Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

roguenuke said:

I've never said the action was appropriate. It was likely done in the heat of the moment, an attempt to stop him from running after Wilson tried to open his door to get to them and had it shut back on him. He likely grabbed for them, and managed to get a hold on Brown. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It was almost certainly a reaction.

It is much more probable that the officer was trying to stop them for suspicion of being the robbery suspects than for him simply being on a power trip. There is no indication (so far) that this officer was the type to go on "power trips" to begin with. There is an indication though that he is willing to stop and detain/apprehend suspects when they are suspected of having committed a crime since that is what he basically got his commendation for about 6 months before the incident.

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How do you know this? We do know that he was shooting, recklessly I might add (a bullet was found in the side of a building), at a fleeing man. We also know that Wilson didn't have to back up the vehicle in that manner. Why not just get out where he was and tell Brown to surrender... with his hand on his tazer? His actions, on their face, was bizarre.

Do you think there was an indication that Brown was a complete maniac? Because he would have to do to flee from shots fired, then turn and taunt the guy shooting at him to shoot.... then charges the officer.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Excon said:

Which would go to his not being shot at first.
And the spontaneous witness clearly indicated that he continued toward the Officer as the Officer shot.

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One witness' claim does not override the claim of 3 or 4 others that have stated Wilson got out of the car shooting.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

How do you know this? We do know that he was shooting, recklessly I might add (a bullet was found in the side of a building), at a fleeing man.

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You know no such thing.
It is far more likely that the bullet came from the discharge in the struggle with Brown. As the angle clearly is not toward someone running in the direction Brown ran.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

One witness' claim does not override the claim of 3 or 4 others that have stated Wilson got out of the car shooting.

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:doh

When those witnesses are not credible. Yes it does.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Excon said:

:doh

When those witnesses are not credible. Yes it does.

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what causes their testimonies to be found incredible?

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

justabubba said:

no doubt, that is a possibility
only it has been presented as what must have occurred ... and it is that assessment with which i disagree


then it would appear your presentation is that by reversing his vehicle towards them, he was in stealth mode, attempting to conceal his intent to approach them, refusing to alert them of his intent with lights and siren
and my conclusion is that this is a baseless premise, based on what has been presented
the pedestrians did not leave the scene in their efforts to escape, recognizing the police vehicle was backing up towards them
the patrol car driver-side door was opened against one of them, indicating they were in no hurry to avoid the cop's presence, otherwise, such contact would not have been made as they were fleeing the scene
to me, this most indicates the pedestrians were indifferent to the patrolman's directions, both when he departed them initially, after telling them to get out of the street, and upon his return, when they had not. hardly the actions of parties concerned about being apprehended for their actions, as pedestrians or as strong-arm robbers
my surmise is that this dismissal of the patrolman and his directions is what caused the cop to return towards the pedestrians in the unannounced manner, aggravated that they refused to heed his directions
but my assessment is preliminary, formed by speculation, rather than the complete facts, which have yet to be disclosed

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All they knew by him backing up is that he was coming back toward them. Obviously, it didn't cause them to bolt right away. This was likely due to the fact that they didn't know why he was coming back toward them. Maybe they thought it was because of them remaining in the road (if they did) or something else.

We only have the other guy's statement that the door was opened against one of them which caused it to close back. That hasn't been confirmed anymore than the reason why Wilson came back to them.

You are presuming the officer had to have some reason related to him just being a jerk to come back towards them rather than the more likely reason that he had realized they were suspects in a robbery that had just recently occurred (and we know they were involved in by the friend's own admission). There is simply no logical reason to assume he would just be a jerk to them because they weren't getting out of the street. There is also no reason why he would try to apprehend them for just refusing to move from the street. It is much more likely that he would try to apprehend them for being suspects in a robbery.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Excon said:

:doh

When those witnesses are not credible. Yes it does.

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Why are they not credible? Because you don't like their version of events?

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

How do you know this? We do know that he was shooting, recklessly I might add (a bullet was found in the side of a building), at a fleeing man. We also know that Wilson didn't have to back up the vehicle in that manner. Why not just get out where he was and tell Brown to surrender... with his hand on his tazer? His actions, on their face, was bizarre.

Do you think there was an indication that Brown was a complete maniac? Because he would have to do to flee from shots fired, then turn and taunt the guy shooting at him to shoot.... then charges the officer.

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Do you know that the bullet came from his shooting at Brown or that it might have been the bullet from the discharge in the vehicle, which would have been off if they were actually struggling for the weapon even just seconds before?

In reality, it doesn't matter if he was fleeing or not.

I have no idea what Brown's mindset was. He wouldn't have to be a "complete maniac" at all. People do dumb crap all the time, especially when they are young. The guy just allegedly robbed a store. He also allegedly punched/hit a cop trying to apprehend him, possibly even trying to get the police officer's weapon. If we assume he did all these things, it is possible that he might be willing to also charge that cop in an attempt to throw the cop off or just gain an advantage in his escape. He may have believed that Wilson wouldn't have been willing to shoot him. Then it could have just been he was moving forward because he didn't realize he shouldn't. I've never said that he was definitely charging at Wilson. In fact, I doubt it was a full out attempt to run towards him. But movement towards a police officer who is aiming a weapon at you can be considered "aggressive" even if you do not mean it to be. That is why you don't do it. "Freeze!" may be a cliche but that doesn't mean it you shouldn't act on it if a cop is chasing you, especially with his weapon out and shooting at you. You let him tell you what to do instead of making moves that could be considered acts of aggression, particularly if you are bigger than him and just hit/punched him once already.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

roguenuke said:

Do you know that the bullet came from his shooting at Brown or that it might have been the bullet from the discharge in the vehicle, which would have been off if they were actually struggling for the weapon even just seconds before?

In reality, it doesn't matter if he was fleeing or not.

I have no idea what Brown's mindset was. He wouldn't have to be a "complete maniac" at all. People do dumb crap all the time, especially when they are young. The guy just allegedly robbed a store. He also allegedly punched/hit a cop trying to apprehend him, possibly even trying to get the police officer's weapon. If we assume he did all these things, it is possible that he might be willing to also charge that cop in an attempt to throw the cop off or just gain an advantage in his escape. He may have believed that Wilson wouldn't have been willing to shoot him. Then it could have just been he was moving forward because he didn't realize he shouldn't. I've never said that he was definitely charging at Wilson. In fact, I doubt it was a full out attempt to run towards him. But movement towards a police officer who is aiming a weapon at you can be considered "aggressive" even if you do not mean it to be. That is why you don't do it. "Freeze!" may be a cliche but that doesn't mean it you shouldn't act on it if a cop is chasing you, especially with his weapon out and shooting at you. You let him tell you what to do instead of making moves that could be considered acts of aggression, particularly if you are bigger than him and just hit/punched him once already.

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Do you realize your entire scenario depends on Wilson being "good" and Brown being "bad"?

In my view they're both jackasses. One of them had a gun, thus we have a corpse.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

One witness' claim does not override the claim of 3 or 4 others that have stated Wilson got out of the car shooting.

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Without comment other than, if it's strictly about numbers:

Police sources tell me more than a dozen witnesses have corroborated cop's version of events in shooting #Ferguson

— Christine Byers (@ChristineDByers) August 19, 2014

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Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

opendebate said:

Yes I did. Did you listen to it with an open mind?

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Please prove how your mind is open? Taking an opposing view does not prove you are open. It appears that assuming the officer is a blood-thirsty racist bastard would constitute an open mind in your world, wouldn't it? Did you know that they actually have professionals trained in audio analysis; so how would you or I accurately interpret the audio with no training whatsoever?

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

Do you realize your entire scenario depends on Wilson being "good" and Brown being "bad"?

In my view they're both jackasses. One of them had a gun, thus we have a corpse.

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No, it doesn't. Wilson could be a complete ass, and still have been justified in shooting Brown. And Brown could have been innocent of everything and just made a mistake in his reactions to how he was being dealt with. You don't run from a cop. What is so hard to figure out about that? There would have been no reason for him to run from Wilson to begin with. Then, he almost certainly hit Wilson, likely so that he'd be released. You don't hit a cop. If you are being wrongfully detained/arrested, deal with it through the courts. And then he did turn back towards Wilson. I have no idea if he moved toward Wilson or not or if he was trying to surrender or preparing to charge. I don't know, but neither do you. I am making the assumptions that some don't want to make about Wilson being justified to shoot Brown, instead of assuming that the shooting was automatically unjustified.

We have information though that Brown was involved in a strong arm robbery earlier that day. We have information that he did hit Officer Wilson. And there is at least some vague information that Brown did come back toward Wilson after he turned from the video from after the shooting, and the bystander that said Brown kept coming back towards him and that was why he thought Wilson had missed while shooting at him. Some of this information could be wrong, all of it could be wrong. But this is what we are speculating off of.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

Why are they not credible? Because you don't like their version of events?

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justabubba said:

what causes their testimonies to be found incredible?

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Really?
You need to ask?
Really? :doh

We already know Dorian lied about Brown being shot in the back.
We already know he lied by omission about the robbery.
We already know his account sounds contrived and is scripted to cast the Officer in a negative light and cast their actions in good light.
We already know he has changed portions of his account.


The two girls - While both girls did this PCrenshaw doing this is confirmed - We already know they changed portions of their account.


And really. The scenario they lay out is incredible to begin with.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

buck said:

Without comment other than, if it's strictly about numbers:

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I'd like to read their accounts, but for now it's just hearsay.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

roguenuke said:

No, it doesn't. Wilson could be a complete ass, and still have been justified in shooting Brown. And Brown could have been innocent of everything and just made a mistake in his reactions to how he was being dealt with. You don't run from a cop. What is so hard to figure out about that? There would have been no reason for him to run from Wilson to begin with. Then, he almost certainly hit Wilson, likely so that he'd be released. You don't hit a cop. If you are being wrongfully detained/arrested, deal with it through the courts. And then he did turn back towards Wilson. I have no idea if he moved toward Wilson or not or if he was trying to surrender or preparing to charge. I don't know, but neither do you. I am making the assumptions that some don't want to make about Wilson being justified to shoot Brown, instead of assuming that the shooting was automatically unjustified.

We have information though that Brown was involved in a strong arm robbery earlier that day. We have information that he did hit Officer Wilson. And there is at least some vague information that Brown did come back toward Wilson after he turned from the video from after the shooting, and the bystander that said Brown kept coming back towards him and that was why he thought Wilson had missed while shooting at him. Some of this information could be wrong, all of it could be wrong. But this is what we are speculating off of.

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If the gun actually went off in the car, then yeah... it would make sense that Brown ran.

There's no proof that Wilson was hit. No medical records that I'm aware of to confirm that, unless you have something to verify that claim?

As for the bystander... he does not say WHO was still coming. He could have been addressing the cop moving forward as he was shooting.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

If the gun actually went off in the car, then yeah... it would make sense that Brown ran.

There's no proof that Wilson was hit. No medical records that I'm aware of to confirm that, unless you have something to verify that claim?

As for the bystander... he does not say WHO was still coming. He could have been addressing the cop moving forward as he was shooting.

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He was trying to run before that though.

Are you trying to say that you don't believe that Wilson was hit by Brown? Why would they lie about that?

Context tells us who was still coming. He said that "he was coming back towards him". Wilson would have still been moving in the same direction towards Brown. Brown however had turned back towards Wilson, meaning he would have been the most likely one referred to since he would have been the one most likely to be going "back". Is it possible that it was Wilson he was referring to? Yes. I've said that the information could be wrong or it could be being misinterpreted.

But I give people the benefit of the doubt, particularly when there is conflicting stories and information and people automatically scream "racism" when something like this happens. I want to know the facts. So far, I haven't seen any facts that tell me this was an act of racism at all, even if it was an unjustifiable shooting. And I don't know whether it is or isn't. I do know that very few people can actually determine right now if the shooting was justified or not, and none of them are in the media or on this board.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

The location of the wounds should tell folks a lot about the aim.
An Officer fires at center mass.
Not counting the wound Brown supposedly received at the vehicle, all the wounds are on the right part of the body except for the last round (in the top of the head) delivered at a closer range.
That shows the Officer's aim is consistent.
If he was firing at Brown as he ran away, and struck him, the wound would be consistent with his aim and likely be on Browns back left, not on his right side.


And as the Washington Post has reported.
Buried in the 59 paragraph.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

I'd like to read their accounts, but for now it's just hearsay.

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Completely agree... But... maybe you shouldn't worry about 4 wittness accounts so far made public disputing the officer and using it as a numbers game against the one that was made public supporting.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

roguenuke said:

All they knew by him backing up is that he was coming back toward them. Obviously, it didn't cause them to bolt right away. This was likely due to the fact that they didn't know why he was coming back toward them. Maybe they thought it was because of them remaining in the road (if they did) or something else.

We only have the other guy's statement that the door was opened against one of them which caused it to close back. That hasn't been confirmed anymore than the reason why Wilson came back to them.

You are presuming the officer had to have some reason related to him just being a jerk to come back towards them rather than the more likely reason that he had realized they were suspects in a robbery that had just recently occurred (and we know they were involved in by the friend's own admission). There is simply no logical reason to assume he would just be a jerk to them because they weren't getting out of the street. There is also no reason why he would try to apprehend them for just refusing to move from the street. It is much more likely that he would try to apprehend them for being suspects in a robbery.

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[emphasis added by bubba]
the deceased was a large guy
apprehending him thru the driver-side window of the patrol car makes no rational sense. but from what we have learned, that is what the patrolman appears to have done
the absence of rational behavior by him is what causes me to now conclude he was acting irrationally; likely agitated by the failure of the pedestrians to follow his command to leave the street

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

justabubba said:

that is what the patrolman appears to have done

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:doh
Only if one believes the incredible accounts.
:lamo

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Excon said:

The location of the wounds should tell folks a lot about the aim.
An Officer fires at center mass.
Not counting the wound Brown supposedly received at the vehicle, all the wounds are on the right part of the body except for the last round (in the top of the head) delivered at a closer range.
That shows the Officer's aim is consistent.
If he was firing at Brown as he ran away, and struck him, the wound would be consistent with his aim and likely be on Browns back left, not on his right side.


And as the Washington Post has reported.
Buried in the 59 paragraph.

The funeral was held Aug. 25 and televised on CNN. His body had been autopsied three times — once each by St. Louis County police, a pathologist hired by Brown’s family and federal authorities. All found that Brown had been shot at least six times, including twice in the head but not in the back.

Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson, the friend who witnessed his shooting - The Washington Post​

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Same article as above.


Federal Protective Custody?

The only people he has to be afraid of are those from his community, if, and only if he flipped his script.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

justabubba said:

[emphasis added by bubba]
the deceased was a large guy
apprehending him thru the driver-side window of the patrol car makes no rational sense. but from what we have learned, that is what the patrolman appears to have done
the absence of rational behavior by him is what causes me to now conclude he was acting irrationally; likely agitated by the failure of the pedestrians to follow his command to leave the street

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He originally opened his door. The door was then shut on him (whether purposely or by accident, isn't yet determined). So likely he just grabbed hold and was trying to get Brown to surrender to be put under arrest. Big or not, the heat of the moment doesn't really allow much time for things like that to make a determination as to whether he should or shouldn't grab Brown to stop him from leaving when he was most likely planning on arresting him. I did not mean that he was trying to pull Brown through the vehicle window (as apparently some earlier assumed). But by trying to keep him there, he might have been able to hold onto Brown long enough for backup to arrive. It is also possible, that had Brown been more cooperative, he could have gotten him into the vehicle after the initial attempt to flee.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

Tettsuo said:

If the gun actually went off in the car, then yeah... it would make sense that Brown ran.

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yes, if a cop was holding onto me thru the driver side window, taking a shot at point blank, running away is my next move if i had been unable to disarm him

There's no proof that Wilson was hit. No medical records that I'm aware of to confirm that, unless you have something to verify that claim?

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i cannot imagine that the cop was not hit. it has been presented that the pedestrian was being restrained thru the patrol car window. we know that the pedestrian did not then surrender, which indicates he likely fought the cop to get away from his grasp. the likelihood that the cop was struck seems high

As for the bystander... he does not say WHO was still coming. He could have been addressing the cop moving forward as he was shooting.

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too little certainty in all of this

now a question. why is the DOJ investigating this as a racially motivated incident? other than the cop being white and the deceased being black, what racial component has been identified to cause it to be found a racially charged incident?

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

justabubba said:

now a question. why is the DOJ investigating this as a racially motivated incident? other than the cop being white and the deceased being black, what racial component has been identified to cause it to be found a racially charged incident?

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If the police are targeting Americans of a certain skin color, then it's racial... thus the incident typifies this behavior of unfair treatment.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

buck said:

Completely agree... But... maybe you shouldn't worry about 4 wittness accounts so far made public disputing the officer and using it as a numbers game against the one that was made public supporting.

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You can't count the numbers of imaginary witnesses. Those 12 are exactly that until they actually make statements. Much like the officers statement that hasn't been made public... why is that btw?