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No indictment in police shooting death of Ohio man carrying air rifle

americanwoman said:
I know most Walmarts and stores like that have a sporting section, I don't see why they can't keep those type of guns there, if they already don't, and then take them up front to be purchased before leaving. I don't think it's to anyone's benefit to have people walking around stores with realistic looking guns that may cause concern from other shoppers.
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The CNN article clearly implies that air guns are not to be open-access according to Walmart policy. The gun was left out improperly. That's why the cops believed the gun was from outside.


lizzie said:
I'll tell you something that struck me as very odd. At Walmart stores I have been to, the air rifles are in boxes. They aren't displayed like regular rifles in a case. If he was carrying an air rifle off the shelf, then he was doubly stupid for taking it out of the box and carrying it around the store. If he took it into the store with him, he was doubly stupid for not informing every single employee of what he was doing. People are stupid when it comes to guns, and you have to allow for the stupidity of the average joe not knowing what they are looking at. Just as another poster here claimed that air rifle are just as deadly as real rifles, the general public who doesn't shoot, has no idea what they are talking about, and should NOT be given the benefit of the doubt.

As for the ammo, air rifle pellets at Walmart come in two calibers. .177 and .22. You do not need the air rifle with you to find it. They comes in little metal cans, and the caliber of the airgun is usually marked on the barrel or the breach, and the cans are clearly marked as to caliber.
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See my note above.
 
Tettsuo said:
Please explain.
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It was not JUST that he had what appeared to be a real rifle. There were other circumstances.

1. The police presumed the gun was from outside. This means someone brought a rifle into Walmart... why?
2. 9/11 had been called and the caller claimed the gun wielding man was acting aggressive and loading the weapon.
3. The man apparently had some trouble with ~"drop the weapon".

All of these things contributed to the "perfect storm" that resulted in this tragedy.

When you pretend that a single aspect of the event justified "automatic execution", you are ignoring context in a pathetic attempt to demonize the police for what, by all accounts, appears to be a tragedy.
 
ecofarm said:
The CNN article clearly implies that air guns are not to be open-access according to Walmart policy. The gun was left out improperly. That's why the cops believed the gun was from outside.
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well thats not exactly correct, if it was secured that would be for theft prevention and each store and region have thier own policies on that. The gun should have been back in its box but it could just as easily have been taken out of its box by any customer.
 
Crovax said:
well thats not exactly correct, if it was secured that would be for theft prevention and each store and region have thier own policies on that. The gun should have been back in its box but it could just as easily have been taken out of its box by any customer.
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I'm not sure how easy that is. We don't know the policy beyond the CNN article noting that the gun was not supposed to be so easily accessed and that this slip-up, by the store, added to the confusion.
 
ecofarm said:
I'm not sure how easy that is. We don't know the policy beyond the CNN article noting that the gun was not supposed to be so easily accessed and that this slip-up, by the store, added to the confusion.
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I do know the policy
 
Crovax said:
I do know the policy
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According to the article, the gun was supposed to be wrapped (shrink wrap?) and in its box. It was not, it was sitting out in the open which is against store policy.

We don't know if the young man would have opened a box and removed the wrapping, but I'm guessing he would not have.

I don't get why it is important for you to ignore this factor.
 
ecofarm said:
It was not JUST that he had what appeared to be a real rifle. There were other circumstances.

1. The police presumed the gun was from outside. This means someone brought a rifle into Walmart... why?
2. 9/11 had been called and the caller claimed the gun wielding man was acting aggressive and loading the weapon.
3. The man apparently had some trouble with ~"drop the weapon".

All of these things contributed to the "perfect storm" that resulted in this tragedy.

When you pretend that a single aspect of the event justified "automatic execution", you are ignoring context in a pathetic attempt to demonize the police for what, by all accounts, appears to be a tragedy.
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1 - Irrelevant. He never threatened them.
2 - The police can use their own eyes to judge the situation... as they were taught. The fact that they did not, is a stain in them and their behavior.
3 - He was on the phone.

For me the bottom line is, he was never a threat to the officers or anyone in the store. They came in looking to shoot from what's on the video. They are there to protect and serve. Who were they protecting? Who's being served? The man was never a threat to them as he never took a threatening posture.

Honestly, I'm baffled by your defense. The video does not show a man threatening anyone.
 
ecofarm said:
According to the article, the gun was supposed to be wrapped (shrink wrap?) and in its box. It was not, it was sitting out in the open which is against store policy.

We don't know if the young man would have opened a box and removed the wrapping, but I'm guessing he would not have.

I don't get why it is important for you to ignore this factor.
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It's an open carry state. Seeing a gun or a rifle in the hands of a person does not automatically make them a threat. Well, it shouldn't.
 
Tettsuo said:
Honestly, I'm baffled by your defense. The video does not show a man threatening anyone.
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My defense is based on logic and reason, while considering all of the unfortunate factors that lead to the tragedy. Your narrative ends at the same place it begins: "cops are evil", that's circular logic.


Tettsuo said:
It's an open carry state. Seeing a gun or a rifle in the hands of a person does not automatically make them a threat. Well, it shouldn't.
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You're AGAIN ignoring all of the circumstances and presenting a strawman.

You're not even making the slightest effort to examine this honestly. Good day.
 
I think cops are a dichotomy, in one sense they do a dangerous job with little appreciation or compensation for the comparative risk. But the very reason I believe a majority become police are for the power and ego trip that it gives them. Especially the younger ones, who haven't learned that being over zealous isn't going to change the world as much as wear them out. I've known for quite awhile that being polite and stroking their ego goes a long way in avoiding judgment calls. The reasons for many professionals doing what they do are similar with EMT's, firemen, leadership positions etc, it's a merit badge to wear.
 
ecofarm said:
My defense is based on logic and reason, while considering all of the unfortunate factors that lead to the tragedy. Your narrative ends at the same place it begins: "cops are evil", that's circular logic.




You're AGAIN ignoring all of the circumstances and presenting a strawman.

You're not even making the slightest effort to examine this honestly. Good day.
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Mischaracterizing my argument is weaksauce, particularly when I've clearly stated my argument.

At no point did the man threaten the officers or anyone in the store. If he isn't a threat, there's no reason to shoot.

And by the way, you're ignoring the simple fact that even if he was carrying a loaded weapon, he has to the right too in Ohio.
 
aseidner said:
No indictment in police shooting at Ohio Walmart - CNN.com

Granted that walking around in a store with a realistic looking air rifle is a terrible idea, I really think the police went way overboard here. Watching the surveillance video, it does not even appear that the police gave Crawford a chance to surrender, opting to shoot first and ask questions later. The 911 caller shares some of the blame for this incident as well, as he describes Crawford as if he's behaving in a threatening manner when he clearly is not. Some other customers walk by and do even appear remotely threatened or worried. The whole thing was a bad situation for sure, but I think that the police were way too trigger happy and should face charges.

Here is the surveillance video for reference (shooting begins at 4:57): Surveillance video and 911 audio of Beavercreek Walmart shooting | Local News - WLWT Home
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We're a shoot first, ask questions later sort of society apparently.

Who needs to be civil and respect the rights and life of your fellow man when you can just arm the government to the teeth and allow them to do whatever they want?
 
ecofarm said:
According to the article, the gun was supposed to be wrapped (shrink wrap?) and in its box. It was not, it was sitting out in the open which is against store policy.

We don't know if the young man would have opened a box and removed the wrapping, but I'm guessing he would not have.

I don't get why it is important for you to ignore this factor.
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im not ignoring the factor, im just pointing out the facts.

If you read my other posts in the thread I agree with most of what you're saying, im not trying to make excuses for the kid. Im just saying it would not be difficult to get one of those out of the box and could have even been done by another customer
 
Tettsuo said:
It's an open carry state. Seeing a gun or a rifle in the hands of a person does not automatically make them a threat. Well, it shouldn't.
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i dont think you understand how open carry works
 
grip said:
I think cops are a dichotomy, in one sense they do a dangerous job with little appreciation or compensation for the comparative risk. But the very reason I believe a majority become police are for the power and ego trip that it gives them. Especially the younger ones, who haven't learned that being over zealous isn't going to change the world as much as wear them out. I've known for quite awhile that being polite and stroking their ego goes a long way in avoiding judgment calls. The reasons for many professionals doing what they do are similar with EMT's, firemen, leadership positions etc, it's a merit badge to wear.
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Its amazing you know the telos of others. Im a Paramedic (and as required, before that was an EMT) and I sure as hell didn't get into it for any reason other than to get my hands dirty in medicine as young as possible.

What do you do, so I can speculate on your aims?
 
Tettsuo said:
Mischaracterizing my argument is weaksauce, particularly when I've clearly stated my argument.

At no point did the man threaten the officers or anyone in the store. If he isn't a threat, there's no reason to shoot.

And by the way, you're ignoring the simple fact that even if he was carrying a loaded weapon, he has to the right too in Ohio.
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That "argument" is based on ignoring circumstances, as illustrated by your manic context drops.

If it was someone that had brought an assault rifle into the store from outside, was acting aggressively and loading the weapon, and then refused to put the weapon down when confronted by police... would you be making the same argument? What if it was a dumbass redneck militia member that had done so? I've a feeling that then you'd be ranting about how he got what he deserved because he threatened everyone by carrying an assault rifle into the store and acting stupid with it and refusing to disarm.
 
US Conservative said:
Its amazing you know the telos of others. Im a Paramedic (and as required, before that was an EMT) and I sure as hell didn't get into it for any reason other than to get my hands dirty in medicine as young as possible.

What do you do, so I can speculate on your aims?
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Did you miss the part where I said a majority, not all? And I never said that it was a bad reason, ego is a big part of our person.

I don't believe you probably even know why you subconsciously got into your field, so I'll accept your explanation.

Don't worry about what I do, it's none of your business, unless I say it is.
 
Crovax said:
im not ignoring the factor, im just pointing out the facts.

If you read my other posts in the thread I agree with most of what you're saying, im not trying to make excuses for the kid. Im just saying it would not be difficult to get one of those out of the box and could have even been done by another customer
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It's difficult enough, and against the rules, to dissuade someone of limited capacity (for whatever reason) from attempting to do so. The gun being easily available presumably contributed to the tragedy. Wanna bet, Walmart gets sued?
 
grip said:
Did you miss the part where I said a majority, not all? And I never said that it was a bad reason, ego is a big part of our person.

I don't believe you probably even know why you subconsciously got into your field, so I'll accept your explanation.

Don't worry about what I do, it's none of your business, unless I say it is.
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Why dont you tell me why I subconsciously got into my field, you seem to know for everyone else.

Im sure whatever you do for a living, you do it for the worst reasons. :roll:
 
americanwoman said:
Did you watch the video? You can see them approach at 8;26;54 to the aisle, the you can actually hear them at 8;26;55 scream something at the guy that sounds like drop the gun, at 8;26;56 they guy has his knees bended with the gun pointed down, like he is going to drop the gun, and then at 8;26;57 you hear the shots and see the guy on the ground. Right before starting from 8;26;51 you can see a shadow from the cop. The guy is still standing there like nothing so it's obvious by that and the lack of sound, which you can clearly hear when the cops do start to talk and approach the guy, that there was no type of negotiation or confrontation. The approached and shot plain and simple. It's there on camera with audio and a second by second account.

The caller also watched multiple people walk in and out of the aisle with no issues or threat, although he claimed there was - @ 8;25;44 he claims he pointed it at two children when he didn't even have it raised in the air. And point out where the guy was reloading it like the caller claimed.
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I watched the video (from the link in this thread). You could not see the other side of the aisle, the far back, where at least one of the cops came from. And the only people that came into the area were one employee, who didn't even glance in the guy's direction, a group of three who sees him and moves past without going anywhere close, and a family, mother and two kids looking at fish. The woman moved her kids out into the garden area after she saw the guy then looked to try to get the attention of someone once in there. Then she walked back inside, without going into view of the other camera. You couldn't possibly hear when/if the other police officer, the one on the other side, confronted him prior to anything. But you can see the guy raise the rifle up and down several times. We also have no idea how close the video matches the audio since the audio we hear is coming from the 9/11 call (at least from the link), not from the video recording itself. We have no idea what angle the caller was at.

Three seconds though is more than enough time for him to drop the gun. Plus, he was waiting for something to happen, that is obvious from the video we have. No one stays in one exact spot, where no one else is, in WalMart, not picking up items, not talking to anyone, not doing anything but waving around/moving a gun unless they are waiting for something to happen. There is definitely more to this story than that video (from store cameras) and the call.
 
CanadaJohn said:
This is absolutely true - from the video, just before the suspect is shot, a mother and two kids enter the pet supplies aisle where the suspect is and while they don't appear to interact, the mother and kids don't appear to feel the least bit threatened and the suspect doesn't aim the rifle at them or even seem to acknowledge they're there.

The connection of the video surveillance and the 911 audio is a little confusing to me because we're left with the impression that the caller is seeing exactly what's on the video when the truth is, I believe, that the caller is somewhere down in the store observing the suspect from a totally different angle. The caller may be seeing things we aren't in the video but it's clear his account of what the suspect is doing is patently false in many respects.
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Bull. I saw the mother glance over at the guy, say something to the kids, and they left into the garden section, eventhough it looked like they were going to be getting fish. Then she starts looking for someone, probably an employee and it appears like she is gesturing for someone to make a phone call. She walks immediately the other way when she steps back inside, away from the guy with the gun. She obviously felt somewhat threatened by him. Now, I didn't see him point the gun at anyone, however, that doesn't mean the guy talking didn't believe he did. Afterall, we have no idea what angle the guy talking is seeing this from. The guy with the gun was moving the gun around much of the time, swinging it up and down at least.
 
ecofarm said:
It's difficult enough, and against the rules, to dissuade someone of limited capacity (for whatever reason) from attempting to do so. The gun being easily available presumably contributed to the tragedy. Wanna bet, Walmart gets sued?
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im sure walmart will get sued we always get sued. In a normal walmart store the gun is in the box unsecured and easy to open. That walmarts policy is to have it spider wrapped for anti-theft purposes. So while it might have contributed to the tragedy, it would not be so uncommon to see an air gun outside its box.
 
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