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Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

Montecresto said:
Ah yes. Ever face your fear in the eye? The Ukraine has again made accusations against Russia, and Russia is denying them. Why is it automatic with you and others that the Ukraine is telling the truth and Russia is lying?
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Because they have no concept of who the Ukrainians really are. (and that statement is in no way giving props to the Russians, either)
 
Montecresto said:
WASHINGTON'S ROLE in the fascist putsch against the elected government in Ukraine will surprise only those who watch the news and ignore the historical record. Since 1945, dozens of governments, many of them democracies, have met a similar fate, usually with bloodshed.

U.S. dominance and Australia?s secret coup


The disposal of the Ukrainian government of President Viktor Yanukovych last week by neocon operatives from within the US state department and European government structures was a violation of international law with total impunity by the US - the conspiracy breached Articles 2(4) and 2(7) of the UN Charter that require all UN member states to respect the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of other states, and to desist from intervening in domestic affairs of any member states respectively. The US and European Union (EU) countries need to be held answerable for the despicable, criminal breach. - See more at: Defeat neocon conspiracy in Ukraine! | Daily News Online : Sri Lanka's National News
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The first link has to do with Australia more than Ukraine. The second, well...

some Sri Lankan Nazi said:
Nuland is of Russian Jewish origin, and her real surname is supposed to be "Nudelman". She has reinforced this genetic disposition towards spreading their own version of democracy and "human rights" to the rest of the world with even stronger neocon connections

[...]

On December 16, 2013 Jerusalem Post reported that young Jews were 'really active' in Kiev 'organising the barricades' under the NGO banners Jewish Distribution Committee, Hillel and Limmud.
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Teh joos is loose!!11!!!
 
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MadLib said:
The first link has to do with Australia more than Ukraine. The second, well...



Teh joos is loose!!11!!!
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Lol, wait a minute, because the Sri Lankan News pointed out her Jewishness, they're wrong about the Ukraine crisis. Ok, such desperation. And the first link, the Australian Gazette pointed out US intrigue in Ukraine but went on to talk about Australian issues, therefore they too are discredited. Whatever dude, you know, Russia's cameras and press were in maiden square, they've documented the fact that Western intrigue was behind the coup that toppled the Ukrainian government. Putin doesn't need your acknowledgement of that, and as such, he responded accordingly and Crimea is Russia.
 
Montecresto said:
Lol, wait a minute, because the Sri Lankan News pointed out her Jewishness, they're wrong about the Ukraine crisis. Ok, such desperation. And the first link, the Australian Gazette pointed out US intrigue in Ukraine but went on to talk about Australian issues, therefore they too are discredited. Whatever dude, you know, Russia's cameras and press were in maiden square, they've documented the fact that Western intrigue was behind the coup that toppled the Ukrainian government. Putin doesn't need your acknowledgement of that, and as such, he responded accordingly and Crimea is Russia.
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One mentions Ukraine once or twice, and only in passing, so it isn't proof of anything. The other, even without the explicit anti-Semitism, is claiming a dumb neocon global conspiracy. And neither link offers anything in the way of proof of covert ops except baseless assertions.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right. That still doesn't justify absorption of territory via military intervention.

Also, if there was actually a coup, Russia probably would have toppled the resulting regime rather than destabilizing the entire country. Think of what we did in Grenada - the coup government that Russian propaganda is asserting would be inherently unstable.
 
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MadLib said:
One mentions Ukraine once or twice, and only in passing, so it isn't proof of anything. The other, even without the explicit anti-Semitism, is claiming a dumb neocon global conspiracy. And neither link offers anything in the way of proof of covert ops except baseless assertions.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right. That still doesn't justify absorption of territory via military intervention.

Also, if there was actually a coup, Russia probably would have toppled the resulting regime rather than destabilizing the entire country. Think of what we did in Grenada - the coup government that Russian propaganda is asserting would be inherently unstable.
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I disagree that a US backed coup in Ukraine doesn't legitimise Russian annexation by referendum. Are you aware of how much NATO has expanded in the last twenty years. Russia (USSR) had assurances at the time that there would be none of that. Putins on solid ground in this.
 
Montecresto said:
I disagree that a US backed coup in Ukraine doesn't legitimise Russian annexation by referendum.
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Territorial conquest is practically the main issue that the UN was set up to prevent. Even if we were totally, completely, absolutely in the wrong in Ukraine, and the new government was formed as a result of a coup by neo-Nazis, that still doesn't mean that forcible annexation is A-OK.
 
MadLib said:
Territorial conquest is practically the main issue that the UN was set up to prevent. Even if we were totally, completely, absolutely in the wrong in Ukraine, and the new government was formed as a result of a coup by neo-Nazis, that still doesn't mean that forcible annexation is A-OK.
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It appears that you think that Russia just decided one day to go annex Crimea. What Putin realises, and correctly so, was that after the Western facilitated coup, their ports in Crimea were at risk. What he did is both reasonable, and distinguished from "territorial conquest" framed as such by you and others so as to imply imperialism. I stand by Putin's response to Western intrigue in Kiev, and, I hope the West doesn't push this so far as to make worse an already bad action.
 
Montecresto said:
Right, myself and others have posted it before,

You actually could google it yourself,

And it's not me digging holes. It's not important that you understand this, Putin does and has responded accordingly, which is why Crimea is Russia, lol!
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If it's so clear why can't you make your case? If everytime someone here made an assertion --without anything to back it up -- and when pressed for a link they said, "Google it yourself," how silly would that be?
 
Montecresto said:
Apparently, you aren't aware of the history of NATO. GHWBUSH promised Gorbachev that their would be no NATO expansion eastward as the Soviet Union withdrew their troops (some 350,000) from Eastern Europe. We all have seen how that worked out, and this latest was yet another expansion to the east that Russia is attempting to check. But as I said before, it doesn't matter what you and I think, Putin clearly saw the events that unfolded last fall and winter as a Western backed coup to topple the Ukrainian government and install a pro-West government, and he has said so, Lavrov has said so, and they have called bull**** and responded accordingly.
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There you go again. Just saying it was a western backed coup over and over agsin doesn't make it so.
 
Montecresto said:
You're welcome to rest if you must. It's funny that you don't know who Anonymous Ukraine is.

The Nation, is NOT a blog.

The Guardian is not a blog.

You, have been outsourced! Lol.
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Still waiting for a viable link not opinion pieces.

All of the above is worthless and you know it.
 
Mr.Nick said:
No you don't see it for what it is..... The Ukraine was NEVER a threat to Russia and Russia is the aggressor...

Russia is being a bully, they pulled the same crap with Georgia 5-6 years ago.....

The most ironic part is I bet you're anti-bullying to boot.
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He can't help it he has a mancrush on Putin.
 
Demon of Light said:
Yats is a blatant toadie. Just look at the partners for his foundation:

Partners - Open Ukraine: Arseniy Yatsenyuk foundation

One of his biggest backers is Ukrainian oligarch Victor Pinchuk, a close friend of the Clintons:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/13/u...ian-executive-with-ties-to-clintons.html?_r=0

Pinchuk also is founder of the group YES-Ukraine, which includes many current and former high-level European officials on its board:

YES Board - About YES - YES

No wonder Yats was "the guy" for the West!
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Another Russian sympathizer. No surprise there.
 
Montecresto said:
Oh, but that's not true. It's just that its done far more craftier.


Behind the U.S.-backed coup that ousted the democratically elected president of Ukraine are the economic interests of giant corporations – from Cargill to Chevron – which see the country as a potential “gold mine” of profits from agricultural and energy exploitation, reports JP Sottile.

Corporate Interests Behind Ukraine Putsch | Consortiumnews
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Oh boy now we're into conspiracies!
 
Montecresto said:
Ah yes. Ever face your fear in the eye? The Ukraine has again made accusations against Russia, and Russia is denying them. Why is it automatic with you and others that the Ukraine is telling the truth and Russia is lying?
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Why is it automatic wirh you that Russia is telling the truth and Ukraine is lying?
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Why is it automatic wirh you that Russia is telling the truth and Ukraine is lying?
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That's not always the case. Propaganda is a widely used tool. You just think that its never used by the west.
 
DDD said:
He rushed to make quick agreements with Ukraine? Backed up from the macho "I got nukes you better behave" attitude?
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Rushed. For eight months Obama and others have been telling Putin what to do, I haven't seen him in a hurry to do anything.
 
Montecresto said:
Rushed. For eight months Obama and others have been telling Putin what to do, I haven't seen him in a hurry to do anything.
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I call meetings that end in a day as "rushed." Further if Putin obliged to Obama's request then he is a puppet, unlike what you idealize him to be.
 
DDD said:
I call meetings that end in a day as "rushed." Further if Putin obliged to Obama's request then he is a puppet, unlike what you idealize him to be.
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Oh, ok. Putin is now a puppet of the West. In that case, what's all the fuss. And, if my support of Russia in what has been clearly a Western backed coup of the legitimate government of Kiev equates to idolatry of Putin. Then your support of Obama in carrying out the coup must equate to your own idolatry. Oh yes, and when will the "puppet" be returning Crimea?
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Another Russian sympathizer. No surprise there.
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I like how you just completely ignored the evidence I provided and went straight to the ad hominem arguments.
 
Montecresto said:
Oh, ok. Putin is now a puppet of the West. In that case, what's all the fuss. And, if my support of Russia in what has been clearly a Western backed coup of the legitimate government of Kiev equates to idolatry of Putin. Then your support of Obama in carrying out the coup must equate to your own idolatry. Oh yes, and when will the "puppet" be returning Crimea?
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Whenever reason comes back to him.

Further, Ukraine choose the EU/US, and there is nothing what Russia has to cry about that.
 
Demon of Light said:
I like how you just completely ignored the evidence I provided and went straight to the ad hominem arguments.
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It's what he's done through the entire thread. Basically its a waste.
 
Cryptic said:
Actually, nothren Ireland and eastern Ukraine are very similar.
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Oh sweet jesus.. you are arguing with person who's parents are/were Irish Republicans (father passed in the conflict), a person who's an Irish Republican himself (though I disagree with their socialist aspects and violence right now) and as a kid spent his summers in Belfast and surrounding areas what Northern Ireland is about.

Cryptic said:
The fact that Ukrainians and Russians were arguably one people 900 years ago does not mean they are close today. As for colonization, many Russians migrated to Donbass for industrial work starting in the 1890s. This migration continued through the communist era as industrialization expanded. So, like the ulster scots, there is a community that has resided in an area for generations, but is arguably not native.
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Ukrainians and Russia share the same royal family until 1917 (Bolshevik revolution). Before 1922 Ukraine didn't have a national identity, rather it was land that was split between Poland, Russia and left overs of the Austro-Hungarian empire. The Bolsheviks created a Ukrainization policy to help spread communism in the area. Russian immigrated the the area of Donbas long before 1890s. Donbas and as far as Odessa was known as Novorossiya (New Russia) and was formed in 1764 after the Russians pushed the Turks out of the area.




Cryptic said:
No, you cannot always tell Ulster Scot from Irish physically or by interests. There was alot of mistaken identity killings on both sides.
Likewise, you cant tell "Ukrainian" from "Russian" physically, nor is always easy to tell who is speaking "Russian" verse eastern Ukrainian dialect. Like the Ulster scots and Irish, there are seperate interests- but only to a degree.
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Physically, no, as they are white but genetically you can. Irish have some of the highest rates of haplogroup 1 gene in Europe and are more closely related to Basque people. Irish settled part of Scotland between 400-800 AD so there is some over lap but the levels drop off dramatically with Scots and English.

Interest wise there is a huge difference and why there has been trouble in Northern Ireland since 1600s as Culturally both sides don't mix. Ulster Scots support the Union. Irish support the Republic. Ulster Scots will support Rangers FC, Irish will support Celtic FC. Ulster Scots are Protestants, Irish are Catholic (this is 99% true, there cases otherwise). They live separate of each other. You live on Falls Road, you are Irish. You live on Shankill, you are Ulster Scot. There are about another dozen differences in interests and politically they disagree on.

What you are confusing is what you perceive from your own ears and eyes vs a person like me who spent years worth in Northern Ireland, have family there, visit family there regularly, parents were from there and I myself lived in the Republic for a few years myself. I can tell a difference in dialect and so can UK Government and the EU. ;) Hell in the Good Friday Agreement they recognize the difference. So before you go and tell me you can't tell the differences between groups, think about people who've lived there for years.

By the way.. two things before I finish out this part.. 1) I think wanting to be part of Russia or have your own country is a MAJOR difference, just as wanting to be part of the Republic of Ireland is a major difference then being part of the United Kingdom. 2) In war accidents happen or false intel is given but that "mistaken" identity crap is hooey.

Cryptic said:
Seperate Churches? Most western Ukrainians are Greek Catholic, or Ukrainian Orthodox (Kiev Patriachate). Eastern Ukrainians tend to be Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate), ethnic Russians tend to be Russian Orthodox.
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No, I am speaking of Northern Ireland. This is a difference that Ukraine doesn't have.

Cryptic said:
Seperate communites? Not so much, though there are towns and villages that are strongly ethnic Russian or ethnic Ukrainian. This may actually help as people need to live with their neighbors.
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Again, a difference between Northern Ireland and Ukraine. Separate communities are the norm in Northern Ireland. And it actually harms peace and assimilation as the British found out in Northern Ireland but Northern Ireland is so far gone is this aspect that its impossible to correct the problem quickly.


Cryptic said:
Things are not perfect in northeren Ireland? I believe you. And, yes, things are not going to be perfect in eastern Ukraine anytime soon. The goal, howevber, is not perfection. Rather, the goal is no continuos car bombs / grad exchanges. Likewise, I bet the northeren Irish can give some advise on generating the right circumstances.
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What you fail to understand is Northern Ireland and Ireland as a whole has spent 800 years and countless rebellions and such to achieve a half-assed attempt which will fail in the future. There are younger generations ( late X, Y and Z) who are waiting in the wings developing their hatred, their anger, and their abilities for a future conflict in Northern Ireland. They don't trust Sinn Fein and becoming more and more aggressive towards Sinn Fein. Hell, RIRA (the biggest of group) sent mail bombs to Army recruiting stations in England early this year, set of a car bomb this year as well.

The goal should be a long term solution. Not a half-assed that leads to wars later.

Just an FYI.. last time Irish and Ulster Scots (there is no such thing as Northern Irish, :cool:) gave advise in the world was over Iraq in the Helsinki Agreement (2007). How'd that go? Each country is different and needs their own answers.



Cryptic said:
Hopefully, those people can be cultivated. Good point about the no 3rd nation though. That is porbably the only valid point.
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Won't happen. Both sides are so far apart that people have chosen sides and there is no neutral voice in Ukraine.
 
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