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White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install sol

Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

JasperL said:
Whether you support it or not, we ARE subsidizing oil and gas by $10s or hundreds of $billions per year, every year, and have for many decades. So either need to raise gas taxes by a huge amount to cover the direct and indirect oil subsidies, or solar is operating at a huge competitive disadvantage to heavily subsidized oil and gas.
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That's nice, so? Sounds like a product not ready to compete on the market. You compete on the market you have, not the one you dream off. Solar needs to be more efficient to compete. It's not. Not yet at least.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

clownboy said:
That's nice, so? Sounds like a product not ready to compete on the market. You compete on the market you have, not the one you dream off. Solar needs to be more efficient to compete. It's not. Not yet at least.
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OK, so you're for Uncle Sugar Daddy picking and winners and losers, with $trillions in cumulative subsidies for fossil fuels, at least $10s of billions, almost surely $100s of billions, PER YEAR in subsidies. Good to know, but I disagree.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

Anthony60 said:
Yes, if we wanted solar panels, we would demand them. We certainly don't need the government getting involved and training people, putting our money into these companies, and then having them fail and lose our money because there is no demand! I just can't believe they are pulling this crap again. I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT INVESTING MY TAX DOLLARS IN SOLAR PANELS!

One, they don't know what the hell they are doing, and two, they already tried and failed. So what, they are doing the same thing again? I know Obama is an idiot, but jeez.
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One way to make sure a government program last forever and each year you get more money for that program is for it not to work. Then the government figures it would work if only more money was applied or given to it and hence, failure is rewarded more and more as time goes by.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

JasperL said:
Whether you support it or not, we ARE subsidizing oil and gas by $10s or hundreds of $billions per year, every year, and have for many decades. So either need to raise gas taxes by a huge amount to cover the direct and indirect oil subsidies, or solar is operating at a huge competitive disadvantage to heavily subsidized oil and gas.
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I realize those subsides exist. I also realize they shouldn't. I don't support one wrong thing just because another wrong thing exists, though. Corporate subsidies need to go the way of the Dodo, period.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

LagerHead said:
I realize those subsides exist. I also realize they shouldn't. I don't support one wrong thing just because another wrong thing exists, though. Corporate subsidies need to go the way of the Dodo, period.
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[Edit - sorry, confused you with clownboy in this response - my apologies... ]

But you can't recognize the subsidies exist then claim that solar can't compete. Of course it can't - not with the subsidies of solar's competitor.

And if you say the subsidies shouldn't exist then you must support measures that would end the subsidies. The only way I know of to offset the oil subsidies, for example, is to levy a very large tax on gasoline, similar to levels seen in Europe, to capture the negative externalities of oil in our economy. That would level the playing field.

Or we could subsidize solar. And given the huge negative and regressive impact of a large gas tax increase on the poor and working and middle classes, I'd far prefer reasonable subsidies of solar and other alternatives as those energy sources get ramped up so that economies of scale emerge sooner rather than later.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

JasperL said:
[Edit - sorry, confused you with clownboy in this response - my apologies... ]

But you can't recognize the subsidies exist then claim that solar can't compete. Of course it can't - not with the subsidies of solar's competitor.

And if you say the subsidies shouldn't exist then you must support measures that would end the subsidies. The only way I know of to offset the oil subsidies, for example, is to levy a very large tax on gasoline, similar to levels seen in Europe, to capture the negative externalities of oil in our economy. That would level the playing field.

Or we could subsidize solar. And given the huge negative and regressive impact of a large gas tax increase on the poor and working and middle classes, I'd far prefer reasonable subsidies of solar and other alternatives as those energy sources get ramped up so that economies of scale emerge sooner rather than later.
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LOL !!

Solar can't compete with MASSIVE amounts of Subsidies with or without its "competitor".

Hell just look at the absolute disaster Germany's Green energy " revolution " has become

Solar is subsidized directly by the Government and the German citizens.

To the point where the average German citizen pays 300 percent more for their electricity than Americans do.

GREEN ENERGY is such a worthless technology.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

JasperL said:
[Edit - sorry, confused you with clownboy in this response - my apologies... ]

But you can't recognize the subsidies exist then claim that solar can't compete. Of course it can't - not with the subsidies of solar's competitor.
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Then it's a good thing that I didn't say that.

JasperL said:
And if you say the subsidies shouldn't exist then you must support measures that would end the subsidies. The only way I know of to offset the oil subsidies, for example, is to levy a very large tax on gasoline, similar to levels seen in Europe, to capture the negative externalities of oil in our economy. That would level the playing field.
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By "offset the oil subsidies" I assume that you mean in such a way that gas prices stay the same, or pretty darn close to it. If I am wrong, stop reading here. ;)

The US subsidizes the oil industry to the tune of about $4 - 4.5 billion/year. Considering that in 2013 the US consumed approximately 6.89 billion barrels of oil, that works out to about $1.53 per barrel, or about $0.04/gallon (6.89 billion barrels/$4.5 billion = 1.53 & 1.53/42 gallons per barrel = 0.036, rounded up to $0.04 per gallon). I'm all for it. Let's raise the price of gas 4 cents per gallon and stop picking winners and losers.

JasperL said:
Or we could subsidize solar.
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Or we could subsidize neither, give the money back to those to whom it belongs in the first place, i.e. those who worked and earned it, and let them, i.e. the market pick the winner. Pretty radical idea, huh?

JasperL said:
And given the huge negative and regressive impact of a large gas tax increase on the poor and working and middle classes, I'd far prefer reasonable subsidies of solar and other alternatives as those energy sources get ramped up so that economies of scale emerge sooner rather than later.
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Well, since I don't think that increase would be that much using the math shown above, I say we stop subsidizing...well, everything.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

Helix said:
sounds good. beats spending tax dollars on endless war.
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This what you call throwing good money after bad, a government speciality. Only made possible by people who think it is a good idea.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

LagerHead said:
The US subsidizes the oil industry to the tune of about $4 - 4.5 billion/year. Considering that in 2013 the US consumed approximately 6.89 billion barrels of oil, that works out to about $1.53 per barrel, or about $0.04/gallon (6.89 billion barrels/$4.5 billion = 1.53 & 1.53/42 gallons per barrel = 0.036, rounded up to $0.04 per gallon). I'm all for it. Let's raise the price of gas 4 cents per gallon and stop picking winners and losers.
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I don't think that's a fair accounting at all. The health costs alone from pollution caused by burning fossil fuels is estimated to be between $300B-$800B per YEAR. If the 'real' costs are only 1/10th that, that's 60-160 Solyndra's per year in subsidies. And surely you'd concede some large amount of the cost of our ME adventures is tied directly to that regions status as a major oil producer and so are indirect subsidies of fossil fuels.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

CanadaJohn said:
You don't have to look as far as Germany - just look north to Ontario, Canada, where our idiotic government has gone full in on solar and wind power, plastering giant wind monstrosities where nobody wants them, paying exorbitant rates to those willing to foul their land with the things, increasing our electricity rates by double and triple with increases projected out for years, mothballing all coal plants claiming that solar and wind will replace that production yet having to build new gas fired plants all over the place because solar and wind aren't reliable, selling off excess power at a loss to neighbouring jurisdictions because of commitments to pay for solar and wind first even if it's not needed, and driving manufacturing out of the province because electricity rates are no long competitive in a province where electricity rates were always an asset.

It is absolute lunacy.
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This is true... even though the tech to have 99.9% clean burning coal, where we have supplies that could power the world with the stuff for centuries rather than forcing the boondoggles that have come from green energy. The fact is that solar power, especially in Canada, is a lost cause...

Would be better off aiming for geothermal... or nuclear, if they can fight the urge to put them on fault lines.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

JasperL said:
I don't think that's a fair accounting at all. The health costs alone from pollution caused by burning fossil fuels is estimated to be between $300B-$800B per YEAR. If the 'real' costs are only 1/10th that, that's 60-160 Solyndra's per year in subsidies. And surely you'd concede some large amount of the cost of our ME adventures is tied directly to that regions status as a major oil producer and so are indirect subsidies of fossil fuels.
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You're adding things to the cost that don't even play into this equation. We're only talking about money that is taken from taxpayers and given to the oil companies. That's what a subsidy is. If solar power is so incredibly kick-ass and affordable, it really doesn't need to be subsidized. The only reason oil companies receive these large subsidies is that your politicians are for sale. It certainly isn't because they need it to keep prices down.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

BmanMcfly said:
This is true... even though the tech to have 99.9% clean burning coal, where we have supplies that could power the world with the stuff for centuries rather than forcing the boondoggles that have come from green energy. The fact is that solar power, especially in Canada, is a lost cause...

Would be better off aiming for geothermal... or nuclear, if they can fight the urge to put them on fault lines.
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If I have the numbers right, I believe we currently get about 50% from nuclear and another 30% from hydro with the balance coming formerly from coal but more recently from natural gas and the "alternate" cottage industry that is bankrupting the system. There are lots of sources other than solar/wind that provide clean, reliable energy but those who want to burnish their eco creds aren't interested.

Edit: I just rechecked the numbers and it's currently 68% nuclear and 24% hydroelectric. And yet our electricity bills have been skyrocketing the past decade with more increases promised because the government buys and pays for inefficient wind/solar first at about 10 times the price of the standard sources.
 
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Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

CanadaJohn said:
If I have the numbers right, I believe we currently get about 50% from nuclear and another 30% from hydro with the balance coming formerly from coal but more recently from natural gas and the "alternate" cottage industry that is bankrupting the system. There are lots of sources other than solar/wind that provide clean, reliable energy but those who want to burnish their eco creds aren't interested.
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It does vary by province, not certain of the totals for Canada, but the main point I was getting at is that the push is towards solar power which is horribly inefficient for Canada, in the area of 10% or less (when you consider the efficiency of the panels themselves, and the efficiency of how much sun can be collected.).

The main purpose for solar panels in Canada would be to offset the cost of power by returning power to the grid during the day when people are typically not home.

As with most Green power, it's fine for individual usage, but impractical to detrimental to use in the centralized grid system.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

CanadaJohn said:
If I have the numbers right, I believe we currently get about 50% from nuclear and another 30% from hydro with the balance coming formerly from coal but more recently from natural gas and the "alternate" cottage industry that is bankrupting the system. There are lots of sources other than solar/wind that provide clean, reliable energy but those who want to burnish their eco creds aren't interested.
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Greetings, CJ. :2wave:

Training 50,000 people to do anything is commendable, but McDonalds did that last year! Now what is going to be done about the other 10 million people who are also unemployed? The BLS estimates that there are 31 million people, if you also count the underemployed among us, who are barely scraping by. I still think that the idea of getting our grid underground in every State would provide jobs for anyone who wants to work, since there are thousands of miles of grid to be buried in this Country, and we all depend on the grid in our daily lives! I'm surprised the unions aren't jumping on this!
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

polgara said:
Greetings, CJ. :2wave:

Training 50,000 people to do anything is commendable, but McDonalds did that last year! Now what is going to be done about the other 10 million people who are also unemployed? The BLS estimates that there are 31 million people, if you also count the underemployed among us, who are barely scraping by. I still think that the idea of getting our grid underground in every State would provide jobs for anyone who wants to work, since there are thousands of miles of grid to be buried in this Country, and we all depend on the grid in our daily lives! I'm surprised the unions aren't jumping on this!
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Good evening Lady P - hope you've recovered from all the festivities and found a way to harness all that heat energy generate from the cake ceremony to be used in the cold winter ahead :2razz:

As for the grid, I couldn't agree with you more. After having the icestorm during Christmas/New Year here last winter where I was without heat and electricity for 7 days because lots of overhead wires were downed by trees throughout Toronto, I'm firmly onside with getting them underground and out of the weather's way.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

For anyone interested, the site below is excellent for identifying where our energy here in Ontario is coming from in real time:

http://media.cns-snc.ca/ontarioelectricity/ontarioelectricity.html

There might be something similar available in American jurisdictions. It's really a neat site, in my view.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

Anthony60 said:
This what you call throwing good money after bad, a government speciality. Only made possible by people who think it is a good idea.
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i support most upgrades to the electrical grid, public or private.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

Helix said:
i support most upgrades to the electrical grid, public or private.
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So do I. One reason is that this is now a matter of national security.

A few years ago I spent a couple of memorable hours in my office with Bill Forstchen, the author of One Second After, and I try not to think about the potential consequences of an EMP, natural or an attack--the end of the world as we know it.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

CanadaJohn said:
Good evening Lady P - hope you've recovered from all the festivities and found a way to harness all that heat energy generate from the cake ceremony to be used in the cold winter ahead :2razz:

As for the grid, I couldn't agree with you more. After having the icestorm during Christmas/New Year here last winter where I was without heat and electricity for 7 days because lots of overhead wires were downed by trees throughout Toronto, I'm firmly onside with getting them underground and out of the weather's way.
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All the gals were so eagerly awaiting the male fireman stripper to show up to highlight the candle lighting ceremony that when he didn't "show," disappointment overruled excitement! No one felt like eating cake at that point, so we'll have to wait till next year, I guess. Another great idea that didn't work out! :naughty: :mrgreen:
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

nota bene said:
So do I. One reason is that this is now a matter of national security.

A few years ago I spent a couple of memorable hours in my office with Bill Forstchen, the author of One Second After, and I try not to think about the potential consequences of an EMP, natural or an attack--the end of the world as we know it.
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i'm sure that was an interesting conversation.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

LagerHead said:
You're adding things to the cost that don't even play into this equation. We're only talking about money that is taken from taxpayers and given to the oil companies. That's what a subsidy is. If solar power is so incredibly kick-ass and affordable, it really doesn't need to be subsidized. The only reason oil companies receive these large subsidies is that your politicians are for sale. It certainly isn't because they need it to keep prices down.
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That's the definition of direct subsidy, but that's hardly the only way industry is subsidized in this country. Heck, if I'm a company and I can legally offload pollution costs that cost $30B or $300B per year in healthcare costs, that's a massive subsidy versus solar which (other than during manufacturing) has zero pollution and zero healthcare related costs.

Or, if you prefer, that's the oil industry privatizing profits and socializing $300 billion per year in costs. Same effect, different name. Whether we pay for it with taxes, or higher healthcare costs, we're still paying for the costs of pollution.

And certainly the military costs related to protecting oil supplies in the ME is a direct taxpayer outlay. I'm not sure how to separate the War on Terror versus our meddling around there because of huge oil supplies, but no one would claim the costs related to oil are less than at least $10s, likely $100s of billions PER YEAR.

Bottom line, solar should compete on a level playing field with alternatives and it doesn't. Neither does wind, geothermal.

Nuclear power is another topic - it wouldn't exist in the U.S. without taxpayer guarantees for the loans - the losses against nuclear accidents are uninsurable in the marketplace, so taxpayers provide those guarantees. It's priceless!!....
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

TheDemSocialist said:
Read more @: [/FONT][/COLOR]
[h=1]White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install solar panels[/h]
:applaud:applaud I can not say how much I love this program! Job training, new jobs, and green energy! :mrgreen: This is a great program, and I cannot think why anyone ccouldbe against this!
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the only problem is solar panels when concentrated create extreme amounts of heat,which is bad for wildlife,so they would need to be spaced out.another problem is cost to benefit,solar is more feasable when powering small buildins cheaply,but costs rise quickly with larger buildings,hence why most people who adopt them live in small houses and cabins.

another issue is sunlight,much of the country doesnt have enough constant sunlight to make solar panels efficient.

at the end of the day they should have focused on a combination of solar,wind,and hydro instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

beerftw said:
the only problem is solar panels when concentrated create extreme amounts of heat,which is bad for wildlife,so they would need to be spaced out.another problem is cost to benefit,solar is more feasable when powering small buildins cheaply,but costs rise quickly with larger buildings,hence why most people who adopt them live in small houses and cabins.

another issue is sunlight,much of the country doesnt have enough constant sunlight to make solar panels efficient.

at the end of the day they should have focused on a combination of solar,wind,and hydro instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.
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The other problem with solar is that it's not up to an acceptable efficiency yet. It has it's uses at this level, but it's not a replacement. I very much agree with that last, except coal, oil and gas need to be added as well. The so-called "green technologies" aren't yet ready to stand on their own.

Storage and transmission are still the major stumbling blocks, not generation.
 
Re: White House announces plan to train 50,000 people, including veterans, to install

clownboy said:
The other problem with solar is that it's not up to an acceptable efficiency yet. It has it's uses at this level, but it's not a replacement. I very much agree with that last, except coal, oil and gas need to be added as well. The so-called "green technologies" aren't yet ready to stand on their own.

Storage and transmission are still the major stumbling blocks, not generation.
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oil coal and gas are already used,the three green energies would be used to reduce the primary sources of energy.

but at this time your right,they cant run anything by themselves hardly.like i said with solar,alot of those using it are people with small cabins,those people find a 4k system with a battery bank cheaper than running power lines to the middle of nowhere.but even those people still have gas or diesel generators as a few cloudy days could kill their power.


palm springs cali got it right,they use windmills,and gas generators,when the windmills fail to generate enough power,the gas generators pick up the slack.

and yes storage is a major problem,with a small house deep cycle batteries could be used with no problems,but for lets say a city,there is no efficient way to store that much power,and i cant see a cities power plant stocking 20 million deep cycle batteries either.
 
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