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Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

What about the "Fighting Irish"?
Sounds like a not so subtle slander that portrays the Irish as belligerent and probably drunkards.

Sure, but Irish is not a race.
 
It depicts a NA warrior. Not a NA farmer, mayor, medicine man, philosopher or peace activist.

When you claim the entire race is warriors, you are claiming they are warmongers.

What makes you think he's a warrior? There is nothing in the logo outside regular everyday Native American dress of the 19th century.
 
What makes you think he's a warrior? There is nothing in the logo outside regular everyday Native American dress of the 19th century.

It's a football team. Anyway, check out the history.
 
But were they 'real' Indians being polled or did they just say they were?


"...The flaw in random and anonymous polls of Native Americans' opinion is that they must rely upon self-identification to select the target group. In an editorial in the Bloomington Herald Times, Steve Russell (an enrolled Cherokee citizen and associate professor of criminal justice at Indiana University), states that both the Sports Illustrated and Annenberg's samples of "self-identified Native Americans... includes plenty of people who have nothing to do with Indians".[76]

The problem of individuals claiming to be Native American when they are not is well known in academic research, and is a particular problem when non-natives claim Indian identity specifically to gain authority in the debate over sports mascots. In the Annenberg Poll, respondents were asked their race however, before being questioned about the teams' name.[75][77]....

At the Center for Indigenous Peoples Studies at California State University, San Bernardino a survey has conducted of 400 individuals whose identity as Native American was verified, finding that 67% agreed with the statement that "Redskins" is offensive and racist. The response from non-natives was almost the opposite, with 68% responding that the name is not offensive.
Redskin (slang) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Soo...67% of 'authentic' Indians are offended by the use of redskins.

I see. Don't like the results so you make claims that the people used in the poll I used are not real Indians.
 
Actually, there's nothing in the logo to preclude any of those.

It's a warrior. Stop playing stupid.

Washington Redskins Logos - National Football League (NFL) - Chris Creamer's Sports Logos Page - SportsLogos.Net

And if the spear logo doesn't convince you of the intended idea:

The only way an Indian can actually get one of these [eagle] feathers is by doing a brave deed, like fighting off a bear or going up against the enemy. They were never allowed to wear the feather until they went in front of their tribal court and retold the story of their victory. It was at this time that they were allowed to put it in their headpiece. Only chieftains, warriors, and braves have ever been awarded this special gift.
http://www.indians.org/articles/feathers.html




I think it's ridiculous that you need someone to prove the NA depicted is a warrior.
 
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I see. Don't like the results so you make claims that the people used in the poll I used are not real Indians.

It's not my fault the poll is flawed.
 
It's a warrior. Stop playing stupid.

Washington Redskins Logos - National Football League (NFL) - Chris Creamer's Sports Logos Page - SportsLogos.Net

And if the spear logo doesn't convince you of the intended idea:


Discover the symbolism behind Native American feathers




I think it's ridiculous that you need someone to prove the NA depicted is a warrior.

I have never excluded a warrior from the depiction. I have only pointed out there is nothing explicitly warlike in the logo. That is true and nothing you have posted refutes it. Furthermore, some of the greatest warriors were also among the greatest philosophers and statesmen. Red Cloud comes to mind.
 
I rooted for them until they ran out on the field with their hands up.

Now, I dont care if the disband the team.


I was disappointed when I saw that display
 
I have never excluded a warrior from the depiction. I have only pointed out there is nothing explicitly warlike in the logo. That is true and nothing you have posted refutes it. Furthermore, some of the greatest warriors were also among the greatest philosophers and statesmen. Red Cloud comes to mind.

It's not just an average NA, it's a warrior leader. Denying that is just stupid. If one accepts that it's a warrior then one must decide if stereotyping NAs as warriors is a good, neutral or bad thing.
 
It's not just an average NA, it's a warrior leader. Denying that is just stupid. If one accepts that it's a warrior then one must decide if stereotyping NAs as warriors is a good, neutral or bad thing.

He might or might not be a warrior. He actually looks a little long in the tooth to still be fighting. He looks like a tribal elder.
 
He might or might not be a warrior. He actually looks a little long in the tooth to still be fighting. He looks like a tribal elder.

Did you forget we're talking about a football team. Enough of that stupidity. Let's make this simple:

There is NO acceptable depiction of a race as a logo. Why? Because stereotyping a race is wrong, it marginalizes those left out.
 
My poll is not flawed.

Your poll was part of a 2004 national election survey and it didn't verify the race of those who claimed to be Indians. If it was a stand alone poll that polled only native Americans then you might have something....but you don't. So yes, your poll was deeply flawed.

"...The survey most frequently cited by opponents of change was performed in 2004 as part of the National Annenberg Election Survey. Among other questions regarding election year issues, respondents from the 48 continental U.S. states were asked: "The professional football team in Washington calls itself the Washington Redskins. As a Native American, do you find that name offensive or doesn't it bother you?"

The problem of individuals claiming to be Native American when they are not is well known in academic research, limiting the value of public opinion polls of the mascot issue.[230]...."
Washington Redskins name controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Your poll is flawed on an even deeper level. It suggests that if popular opinion supports prejudice and racism (or racist mascots) then the matter is settled when in fact it isn't.


"...It suggests that popular opinion can settle troubling questions about prejudice, power, and privilege. Hence, if the majority support mascots (or racial segregation or sexual harassment), then such symbols and practices are acceptable. And worse, [it] asserts that if members of marginalized and oppressed groups consent to their marginalization and oppression, then everything is OK. If most Blacks supported racial segregation, would it be a justifiable system? If most women saw nothing wrong with sexual harassment, would we not still want to suggest such actions were reprehensible and problematic? Unfortunately, in the end, "The Indian Wars" encourages Americans to avoid thinking critically about the history and significance of race....."
American Indian Sports Team Mascots
 
Did you forget we're talking about a football team. Enough of that stupidity. Let's make this simple:

There is NO acceptable depiction of a race as a logo. Why? Because stereotyping a race is wrong, it marginalizes those left out.

You are entitled to your view. I do not share it. You are not entitled to sling words like "stupidity" around.
 
You are not entitled to sling words like "stupidity" around.

I certainly am. Let me know when you understand racial stereotypes are bad for society. I know, they're really good for racist organizations and those guys will lose out, but them's the breaks.
 
I certainly am. Let me know when you understand racial stereotypes are bad for society. I know, they're really good for racist organizations and those guys will lose out, but them's the breaks.

I've said what I have to say and I have tried to be courteous about it. We disagree. I don't believe there's a racial stereotype involved here. Nor have you presented any evidence there is.
 
I don't believe there's a racial stereotype involved here.

It's a football team, with a warrior logo (which used to be a spear) and a mascot that runs around in war paint with a tomahawk, they have a 'fight song', but there's nothing at all being said about Native Americans.

It's just the name in a void and there are no implications about anyone or anything.

:roll:
 
No one makes a claim that he represents broad Indian opinion.
No one except perhaps the NFL commissioner using the fake Indian, Chief Dodson as evidence that most Indians didn't mind the name in a letter to congress.


"...The NFL's commissioner, trying to score points with Congress, leaned on the Redskins' too-good-to-be-true spokes model, too. On June 5, Roger Goodell wrote to the co-chairs of the Congressional Native American Caucus, whose members had been urging the team to change its name. On NFL letterhead, the league boss alleged that "Redskins" was "a unifying force that stands for strength, courage, pride and respect."

"Importantly, this positive meaning is shared by the overwhelming majority of football fans and Americans generally, including Native Americans," Goodell wrote. And as Exhibit A, Goodell cited the support of "Chief Steven (sic) Dodson," whom Goodell identified as "an American Inuit chief and resident of Prince Georges (sic) County, Maryland."...."

Read Roger Goodell's Letter To Congress Defending The Redskins Name
 
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