• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a [W:391]

Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

No, you have over simplified the economics. The decision to install kiosks is not a stand alone decision. The up front cost of the kiosks and the cost of maintenance have to be compared to the similar cost of keeping human staff.

If, for instance, 1 employee at $8/hour can process 30 orders per hour and 1 Kiosk costs effectively $9/hour and processes the same number of orders then the decision to keep the person is easy. But is the government now imposes a $10/hour minimum wage now the kiosk is the better choice. The choice to use kiosks has EVERYTHING to do with the cost of labor.

The drive through isn't really a special case. Replace speakers and menu boards with a kiosk and a smartphone app. Cooks (until they are automated) can simply put the foot on a conveyor for delivery to the drive through window or the counter.

You won't likely eliminate ALL employees at a fast food restaurant but if you cut down the staffing need from 8 to 2 then the 2 minght get $15 and hour but that is small consolation to the other 6.
Cost isn't the only consideration. Take for example the coke machine kiosks that have started to get added to various places. I go to a movie and now they give me a cup to go fill up my drink. The kiosk has about a million different soda's which is freaking amazing. It has saved the movie theater a tons of money because they have eliminated positions because filling soda's probably accounted for the majority of their time filling an order.

Win/win right? Wrong! Now I have to sit behind someone that doesn't know their elbow from their ass trying to work the machine and 4 other people that typically breathe through their mouth. It may of saved AMC theaters money but it's ruined my experience and makes me more likely to sneak in a diet Mr. Pibb than go through that aggravating experience.

The elimination of fast food staff is heavily reliant on people doing what they should when going through the process. You can control your staff, you have no idea what will happen when you open it to the wider public. What happens if I only go to fast food once every couple of months and drive up to see a kiosk? I may be like "**** this" and go to Wendy's.

We;ve rarely gotten to see a reprieve from increased social spending in this country in that time, but as I have shown with the Economist graph, when welfare was cut in 1997 the income of the 10th, 20th and 50th percentiles increased by as much as 20%.
The wage increases are usually credited to the huge economic boom of the 90's. Did Welfare to Work create the economic boom?
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

What? Are 5 Guys fries supposed to be limp and soggy with oil? I've had them twice and they were like that both times. Ugh.

I second that experience. 5 Guys is at the very bottom for me when it comes to burgers and fries due to the copious amounts of oil they slather on everything (it wouldn't surprise me if they put oil in the drinks). I'd rather eat one of those hockey pucks they call McDonalds than eat at 5 Guys. Still, automated registers or not, I think that McDonalds' only chance of turning the slump around is to offer a better quality product as there are too many other options at comparable prices (Wendy's, BK, Culvers, Kopps....I guess we're spoiled in WI :p).
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I second that experience. 5 Guys is at the very bottom for me when it comes to burgers and fries due to the copious amounts of oil they slather on everything (it wouldn't surprise me if they put oil in the drinks). I'd rather eat one of those hockey pucks they call McDonalds than eat at 5 Guys. Still, automated registers or not, I think that McDonalds' only chance of turning the slump around is to offer a better quality product as there are too many other options at comparable prices (Wendy's, BK, Culvers, Kopps....I guess we're spoiled in WI :p).

Well I thought the burgers were fine, but nothing special (certainly better than McDs) but the fries.....who likes them that way?

(And McDs really does have excellent fries)
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

Well I thought the burgers were fine, but nothing special (certainly better than McDs) but the fries.....who likes them that way?

(And McDs really does have excellent fries)

I agree...McD's has the best fries and I love their fountain drinks. On the burger side...they suck...you open those things up and it's probably the most spartan "burger" you'll ever see. Like five flecks of onion, a squirt of ketchup and mustard and two pickles.

I try to eat healthy and when I'm craving a burger I want good burger
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I agree...McD's has the best fries and I love their fountain drinks. On the burger side...they suck...you open those things up and it's probably the most spartan "burger" you'll ever see. Like five flecks of onion, a squirt of ketchup and mustard and two pickles.

I try to eat healthy and when I'm craving a burger I want good burger

The fries are indeed delicious. McD's used to have a line of 'premium' burgers called angus burgers that were actually decent. Apparently they have been discontinued though.....
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

Right, the meaning of 'is' is...

Incorrect. Promote has a real definition and purpose in the sentence. You removed it to change what I said.

Right, but the point of anti-trust laws is to maintain competitive markets. We've decided to quit enforcing them, and a growing share of our economy is dominated by just a handful or less of firms. The automakers were just the first to buy enough influence to enable them to form into behemoths that made it infeasible for competitors to emerge. We don't have to have "free trade" to have competition in the marketplace. That's a choice we made as a country to allow the Big Three to form.

It is a choice between having the big three by merger and having the big three by companies going out of business. Which do you choose? Foreign auto makers were killing American auto business in quality and cost for over a decade, would you block those sales to prop up the under achievers just because they are American? All that does is reward under achieving.


You made an unsupported assertion that free trade is good for the poor. I don't believe that is true.

No, I said no such thing. I said it was a trade off. As wages stagnated the PPP increased. The poor may have as many inflation adjusted dollars as they used to but they can afford more goods with that dollar.

I haven't studied it but it's likely because wages didn't keep pace with inflation for various good reasons.

False!

Of course they have a causal relationship - real wages cannot grow unless productivity grows. It's how we get real increases in the standard of living.

And your labor supply thing doesn't work either. Here is a link to a graph of the labor force. It's grown fairly steadily since 1948 - the first year of the series online. And as growth in the labor force leveled off and declined, we should see average wage increases, but we don't - they've remained flat.

Here's another graph that proves the point even better: Source is here: EconoSpeak: Cheap Hustle #2: How to Lie with Statistics

View attachment 67173147

In case it disappears, what it shows is an amazing link between wages and compensation - but this graph is of TOTAL compensation. The difference between that graph and the other is the other is median wages. The point is productivity has increased income as it must, but the income has been going to a smaller and smaller share of the workforce - the upper sliver. And recently it has gone to profits, and total wages have declined.

It is funny to see a blog post called "How to lie with statistics" go on to lie with statistics. As his reference article states, regarding productivity, the productivity is affected by the tools at the disposal of the worker among other things. It goes back to my old joke I stated earlier about the shovels and spoons. Growing automation is just as responsible for the split as the change in the workforce, and the nature of the work being done. Does an employee deserve a raise because his company decided to invest in a bigger backhoe?


(More later)
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

Not missing out on any part of your argument. I'm rejecting it because it's unsound.

There is no stagflation, except maybe some in the economy as a whole

Who said anything about stagflation?
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

No, you have over simplified the economics. The decision to install kiosks is not a stand alone decision. The up front cost of the kiosks and the cost of maintenance have to be compared to the similar cost of keeping human staff.

If, for instance, 1 employee at $8/hour can process 30 orders per hour and 1 Kiosk costs effectively $9/hour and processes the same number of orders then the decision to keep the person is easy. But is the government now imposes a $10/hour minimum wage now the kiosk is the better choice. The choice to use kiosks has EVERYTHING to do with the cost of labor.

All we have is your assertion. The article I quoted said the machines cost $4,000. So they can install 4 or 5 of them for the cost of one minimum wage worker over 2,000 hours. But they haven't....

The drive through isn't really a special case. Replace speakers and menu boards with a kiosk and a smartphone app. Cooks (until they are automated) can simply put the foot on a conveyor for delivery to the drive through window or the counter.

You're debating the author of the article that has given the subject more thought and talked to more people than you have.

We;ve rarely gotten to see a reprieve from increased social spending in this country in that time, but as I have shown with the Economist graph, when welfare was cut in 1997 the income of the 10th, 20th and 50th percentiles increased by as much as 20%.

Now you'll tell me that Presidential elections are affected by the winner of the Super Bowl (NFC or AFC) because you've found a correlation there. Correlation =/= cause. You have to prove causes empirically and control for other factors, such as the tech boom, etc.

I didn't lump them together in the way you seem to think. I was not including SS and Medicare in my evaluation of welfare spending except insofar as I was discussing the increase in entitlements in general, but the trend of entitlement spending is largely the same even absent Medicare (and SS has not increased dramatically until recently due to increased numbers of recipients), and the results are the same: no change, no return on investment.

Well, which ones didn't work? NONE of them? Different programs will be more or less effective. And you ignored the entire point that the underlying poverty rate is also key - what would the rate have been without the spending? You have no idea.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

It is a choice between having the big three by merger and having the big three by companies going out of business. Which do you choose? Foreign auto makers were killing American auto business in quality and cost for over a decade, would you block those sales to prop up the under achievers just because they are American? All that does is reward under achieving.

You missed the point - a better solution is to enforce anti-trust rules.

No, I said no such thing. I said it was a trade off. As wages stagnated the PPP increased. The poor may have as many inflation adjusted dollars as they used to but they can afford more goods with that dollar.

Well, I'm not sure how that works - adjusting for inflation puts the wages on that scale - cheaper imported goods kept inflation lower than it would have been. Doesn't mean purchasing power for the median worker increased.


Well, if you say so, I guess it must be true!

It is funny to see a blog post called "How to lie with statistics" go on to lie with statistics. As his reference article states, regarding productivity, the productivity is affected by the tools at the disposal of the worker among other things. It goes back to my old joke I stated earlier about the shovels and spoons. Growing automation is just as responsible for the split as the change in the workforce, and the nature of the work being done. Does an employee deserve a raise because his company decided to invest in a bigger backhoe?

No it's not. We've been replacing people with machines for the history of the U.S. - that's a big reason why productivity has increased and along with it living standards. And as we got more productive, WAGES increased along with productivity, but starting around 1970, those wage increases only went to the top sliver. You're ignoring the point of the graph and my discussion. Wages kept rising along with productivity - they ARE linked. The divergence was where the wage increases went - to the top slivers, NOT to the median worker.

And sure, if we want living standards to go up, then wages will have to increase as productivity increases. If not, we'll have more stagnation at the bottom, more income flowing to the top and more inequality, eventually reaching a tipping point where you'll see real pushback on the part of workers. There is historical precedence for that - the labor movement of the late 19th and early 20th century.
 
Last edited:
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

'If you’ve ever felt guilty ordering at McDonald’s, the fast-food mega-chain has just the fix: You can now order your own quarter-pound bacon cheeseburger from a welcoming, non-judging machine.

Battling the worst sales slump in a decade and competition from build-your-own upstarts like Chipotle and Smashburger, McDonald’s is expanding a test concept built around ordering via tablet. Just tap on a screen and watch as your burger’s toppings (and calories) pile on, then wait for an employee to bring it over. No human interaction necessary.

McDonald’s move towards dehumanization, launched as a pilot last winter and expanded across San Diego last week, is part of a larger trend of chain eateries turning tablets into your full-time restaurant buddy: equal parts menu, server and paycheck. Applebee’s, Panera Bread and even airport bars have installed tablets to allow diners to order food or booze without a wait.'


McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a machine - The Washington Post


This is what happens when - among other reasons - you start demanding higher pay then your position is worth (like fast food workers demanding $15/hr.).

If these fast food workers force Congress to adopt a $15/hr. minimum wage? I guarantee you that the above will be the result...automation and mass layoffs.

It ain't rocket science people - you are VERY replaceable.

You seem to be making two completely separate points. High wages making the vending machines happen... but the story is about slumping sales... which has nothing to do with higher wages. Also, I don't believe they got these higher wages. I think they just requested it.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

From a business standpoint this is a ridiculous move.

The reason McDonalds's sales are slumping is because they have an inferior product as compared to their competition. 5 Guys, In 'n' Out, and others offer a better burger at more or less the same price.

If McD's wants to get back their market share they need to go back to their roots and start offering a marginal burger really, really fast. For decades the whole reason people went to McD's is because by the time you finished ordering your meal was on the tray in front of you. Yeah, the burger had been sitting under a heat lamp for 10 minutes and it really wasn't that great but it was also 29 cents and in your hand damned near before you could blink. They don't need specialty burgers and coffee lounges. They just need clean restaurants and lickity split service with the same old mediocre burgers they've always had.

God I hope In & Out gets to Santa Fe sometime soon.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I do like the idea of the tablet due to the fact people can misunderstand.I know there has been more than one occasion I ordered a unsweetened iced tea and got a sweet iced tea.I can see why restaurants would want these tablets. Waiters can't be everywhere at once and customers might order additional food and drinls if they do not have to wait for their waiter who is currently busy at another table. These companies make billions of dollars even after expenses.So they can afford to pay their employees a little more.

What gets me is the whole drive through speaker thing. Why? They installed 2nd windows in drive throughs. Why not just order and pay at the first and collect your goods at the 2nd. In my experience, you probably quadruple the miscommunication errors because you are not looking at the person you are talking to and are instead trying to defeat traffic noise and static to get your order communicated right. Wouldn't happen so much if you just looked them in the face and said what you wanted.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

You seem to be making two completely separate points. High wages making the vending machines happen... but the story is about slumping sales... which has nothing to do with higher wages. Also, I don't believe they got these higher wages. I think they just requested it.

Pretty incredible, isn't it?

The minimum wage hasn't been raised, and wingnuts think McD's automating counter service is the result of raising the minimum wage

If aliens from outer space ever visit us, they're going to have a hard time believing we're the smartest species on the planet.

What gets me is the whole drive through speaker thing. Why? They installed 2nd windows in drive throughs. Why not just order and pay at the first and collect your goods at the 2nd. In my experience, you probably quadruple the miscommunication errors because you are not looking at the person you are talking to and are instead trying to defeat traffic noise and static to get your order communicated right. Wouldn't happen so much if you just looked them in the face and said what you wanted.

By the time you get to the window, they've taken and started to work on several more orders.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

What gets me is the whole drive through speaker thing. Why? They installed 2nd windows in drive throughs. Why not just order and pay at the first and collect your goods at the 2nd. In my experience, you probably quadruple the miscommunication errors because you are not looking at the person you are talking to and are instead trying to defeat traffic noise and static to get your order communicated right. Wouldn't happen so much if you just looked them in the face and said what you wanted.

They actually put in the second window to get people's money faster so they didn't get people driving away frustrated without paying. If you look at the way most drive-thrus are constructed, and not just at McDonalds, it's to keep you locked in place until you get to the window to pay.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

They actually put in the second window to get people's money faster so they didn't get people driving away frustrated without paying. If you look at the way most drive-thrus are constructed, and not just at McDonalds, it's to keep you locked in place until you get to the window to pay.

Still... make the order there instead.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

Still... make the order there instead.

That will just slow the process down, they count on the time you have to sit waiting to get to the window to make the food. If you only had room for 2-3 cars in line, the first one would have to sit a long time waiting for their food and you'd be back to cars driving off without paying. Of course, they could put a remote station out at the order board, there was actually a Wendy's that did that a long time ago locally, and orders could be taken in person and paid on the spot, I don't know if it just didn't work out or what, but they remodeled the restaurant and took it out again not long after.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

That will just slow the process down, they count on the time you have to sit waiting to get to the window to make the food. If you only had room for 2-3 cars in line, the first one would have to sit a long time waiting for their food and you'd be back to cars driving off without paying. Of course, they could put a remote station out at the order board, there was actually a Wendy's that did that a long time ago locally, and orders could be taken in person and paid on the spot, I don't know if it just didn't work out or what, but they remodeled the restaurant and took it out again not long after.

They don't make the food any faster though. Still takes the same amount of time. And more importantly, they will get your order right more often and you don't have to go into the store to fix their screwups. I know I know... that's not considered in the corporate business model.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

They don't make the food any faster though. Still takes the same amount of time. And more importantly, they will get your order right more often and you don't have to go into the store to fix their screwups. I know I know... that's not considered in the corporate business model.

From personal experience, I can say that standing at the counter, talking to one of the cashiers directly does not make them give you the correct order any more often.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

From personal experience, I can say that standing at the counter, talking to one of the cashiers directly does not make them give you the correct order any more often.

I rarely get an order messed up if I do it faced to face.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I rarely get an order messed up if I do it faced to face.

You're a luckier man than I, Gunga Din.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

You're a luckier man than I, Gunga Din.

CUstomer service these days has devolved into "How do I get this person out of my face?" If you are standing in their face they tend to get it right because that is what will get you out of their face. If you are doing the drive by... they know you will be gone and will have to weigh turning around to get it right when you do find out it was wrong. So they care less about drive throughs IMO because you are already out of their face.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

Well I thought the burgers were fine, but nothing special (certainly better than McDs) but the fries.....who likes them that way?

(And McDs really does have excellent fries)

I don't know what's happening at your Five Guys, but where I am the fries are excellent. They make them to order, so they come out extremely hot and fresh. We always split a small order, which is huge, and despite knowing better eat them all. It's by far the best fast place for burgers in my area.

It's true IME you can't carry them home and have the fries be any good - tried that one time and never again.
 
Last edited:
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

CUstomer service these days has devolved into "How do I get this person out of my face?" If you are standing in their face they tend to get it right because that is what will get you out of their face. If you are doing the drive by... they know you will be gone and will have to weigh turning around to get it right when you do find out it was wrong. So they care less about drive throughs IMO because you are already out of their face.

And I wish that was true but, at least locally, it isn't. It takes forever to get even the simplest order made, I thought this was supposed to be fast food, but apparently, standing around for 5-10 minutes, even when you're the only one in the lobby, is "fast". And when they give you the order, you have to disassemble it on the counter to make sure they put everything in the bag because most of the time, they don't. This isn't just one McDonalds, it's all of them that I've been to in the past 15 years locally. Drive thru might be even worse, I don't know, I don't go through drive thru because I figured inside would be better. It doesn't meet my standards, which is why I tend to avoid McDonalds unless I have no choice.
 
Re: McDonald’s fresh hope to turn around slumping sales: Ordering burgers from a mach

I don't know what's happening at your Five Guys, but where I am the fries are excellent. They make them to order, so they come out extremely hot and fresh. We always split a small order, which is huge, and despite knowing better eat them all. It's by far the best fast place for burgers in my area.

It's true IME you can't carry them home and have the fries be any good - tried that one time and never again.

Are they limp and soggy with peanut oil or are they crispy....that's all I want to know.

I've been to 2 Five Guys and ate them there... fries have been limp both times.

Ladies NEVER like that.
 
Back
Top Bottom