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Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

Well I suppose you have nothing to rebut with but that old line. Actually though, dissent is not dislike, and wanting America to be better would only be seen as a negative by people that really do dislike.

Not rebutting anything. Just commenting on something that saddens me.
 
Not rebutting anything. Just commenting on something that saddens me.

In that case we must agree, what I've complained of saddens me as well.
 
... followed by a quite natural response from Ukraine, EU, and USA.

Well here's the deal DDD, the West started a problem they are impotent to repair. Russia will be tolerating no further NATO expansion, period!
 
Well here's the deal DDD, the West started a problem they are impotent to repair. Russia will be tolerating no further NATO expansion, period!

What are you blathering about? The West didn't start anything.
 
Well here's the deal DDD, the West started a problem they are impotent to repair. Russia will be tolerating no further NATO expansion, period!

No one started a problem. Ukraine is a free country and it can work with whomever it chooses to. I do not care of the Russian paranoid "NATO expansion" unsupported BS propaganda. Russia can take its intolerance and paranoid perceptions from Ukraine and us and divert them to China. Perhaps they may like it more than us.

Lastly, you are of no position to represent Russia, much less strike deals on its behalf.
 
What are you blathering about? The West didn't start anything.

Former CIA
By Ray McGovern

Washington’s role in the coup d’etat in Kiev on Feb. 22 has brought the U.S. a Pyrrhic victory, with the West claiming control of Ukraine albeit with a shaky grip that still requires the crushing of anti-coup rebels in the east. But the high-fiving may be short-lived once the full consequences of the putsch become clear.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/05/28/premature-us-victory-dancing-on-ukraine/

CFR’s flagship publication – Foreign Affairs – has just published a piece blaming the Ukraine crisis on the West.

The piece by John Mearsheimer – in it’s September/October 2014 issue – accurately notes:
The United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. The taproot of the trouble is NATO enlargement, the central element of a larger strategy to move Ukraine out of Russia’s orbit and integrate it into the West. At the same time, the EU’s expansion eastward and the West’s backing of the pro-democracy movement in Ukraine — beginning with the Orange Revolution in 2004 — were critical elements, too. Since the mid-1990s, Russian leaders have adamantly opposed NATO enlargement, and in recent years, they have made it clear that they would not stand by while their strategically important neighbor turned into a Western bastion. For Putin, the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president — which he rightly labeled a “coup” — was the final straw. He responded by taking Crimea, a peninsula he feared would host a NATO naval base, and working to destabilize Ukraine until it abandoned its efforts to join the West. Putin’s pushback should have come as no surprise. After all, the West had been moving into Russia’s backyard and threatening its core strategic interests, a point Putin made emphatically and repeatedly. Elites in the United States and Europe have been blindsided by events only because they subscribe to a flawed view of international politics.
 
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China has weighed in and upset BO peeps plan.....not to mention the Europeans aren't so in a rush to add any more on.



China opposes proposed EU sanctions against Russia....

China opposed additional sanctions against Russia on Monday over accusations Moscow was sending troops into Ukrainian territory, saying the European Union's push to draw up more measures would only complicate the crisis.

The European Union on Sunday threatened Russia with new trade sanctions, but sharp divisions among leaders at a summit in Brussels left the timing of any measures uncertain.....snip~

China opposes proposed EU sanctions against Russia
 
Look how many thoughts and how many people have written in this thread. As if all of you worried about the Ukraine. They made problems by themselves. This is theater of the absurd. Why do you care when we have so many internal problems? Maybe you forgot about immigrants? Or I should remind you of the upcoming elections, which will not give us a choice? Or have you forgotten about the problems of our social policy?
 
Look how many thoughts and how many people have written in this thread. As if all of you worried about the Ukraine. They made problems by themselves. This is theater of the absurd. Why do you care when we have so many internal problems? Maybe you forgot about immigrants? Or I should remind you of the upcoming elections, which will not give us a choice? Or have you forgotten about the problems of our social policy?

So when did you immigrate to the U.S.? From your posts it is clear that you are not a native English speaker, I'm guessing a Russian native.
 
I know of them of course. I do not see the similarities though. In this case it just is about Russia's annexation. In our case we were liberated and no other greater country annexed us, we were left on our own.

that is your assumption. At no point has Russia indicated that it will annex Donetsk, rather Russia position has been to ask Ukraine to accept a policy of Autonomy for them.


But independence does not occurs does it oh great Austrian Icon? Parts of countries are being annexed one after the other?!

What's been annexed? Crimea voted for independence and ask for membership into Russia, that's their choice. No different then the US having a standing position in it's early years under the Article of Confederation to accept Canada if it choose to leave the UK.
 
that is your assumption. At no point has Russia indicated that it will annex Donetsk, rather Russia position has been to ask Ukraine to accept a policy of Autonomy for them.

Just like Crimea was annexed, next stop is Donetsk, and so on and so forth.

What's been annexed? Crimea voted for independence and ask for membership into Russia, that's their choice. No different then the US having a standing position in it's early years under the Article of Confederation to accept Canada if it choose to leave the UK.
[/QUOTE]

It was a Russian inside job that ended quickly and non transparently.
 
At no point has Russia indicated that it will annex Donetsk, rather Russia position has been to ask Ukraine to accept a policy of Autonomy for them.
The Russian proposal for autonomy (federation) in east Ukraine is quite unlike Swiss or American federation. Under the Russian schema, the federalized oblasts in the east (Luhansk/Donetsk) would be able to ratify foreign economic and military treaties independent of Kyiv. In essence, a country within a country conducting foreign relations that are at odds with the national government. The Russian Federation itself would never grant its constituent regions such independence from the central Moscow government. What the Russian schema/demand amounts to, is dismemberment by other means.
 
Putin has stated on numerous occasions that Russias and Urkainians are one people and that the borders are "artificial". Maidan or no Maidan, Putin was going to address the Ukrainian questions sooner than later. He is not going to allow Urkaine to go western with out a fight. Rather, he was going to try restore Ukraine to its "proper relationship" with Russia.

I don't disagree with that. Do you think our government was unaware of it. Why did they provide him the impetus and the legitimacy.
 
... followed by a quite natural response from Ukraine, EU, and USA.

Sure, except Russia's response has been effective, while the others, not so much.
 
No one started a problem. Ukraine is a free country and it can work with whomever it chooses to. I do not care of the Russian paranoid "NATO expansion" unsupported BS propaganda. Russia can take its intolerance and paranoid perceptions from Ukraine and us and divert them to China. Perhaps they may like it more than us.

Lastly, you are of no position to represent Russia, much less strike deals on its behalf.

How do you suppose I claimed to be a broker for Russia? My observations tell me that the West made an attempt to expand NATO eastward, that's hardly propaganda. I have also observed that Russia immediately called Bull**** and moved to counter it. It's in their utmost interest to prevent it. I also am observing that Western response to Russia's response hasn't backed Russia up one bit. It would appear that Russia is willing to pay the price to protect their interests, naturally.
 
Well, you saw the "period" word, so I guess Monte has a final say on these matters.

Actually, Russian resolve and unflinching is the "period"! Deal with it.
 
China has weighed in and upset BO peeps plan.....not to mention the Europeans aren't so in a rush to add any more on.



China opposes proposed EU sanctions against Russia....

China opposed additional sanctions against Russia on Monday over accusations Moscow was sending troops into Ukrainian territory, saying the European Union's push to draw up more measures would only complicate the crisis.

The European Union on Sunday threatened Russia with new trade sanctions, but sharp divisions among leaders at a summit in Brussels left the timing of any measures uncertain.....snip~

China opposes proposed EU sanctions against Russia


Hey bud, yeah and I believe the longer this goes, and the more the West may push against Russia, the more we'll see China supporting Russia.
 
Look how many thoughts and how many people have written in this thread. As if all of you worried about the Ukraine. They made problems by themselves. This is theater of the absurd. Why do you care when we have so many internal problems? Maybe you forgot about immigrants? Or I should remind you of the upcoming elections, which will not give us a choice? Or have you forgotten about the problems of our social policy?

We are concerned because there are some that article 5 "requires" military support for Ukraine, though they aren't a NATO member. I have concern because I wouldn't like to see the US involved in a military action against Russia either directly or indirectly.
 
Hey bud, yeah and I believe the longer this goes, and the more the West may push against Russia, the more we'll see China supporting Russia.

Heya Monte. :2wave: Didn't Russia's and China's Oil deal go thru? Are they not accepting each others currency and not converting to the US dollar? War Games and exercises together. Plus both having disputes with us and now the Chinese refusing BO's Proposal for that region and the disputes with Vietnam, Japan, and the Philippines?

I think they will be supporting each other for some time.....and solidly.
 
I don't disagree with that. Do you think our government was unaware of it. Why did they provide him the impetus and the legitimacy.

I think our government was aware that Putin has the general desire to bring Belarus and Ukraine "back into the fold".

Aruably, the small scale annexing of south Ossetia and Abkhazia should have been red flags that Putin had an intense desire to bring Ukraine and Belarus back- and would use force to do it.

At the end of the day though- Obama does not live in a world where leaders, espescially European leaders, use humans as chess pieces and try to sieze entire European nations. As a result, Putin's Old school attitudes and intense actions caught everyone by surprise.
 
Precisely. And Yanukovych cut off negotiations with the EU and had signed deals with Russia. This implemented a US/EU supported coup, a violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government, and installation of a pro-Western government, immediately (conveniently) recognised by the West. This is fact, and it doesn't matter whether or not you accept it. Russia called bull****, and they seem prepared to pay the price to maintain a buffer between them and the EU. Hopefully, the EU won't push it to the point of all out war.

Still waiting for that link or links that prove your contentions. How many weeks will I have to wait until you admit this is all conjecture?
 
No! The Ukraine chose Russia and the government was overthrown by a US/EU backed coup. If you want Russia to back up, as you stated earlier, you better start pushing. So far, Russia appears resolute.

Actually a lot of the populace wanted to go with the EU and cried foul when Russian's puppet didn't.



In 2012, the EU initialled deals on free trade and political association with Ukraine; however, EU leaders stated that these agreements would not be ratified unless Ukraine addresses concerns over a "stark deterioration of democracy and the rule of law", including the imprisonment of Yulia Tymoshenko and Yuriy Lutsenko in 2011 and 2012.[2][3][4][nb 1] Deadlines where set for Ukraine to carry out the required changes to its justice and electoral systems in order to enable the formal signing of their agreements with the EU in Vilnius on 29 November 2013.[8] But although the then Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych had urged the Ukrainian parliament to adopt laws so that Ukraine could meet the EU's criteria,[9][10][nb 2] the Ukrainian government suspended preparations for signing the association agreement on 21 November 2013.[6][12] Yanukovych still attended the aforementioned EU summit in Vilnius on 28–29 November 2013 where the association agreement was originally planned to be signed but it was not.[9][13] The decision to put off signing the association agreement led to large, widespread protests in Ukraine.[14] These led to the removal of Yanukovych and his government by parliament after the 2014 Ukrainian revolution in February 2014.[6][15] Since then Ukraine is in turmoil because of the 2014 Crimean crisis and the 2014 pro-Russian conflict in Ukraine.[1][6]

The political part of the Association Agreement was signed on 21 March 2014 by the new Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk.[1] Meanwhile the EU has attempted to stabilise Ukraine by freezing assets of Russians and Ukrainians and by granting financial help to Ukraine.[1][6][16] The economic part of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement on 27 June 2014 by the new President, Petro Poroshenko.[17]

Ukraine
 
How do you suppose I claimed to be a broker for Russia? My observations tell me that the West made an attempt to expand NATO eastward, that's hardly propaganda. I have also observed that Russia immediately called Bull**** and moved to counter it. It's in their utmost interest to prevent it. I also am observing that Western response to Russia's response hasn't backed Russia up one bit. It would appear that Russia is willing to pay the price to protect their interests, naturally.


You have it wrong and overly simplistic. You really need to do some more reading of reliable sources. Of course the west would love to have Ukraine as part of the west but you have your facts wrong.
 
Still waiting for that link or links that prove your contentions. How many weeks will I have to wait until you admit this is all conjecture?

Still waiting for you to be precise. For what do you want a link. That the US was covertly involved in the situation that led to the overthrow of the Kiev government and implementation of a pro-Western government. Or that Russia's response is natural, and likely that they are willing to pay the cost to deny Ukraine becoming a NATO member, or perhaps something else you wish for.
 
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