing to be that if you could stamp their paperwork with "REJECTED" or "DENIED" in big, fat red letters you'd do it in a heartbeat!

As for fear-mongering, I'll await your reply to see if you replied to the correct post. I've done no such thing in any way, shape or form.
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Again, see your post #62.
 
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