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McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a [W:391]

Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

OK, I gather you have an MBA then.

The main reason for automation is what? To save costs?

I suggest you rethink that part of the equation and look into the development of automation in the auto industry.

I don't give a fiddler's **** what your personal preferences are, it is irrelevant to the conversation. The point which you appear to deliberately ignore is that there are going to be far fewer jobs all around and the US is NOT keeping pace with the demand of technological training; the reason you have a higher unemployment rate than any other industrialized country.

Minimum wage won't mean squat when there are no minimum wage jobs. That is the reality you seem to miss. and when the **** are "progressives" going to drop the 100 year old mantra about minimum wage; it was a good meme for Obama in 2012 but it is largely as irrelevant today as it was when it was first raised over 100 years ago.

:roll:

That is your concern...mine is as stated.

You don't care about my concern, then don't read it.

Don't worry, I won't read yours because I have not the foggiest idea what you are going on about...and I don't much care, either. And why you are semi-freaking out about it is beyond me.

Lighten up.


We are done here.

Good day.
 
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Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

While this is true on principle, you're wrong about the $15/hour number being some tipping point for the fast food industry.

I don't know what the tipping point is for the fast food industry.

But if they are starting to automate with a national minimum wage at $7.25/hr., logic dictates that they will greatly increase automation at $15/hr...especially considering how unskilled most fast food jobs are.

Plus, since there has never been a national $15/hr. national minimum wage in America, then it is impossible to know what effect one would have on various businesses were it implemented in the near future.

I am not saying I know that it would cause mass automation, I cannot know that.

But I do know that it would increase the desire of corporations to automate minimum wage jobs as much as possible.
 
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Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

Ignoring your continued stubbornness about calling other restaurants (which does not happen outside of the same chains and co-owned businesses), there is a ton of overstaffing on the books. But every person you hire to cook (or cashier) requires training. Training costs money. This is an added cost, making the 10% figure a minimum expense. After taxes, SS, medicare, benefits, training requirements, and overstaffing the schedule, 10% is an incredibly low estimate. 10% is just wages, and just for cashiers.

We're not talking about cooks. We're talking about ordeer takers

You mean like the very generous analysis of likely required manning for register shifts (84 man-hours, or 3.5 24-hour shift blocks) which equates to roughly 10% of gross sales, just for wages (not other expenses), that you called not a large part of their expenses?

Correct. 10% is not a large part of anything
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

We're not talking about cooks. We're talking about ordeer takers



Correct. 10% is not a large part of anything

To me it is disheartening how easily you seem to dismiss the job of someone else...To you, this isn't a huge problem, and you're probably right in the big picture, not many will notice. If anything many will probably cheer with the increased better service being able to punch in the correct order. But, the times that conversations often go in these areas where liberals rail that these are not just minimum wage jobs, but people, with families, that need the income, you argue now seemingly that they don't matter...That's just callous, and wrong.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

To me it is disheartening how easily you seem to dismiss the job of someone else

I've dismissed no job. I merely pointed out that the money McD's pays their counter people is only a small part of the operating expenses.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

If operating costs suddenly jumped, betyourass those ordering stations get fast-tracked to the market. Given a potential small decline in sales vs a LARGE jump in operating costs, money would once again drive the decisions. Right now, it's probably cheaper to maintain the status quo and wait for society to get better used to more and more automation. That, and perhaps one of the other chains will implement it first and take a brunt of the marketing costs (and R&D, and social experimentation) on their own chin.

But it's already a huge money saver. So why not the fast-track? It's only a small loss in sales. What numbers have you fabricated in your head for sales losses?
 
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Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

We're not talking about cooks. We're talking about ordeer takers

Ah, it's illiteracy then. You'll notice you quoted me here, "10% is an incredibly low estimate. 10% is just wages, and just for cashiers." Cashiers are order takers.

Correct. 10% is not a large part of anything

So you'd be in favor of reducing the tax rate of the wealthy by 10%. Or increasing the tax rate on the poor by 10%. It's such a small part of anything, after all.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I've dismissed no job. I merely pointed out that the money McD's pays their counter people is only a small part of the operating expenses.

I don't believe that to be totally true. Although there are larger expenses that labor in business, typically employees of any company are one of the bigger expenses, certainly more than 10%.

Do you have any documentation showing that a franchise owner running one or more McD's only pays out 10% of gross to their employees?
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

But it's already a huge money saver. So why not the fast-track? It's only a small loss in sales. What numbers have you fabricated in your head for sales losses?

I haven't the first clue what a potential loss in sales might be. Fast food in general has been on the receiving end of brutal attacks from a number of groups for years now - parent groups, nutrition groups, doctors, you name it, and for good reason. A very plausible explanation for why McDonald's is reluctant to roll out an automated order taking system (which is vastly cheaper than employees for the same function) is the perception of fast food becoming vending machine food (even junkier junk food). Another reason may be the perception of automating people out of jobs. There is no lack of borderline socialists ready to pounce on any successful company for being perceived as "greedy", "anti-people," and "against the little guy". If McDonald's has a strong marketing department (and we know they do), they are probably sinking both time and money into changing these perceptions as we speak. So, to guess McDonald's thinks there may be the danger of a loss in sales greater than the cost savings from canning all their cashiers is a reasonable conclusion.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

Ah, it's illiteracy then. You'll notice you quoted me here, "10% is an incredibly low estimate. 10% is just wages, and just for cashiers." Cashiers are order takers.



So you'd be in favor of reducing the tax rate of the wealthy by 10%. Or increasing the tax rate on the poor by 10%. It's such a small part of anything, after all.

I see that your pitiful attempt to derail the discussion by talking about cooks has now morphed into talk about cutting taxes.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I don't believe that to be totally true. Although there are larger expenses that labor in business, typically employees of any company are one of the bigger expenses, certainly more than 10%.

Do you have any documentation showing that a franchise owner running one or more McD's only pays out 10% of gross to their employees?

10% just for counter people. A typical franchise restaurant of the typical McDonald's size usually runs between 35-40% of gross for total labor cost, and about 10% or so being front counter people, which is roughly between 25-33% of labor costs.

sanga just refuses to understand that total labor cost in relation to gross is even a thing, and that a quarter to a third of it is a sizable chunk.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I don't believe that to be totally true. Although there are larger expenses that labor in business, typically employees of any company are one of the bigger expenses, certainly more than 10%.

We weren't talking about all labor - just the order takers

Do you have any documentation showing that a franchise owner running one or more McD's only pays out 10% of gross to their employees?

None has been posted. Just speculation
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I see that your pitiful attempt to derail the discussion by talking about cooks has now morphed into talk about cutting taxes.

I see you ignore the fact you were either blatantly and unapologetically wrong, or intentionally lying about my argument. We are talking about the order takers here. You keep bring up cooks (which belonged to another point). And if 10% is just a small part of anything, like you just said, then it really doesn't matter now does it? 10% here, 10% there. How about a 10% raise. Or a 10% pay cut.

Can't deal with the argument dealt to you? Disassemble! Distract! Lie! The problem is, it's not fooling anyone.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

More to sangha's claim;

"The story drew on data presented by Arnobio Morelix, an undergraduate student from The University Of Kansas who identified himself as a researcher for the school. In an interview, Morelix told the HuffPost that only 17.1 percent of McDonald's revenue goes toward salaries and benefits, meaning that for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its employees.

However, as the Columbia Journalism Review subsequently noted, Morelix's analysis only takes into account the payroll and employee benefits of McDonald's company-operated stores while excluding franchise businesses. Prior to publication, HuffPost asked Morelix if his analysis included franchises and he said it did. He later conceded it did not. McDonald's franchises make up more than 80 percent of McDonald's restaurants worldwide. This means that a majority of the payroll and employee benefits of McDonald's workers are not included in Morelix's findings.

A typical fast-food restaurant spends 30 to 35 percent of its income on labor, according to a recent release from the Employment Policies Institute, a research organization whose work is often cited by those who argue against increasing the minimum wage. The institute estimates that small-business owners who run McDonald's franchises spend about a third of their income on wages, which would mean the price of a Big Mac would go up by $1.28 to $5.27."

Errors in McDonald's Wage Analysis

Now, the fact that HuffPo ran with bogus numbers in their first story because they so wanted to further the narrative of the "greedy capitalist American businessman" is beside the point in this thread at least, but in the printed correction here they clearly cite company McD's running employment costs at 17% and Franchise owners, (80% of all McD's) running at 30% to 35% of gross sales. So, the number that sangha is standing by of these costs only being 10% is just plain false.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I see you ignore the fact you were either blatantly and unapologetically wrong, or intentionally lying about my argument. We are talking about the order takers here. You keep bring up cooks (which belonged to another point). And if 10% is just a small part of anything, like you just said, then it really doesn't matter now does it? 10% here, 10% there. How about a 10% raise. Or a 10% pay cut.

Can't deal with the argument dealt to you? Disassemble! Distract! Lie! The problem is, it's not fooling anyone.

His problem with that correlation is that McD's employees are typically cross trained in all aspects of the behind the counter operation, so it would be impossible to separate say counter from line assembly, from drive up window, etc...

It is only a way to to dismiss facts that go against his narrative.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

We weren't talking about all labor - just the order takers

I addressed that to Gonzo, you're looking at it disingenuously...

None has been posted. Just speculation

Thank you for admitting that you are talking out of your arse.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

More to sangha's claim;

"The story drew on data presented by Arnobio Morelix, an undergraduate student from The University Of Kansas who identified himself as a researcher for the school. In an interview, Morelix told the HuffPost that only 17.1 percent of McDonald's revenue goes toward salaries and benefits, meaning that for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its employees.

However, as the Columbia Journalism Review subsequently noted, Morelix's analysis only takes into account the payroll and employee benefits of McDonald's company-operated stores while excluding franchise businesses. Prior to publication, HuffPost asked Morelix if his analysis included franchises and he said it did. He later conceded it did not. McDonald's franchises make up more than 80 percent of McDonald's restaurants worldwide. This means that a majority of the payroll and employee benefits of McDonald's workers are not included in Morelix's findings.

A typical fast-food restaurant spends 30 to 35 percent of its income on labor, according to a recent release from the Employment Policies Institute, a research organization whose work is often cited by those who argue against increasing the minimum wage. The institute estimates that small-business owners who run McDonald's franchises spend about a third of their income on wages, which would mean the price of a Big Mac would go up by $1.28 to $5.27."

Errors in McDonald's Wage Analysis

Now, the fact that HuffPo ran with bogus numbers in their first story because they so wanted to further the narrative of the "greedy capitalist American businessman" is beside the point in this thread at least, but in the printed correction here they clearly cite company McD's running employment costs at 17% and Franchise owners, (80% of all McD's) running at 30% to 35% of gross sales. So, the number that sangha is standing by of these costs only being 10% is just plain false.

His problem with that correlation is that McD's employees are typically cross trained in all aspects of the behind the counter operation, so it would be impossible to separate say counter from line assembly, from drive up window, etc...

It is only a way to to dismiss facts that go against his narrative.

Just to be clear here, the 10% figure for counter people is mine, which is based on a quarter to a third of labor wage cost (@ $8/hr). It's a figure from my own analysis that represents a reasonable guess at what a typical McDonald's store, staffed in a typical fashion, probably spends to have order takers actively pushing buttons on a cash register (as well as performing all of the other front-of-the-house functions).

sanga just seems to think it's no big deal, when it is very much a significant chunk of change.

I addressed that to Gonzo, you're looking at it disingenuously...



Thank you for admitting that you are talking out of your arse.

He is looking at it disingenuously though. I made a different argument about the need and cost to over-staff which he attempted to disassemble by talking about waitresses. When I made the distinction between waitresses and cooks (and cashiers, but he ignored this part completely), he kept bringing up cooks like I had somehow tried to derail the thread. He just can't deal with arguments as they are presented. It's really quite annoying.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

More to sangha's claim;

"The story drew on data presented by Arnobio Morelix, an undergraduate student from The University Of Kansas who identified himself as a researcher for the school. In an interview, Morelix told the HuffPost that only 17.1 percent of McDonald's revenue goes toward salaries and benefits, meaning that for every dollar McDonald's earns, a little more than 17 cents goes toward the income and benefits of its employees.

However, as the Columbia Journalism Review subsequently noted, Morelix's analysis only takes into account the payroll and employee benefits of McDonald's company-operated stores while excluding franchise businesses. Prior to publication, HuffPost asked Morelix if his analysis included franchises and he said it did. He later conceded it did not. McDonald's franchises make up more than 80 percent of McDonald's restaurants worldwide. This means that a majority of the payroll and employee benefits of McDonald's workers are not included in Morelix's findings.

A typical fast-food restaurant spends 30 to 35 percent of its income on labor, according to a recent release from the Employment Policies Institute, a research organization whose work is often cited by those who argue against increasing the minimum wage. The institute estimates that small-business owners who run McDonald's franchises spend about a third of their income on wages, which would mean the price of a Big Mac would go up by $1.28 to $5.27."

Errors in McDonald's Wage Analysis

Now, the fact that HuffPo ran with bogus numbers in their first story because they so wanted to further the narrative of the "greedy capitalist American businessman" is beside the point in this thread at least, but in the printed correction here they clearly cite company McD's running employment costs at 17% and Franchise owners, (80% of all McD's) running at 30% to 35% of gross sales. So, the number that sangha is standing by of these costs only being 10% is just plain false.

That # (ie 1/3) is for ALL employees. We're talking only about the order takers
His problem with that correlation is that McD's employees are typically cross trained in all aspects of the behind the counter operation, so it would be impossible to separate say counter from line assembly, from drive up window, etc...

It is only a way to to dismiss facts that go against his narrative.

I addressed that to Gonzo, you're looking at it disingenuously...

No, the automation only affects the order takers. It won't replace the kitchen staff.


Thank you for admitting that you are talking out of your arse.

I made no claims about how much the labor costs relative to total expenses except to say it's not a large portion.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

That # (ie 1/3) is for ALL employees. We're talking only about the order takers




No, the automation only affects the order takers. It won't replace the kitchen staff.




I made no claims about how much the labor costs relative to total expenses except to say it's not a large portion.

You don't think that 30 to 35% is a large portion? I do...To your silly argument about separating cooks from counter people...Show me that jobs within a McD is singular....And more so to the point, the article also said that raising the minimum pay at McD to $15 would indeed increase the cost of a Big Mac by quite a bit. And that was HuffPo, certainly NO conservative outlet.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

You don't think that 30 to 35% is a large portion? I do...To your silly argument about separating cooks from counter people...Show me that jobs within a McD is singular....And more so to the point, the article also said that raising the minimum pay at McD to $15 would indeed increase the cost of a Big Mac by quite a bit. And that was HuffPo, certainly NO conservative outlet.

Again, we're not talking about their total labor costs. We're talking only about the cost of the order takers. The automation of order taking will not eliminate jobs in the kitchen.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

Again, we're not talking about their total labor costs. We're talking only about the cost of the order takers. The automation of order taking will not eliminate jobs in the kitchen.

Agreed but since the jobs in those places are like I said modular, and most of the employees are cross trained in all aspects the result of loosing say 1/3rd of the jobs to automation severely impacts those employees who held those jobs. You are basically saying that "eh, doesn't matter, their job is a small part"... I bet they don't look at it that way...
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

You are basically saying that "eh, doesn't matter, their job is a small part"... I bet they don't look at it that way...

i never said that. I've said nothing about their job security
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

i never said that. I've said nothing about their job security

That's not true. You said that a 10% cost for labor wage out of gross is not a large amount, even though it represents a quarter to a third of total labor. If order takers are replaced, a significant portion of labor can (and will be) cut. You claim this isn't significant.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

That's not true. You said that a 10% cost for labor wage out of gross is not a large amount,

No, I didn't

even though it represents a quarter to a third of total labor. If order takers are replaced, a significant portion of labor can (and will be) cut. You claim this isn't significant.

No, I didn't
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

gonzo rodeo said:
That's not true. You said that a 10% cost for labor wage out of gross is not a large amount,
No, I didn't
gonzo rodeo said:
even though it represents a quarter to a third of total labor. If order takers are replaced, a significant portion of labor can (and will be) cut. You claim this isn't significant.
No, I didn't

There you go, lying again.

gonzo rodeo said:
10% is not insignificant.
It's a small fraction.

gonzo rodeo said:
Did you not see the specific breakdown for just cashiers, the position we are talking about eliminating? Or are you intentionally ignoring it because it damages your argument too badly?
My argument is that it isn't a large share of their expenses, and you have shown that I'm correct

gonzo rodeo said:
You've made the assertion that 10% of gross is insignificant, over and over again. It's not. It's quite significant.
It is not a large part of their expenses.

gonzo rodeo said:
You mean like the very generous analysis of likely required manning for register shifts (84 man-hours, or 3.5 24-hour shift blocks) which equates to roughly 10% of gross sales, just for wages (not other expenses), that you called not a large part of their expenses?
Correct. 10% is not a large part of anything

Then again, it may just be illiteracy. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
 
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