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No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

upsideguy said:
Why not shoot this guy? He has a REAL gun in a department store.

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He doesn't even have a hand on the gun. Hard to shoot with a packiage of cookies in your hand, or without handling the gun itself, wouldn't you think?
As for red flags, it was the lack of awareness, and the lack of concern/carelessness with handling the "gun" that are the red flags. If you saw someone in Walmart holding what you thought was a rifle, and he displayed a lack of concern, or a lack of the ability to safely handle it, you would pretty likely be worried. I am very familiar with firearms, and I know that I would have been. If I see you walking around holding what I think is a rifle, and I think your finger is on the trigger, I am going to be zoning in on you like a laser.
 
reinoe said:
Ronald Ritchie lied about what happened in the store. He lied about being an "Ex-Marine". And he was dishonorably discharged after 7 months because he had a fradulent enlistment. The guy is a habitual liar and I'm not at all surprised that you're doing what you can to defend that liar by making excuses for him.

He may have believed he was "an ex-marine" too right? He may have believed whatever falsehoods he told to fradulently enlist in the Marines in the first place too right? Ronald Ritchie has a long history of "maybe believing" all kinds of false statements he's made.
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You cannot prove he "lied" about what happened in the store, only that he did not get information correct. As I've asked before, when is giving wrong information out actually lying? Is it anytime a person gives out wrong/bad information, whether intentionally done or not? Or is it only when the information is intentionally given out wrong, the person knowing fully well that it is wrong?
 
lizzie said:
He doesn't even have a hand on the gun. Hard to shoot with a packiage of cookies in your hand, or without handling the gun itself, wouldn't you think?
As for red flags, it was the lack of awareness, and the lack of concern/carelessness with handling the "gun" that are the red flags. If you saw someone in Walmart holding what you thought was a rifle, and he displayed a lack of concern, or a lack of the ability to safely handle it, you would pretty likely be worried. I am very familiar with firearms, and I know that I would have been. If I see you walking around holding what I think is a rifle, and I think your finger is on the trigger, I am going to be zoning in on you like a laser.
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It concerned me a lot that he was swinging it back and forth, even up to waste and chest level, and a couple of times slinging it up on his shoulder. Those are all gestures that should not be done in a public place such a WalMart. Time and place were wrong for how this weapon was being handled. (Some things were just wrong period, no matter time and place, but there were some major things that were definitely time and place dependent.)
 
lizzie said:
If you don't act in a threatening manner, or do something really stupid such as running away, the cops have no reason to shoot. Everything this guy did was a red flag.
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Goodness, he didn't point the weapon at anyone, yell at anyone, pursue anyone - he was holding a pellet gun he picked off the shelf in Walmart while talking on the phone in a quiet corner of Walmart. He didn't move from that position for 5 minutes, people came and went from the area, he didn't turn towards them, point the gun at them, or otherwise even acknowledge them.

And he was 'running away' from a person who just SHOT HIM. You're expecting a person to behave calmly after just getting shot. It's an unfair and entirely unrealistic expectation of anyone in that circumstance.
 
upsideguy said:
Why not shoot this guy? He has a REAL gun in a department store.

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Maybe because he isn't guilty of the obvious "red" flag, like this guy...

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or this guy.



Is Open Carry Dangerous For A Black Man? - Black Man With A Gun

John Crawford Shooting: Open Carry for Whites; Open Season on Blacks - The Root
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The first guy isn't holding the gun at all. No hands on the weapon, not swinging it around. The second guy, same thing. They don't have any hands on those weapons. It has absolutely nothing to do with their skin color and everything to do with the situation, what they are doing with the weapon.
 
roguenuke said:
The first guy isn't holding the gun at all. No hands on the weapon, not swinging it around. The second guy, same thing. They don't have any hands on those weapons. It has absolutely nothing to do with their skin color and everything to do with the situation, what they are doing with the weapon.
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You left one out.... hilarious.
 
JasperL said:
Goodness, he didn't point the weapon at anyone, yell at anyone, pursue anyone - he was holding a pellet gun he picked off the shelf in Walmart while talking on the phone in a quiet corner of Walmart. He didn't move from that position for 5 minutes, people came and went from the area, he didn't turn towards them, point the gun at them, or otherwise even acknowledge them.

And he was 'running away' from a person who just SHOT HIM. You're expecting a person to behave calmly after just getting shot. It's an unfair and entirely unrealistic expectation of anyone in that circumstance.
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Pretty sure she was referring to everything he did before the cops even showed up, such as what he was actually doing with the weapon while in the store, swinging it back and forth, swinging it up to his chest, as if he was going to aim it at someone, swinging it onto his shoulder, making gestures as if he was loading it. And the cops didn't know it was just a pellet/BB gun, only that it was a rifle. And the reports they had said that he was aiming it at people. The guy who called and even some of the other people who came near him did believe he had a real rifle and that he was a threat.
 
JasperL said:
Good idea ignoring the video! That guy also didn't have a hand on the gun....
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Which guy didn't have a hand on the gun? Both the guy in the third video and the guy who got shot and killed in WalMart were touching the gun. The guy in the video you posted can not be proven to only be harassed because he is black. Where did this take place? When? What sort of area is it? What is the racial makeup? The crime statistics? Does anyone in the area know the guy? What if it was a white guy doing the same thing, carrying an AR-15 in that area (first) rather than a black guy? Do you know what would have happened or are you only speculating? Have no white guys ever been harassed, even arrested for openly carrying an AR15 or some other weapon?

Just a few years back, a white woman was harassed, I believe by the cops but I know by the park, for having her holstered weapon at her son's soccer game. They revoked her CCP for it.
 
roguenuke said:
Pretty sure she was referring to everything he did before the cops even showed up, such as what he was actually doing with the weapon while in the store, swinging it back and forth, swinging it up to his chest, as if he was going to aim it at someone, swinging it onto his shoulder, making gestures as if he was loading it. And the cops didn't know it was just a pellet/BB gun, only that it was a rifle. And the reports they had said that he was aiming it at people. The guy who called and even some of the other people who came near him did believe he had a real rifle and that he was a threat.
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I suppose, and I'm including myself, you see what you want to see. When he's swinging the gun, no one is in front of him. It's not like he's facing down the aisle, and with kids in the direction he's facing, the gun is swinging back and forth in a way that points the muzzle at the kids. He's facing the shelf.

And I've said many times I think the cops mishandled this, but I can understand why - it was a perfect storm of a customer picking up a product off the shelf in a store that sells them, and it's a pellet gun, a delusional caller, and a trigger happy police force who based on the caller had them believing they were confronting a mad man. I understand WHY, and I am not at all sure I'd have indicted the police officer, but that's different than blaming the victim and absolving the police of any of their (to me obvious) mistakes, mainly not giving the guy even a remote chance to comply with the order to put down the gun.
 
roguenuke said:
Which guy didn't have a hand on the gun? Both the guy in the third video and the guy who got shot and killed in WalMart were touching the gun. The guy in the video you posted can not be proven to only be harassed because he is black. Where did this take place? When? What sort of area is it? What is the racial makeup? The crime statistics? Does anyone in the area know the guy? What if it was a white guy doing the same thing, carrying an AR-15 in that area (first) rather than a black guy? Do you know what would have happened or are you only speculating? Have no white guys ever been harassed, even arrested for openly carrying an AR15 or some other weapon?

Just a few years back, a white woman was harassed, I believe by the cops but I know by the park, for having her holstered weapon at her son's soccer game. They revoked her CCP for it.
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Come on. You can't support the guys in Walmart with their ARs then nitpick the video. At least try to be consistent.

And what difference does it make about the area, crime stats, racial makeup? We do know all the cops are white! And you can only open carry your small private part compensation device in a white, safe neighborhood? You're making the videographer's point for him.
 
JasperL said:
I suppose, and I'm including myself, you see what you want to see. When he's swinging the gun, no one is in front of him. It's not like he's facing down the aisle, and with kids in the direction he's facing, the gun is swinging back and forth in a way that points the muzzle at the kids. He's facing the shelf.

And I've said many times I think the cops mishandled this, but I can understand why - it was a perfect storm of a customer picking up a product off the shelf in a store that sells them, and it's a pellet gun, a delusional caller, and a trigger happy police force who based on the caller had them believing they were confronting a mad man. I understand WHY, and I am not at all sure I'd have indicted the police officer, but that's different than blaming the victim and absolving the police of any of their (to me obvious) mistakes, mainly not giving the guy even a remote chance to comply with the order to put down the gun.
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Do you realize a high powered rifle can easily shoot through the shelving and merchandise? Do you realize bullets can ricochet?
 
JasperL said:
I suppose, and I'm including myself, you see what you want to see. When he's swinging the gun, no one is in front of him. It's not like he's facing down the aisle, and with kids in the direction he's facing, the gun is swinging back and forth in a way that points the muzzle at the kids. He's facing the shelf.

And I've said many times I think the cops mishandled this, but I can understand why - it was a perfect storm of a customer picking up a product off the shelf in a store that sells them, and it's a pellet gun, a delusional caller, and a trigger happy police force who based on the caller had them believing they were confronting a mad man. I understand WHY, and I am not at all sure I'd have indicted the police officer, but that's different than blaming the victim and absolving the police of any of their (to me obvious) mistakes, mainly not giving the guy even a remote chance to comply with the order to put down the gun.
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The victim did have some culpability here. It isn't totally his fault at all. It is a combination of factors that just resulted in a terrible and tragic ending. But he does hold some of the blame, along with the caller and even the cops a little bit. But since there is no way to determine who is most to blame and if someone in the situation did anything that could be considered "criminal", then no charges should be filed.
 
countryboy said:
Do you realize a high powered rifle can easily shoot through the shelving and merchandise? Do you realize bullets can ricochet?
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Of course, but if that's what someone's worried about, then it's him demonstrating he's incompetent to properly handle a firearm, not an imminent threat that requires IMMEDIATE deadly force.
 
roguenuke said:
The victim did have some culpability here. It isn't totally his fault at all. It is a combination of factors that just resulted in a terrible and tragic ending. But he does hold some of the blame, along with the caller and even the cops a LOT. But since there is no way to determine who is most to blame and if someone in the situation did anything that could be considered "criminal", then no charges should be filed.
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Other than the small, bolded correction, I agree.
 
JasperL said:
Come on. You can't support the guys in Walmart with their ARs then nitpick the video. At least try to be consistent.

And what difference does it make about the area, crime stats, racial makeup? We do know all the cops are white! And you can only open carry your small private part compensation device in a white, safe neighborhood? You're making the videographer's point for him.
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I wouldn't have a problem with someone telling the guy in WalMart with the AR that he shouldn't be there. I don't approve of having those things out in public like that, showing them off as if they are a toy or as if you are paranoid that Armageddon will break out within so little time that you need something like that to protect you every second of the day. I find it immature and absolutely not being a responsible gun owner. The most responsible gun owner I saw (just from the pics) was the guy pumping gas. Absolutely nothing wrong with what he was doing. He is a responsible gun owner, not showing off, just having a gun for personal protection. And that doesn't scream "I'm a paranoid ****", "look at my big gun", or "let's see if I can set some people up to harass me so I can claim that it is due to xxx factor instead of me just being an asshole".

And in fact, I'm not saying that the guy walking down the road with the AR should have been arrested just because of that. I'm saying though that it was a setup, which is obvious from the video and the reaction. And I'm saying that there is absolutely no need to have something like that out in the open for "protection". Is it a person's right to have it? Absolutely. But just like freedom of speech, some people should grow up and act responsibly with those rights.
 
JasperL said:
Other than the small, bolded correction, I agree.
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No. The cops did not do "a lot" wrong. They were basing their reaction off of the information they had and a guy who could have been a threat. They did not have any information that told them otherwise for this situation, at the time.
 
JasperL said:
Of course, but if that's what someone's worried about, then it's him demonstrating he's incompetent to properly handle a firearm, not an imminent threat that requires IMMEDIATE deadly force.
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Mishandling a high powered rifle in a crowded public area isn't an imminent threat?
 
lizzie said:
He doesn't even have a hand on the gun. Hard to shoot with a packiage of cookies in your hand, or without handling the gun itself, wouldn't you think?
As for red flags, it was the lack of awareness, and the lack of concern/carelessness with handling the "gun" that are the red flags. If you saw someone in Walmart holding what you thought was a rifle, and he displayed a lack of concern, or a lack of the ability to safely handle it, you would pretty likely be worried. I am very familiar with firearms, and I know that I would have been. If I see you walking around holding what I think is a rifle, and I think your finger is on the trigger, I am going to be zoning in on you like a laser.
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Since someone who about to shoot someone would have some concern for how their handling the gun, someone who displays no concern would lead me to suspect that he was not about to shoot someone

I would worry about his stupidity, but I'm always on the lookout for stupid people. They don't need a gun to hurt someone

BTW, since when is "worried" a justification for shooting someone?
 
countryboy said:
Mishandling a high powered rifle in a crowded public area isn't an imminent threat?
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Let's try this again, with more emphasis: "not an imminent threat that requires IMMEDIATE deadly force."

I was at a charity dove hunt two weeks ago and saw several people mishandling their shotguns. The response one near me got was, (paraphrased) - "Don't swing on low birds a******. Watch what you're doing!" No one called the SWAT team....
 
roguenuke said:
No. The cops did not do "a lot" wrong. They were basing their reaction off of the information they had and a guy who could have been a threat. They did not have any information that told them otherwise for this situation, at the time.
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It might be just me, but not giving a person time to obey an order before killing him is a 'lot' wrong.
 
roguenuke said:
You cannot prove he "lied" about what happened in the store, only that he did not get information correct. As I've asked before, when is giving wrong information out actually lying? Is it anytime a person gives out wrong/bad information, whether intentionally done or not? Or is it only when the information is intentionally given out wrong, the person knowing fully well that it is wrong?
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I like how it is out of bounds to impute any motive for the caller, even though we know he got things wrong and has a history of lying, but we can't do the same for Crawford who did nothing wrong.

roguenuke said:
It concerned me a lot that he was swinging it back and forth, even up to waste and chest level, and a couple of times slinging it up on his shoulder. Those are all gestures that should not be done in a public place such a WalMart. Time and place were wrong for how this weapon was being handled. (Some things were just wrong period, no matter time and place, but there were some major things that were definitely time and place dependent.)
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Yes, swinging a gun is something that shouldn't be done

Shooting a man who was not threatening anyone is OK

countryboy said:
Mishandling a high powered rifle in a crowded public area isn't an imminent threat?
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No, it's not and at the time the police shot him, he was not mishandling the gun
 
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JasperL said:
Let's try this again, with more emphasis: "not an imminent threat that requires IMMEDIATE deadly force."

I was at a charity dove hunt two weeks ago and saw several people mishandling their shotguns. The response one near me got was, (paraphrased) - "Don't swing on low birds a******. Watch what you're doing!" No one called the SWAT team....
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Time and place do matter here. It is not common for someone to be walking around a WalMart, with a weapon, let alone swinging it around, while it would be extremely common for people to have weapons at a dove hunt. It is probably not even that rare for people to be mishandling those weapons. Audience also comes into play here. The audience at a WalMart is not going to be anything like the "audience" at a dove hunt when it comes to weapons.
 
JasperL said:
Let's try this again, with more emphasis: "not an imminent threat that requires IMMEDIATE deadly force."

I was at a charity dove hunt two weeks ago and saw several people mishandling their shotguns. The response one near me got was, (paraphrased) - "Don't swing on low birds a******. Watch what you're doing!" No one called the SWAT team....
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Hyperbole and drama noted. :rolleyes:
 
JasperL said:
It might be just me, but not giving a person time to obey an order before killing him is a 'lot' wrong.
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It's just you. You have no way of determining that based on a grainy video synced with audio of a 911 call released for media consumption only. And not suitable for in depth analysis.
 
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