Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

vesper said:

I sure as heck wouldn't be doing guest appearances on CNN or other networks. I would be mourning the loss of my child regardless the circumstances. I would also wait before making comments till all the evidence was presented to me. It was the parents/family that started that barrage describing Brown as a "gentle giant" that the media repeated ad nauseam across this nation just prior to the video released showing the "gentle giant" strong arming a store clerk during a robbery of Swisher Sweets.

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The parents anger is justified. What you would do is totally irrelevant to what someone else in their situation would do. Consider what the parents, especially the mother might have gone through to get that boy to finish HS and without a police record. He was due to start college this fall. Do you have any idea what that might mean to a black family? I doubt you do.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

roguenuke said:

Because that is making an assumption of guilt based on association. It isn't right. It does happen, especially when it comes to something like whether or not to fire everyone at a specific place of employment due to some sort of scandal or widespread misconduct. It does happen where even those who are innocent of any wrongdoing, or at least the wrongdoing the others are accused of are still fired or let go because of this. It is a flaw in our system that has very little remedy until we can teach the majority of people to judge individuals, not groups.

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I agree.

Assuming a former member of a police force did something wrong simply because they were a member of that police force and said police force had accountability issues or whatever...

That's basically the same as "guilty until proven innocent".

Which is what a bunch of people seem to react with when we have one of these mad situations like in Ferguson.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

roguenuke said:

Did you not notice that the guy keeps referring to Wilson as "the police", and then refers to Brown as "he", "him", or some other masculine pronoun? Every single time the guy refers to the officer he says "the police" or "they". That is what makes me believe that it is Brown that the guy is referring to when he started speaking about the movement back.

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Damn, I really thought you were going to watch the video.

Starting at 8:29:
"The police officer was like..he's like ten yards away from him. And I'm thinking that...the dude was still standing and I'm thinking that he missing him...and then he kept coming towards him."

In this specific exchange, prior to saying "he kept coming towards him" the man in the video used "he" (the subject of the verb) to refer to Wilson 2 times and Brown 0 times, and "him" (the object of the verb) to refer to Brown "2" times and Wilson 0 times. The single time he used Brown as the subject of the verb, he used "the dude" and not "he."

So it's clear to me that you are like everyone else who is more interested in hearing and seeing what you want to see than you are in the reality of what happened.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

JC_CT said:

Damn, I really thought you were going to watch the video.

Starting at 8:29:
"The police officer was like..he's like ten yards away from him. And I'm thinking that...the dude was still standing and I'm thinking that he missing him...and then he kept coming towards him."

In this specific exchange, prior to saying "he kept coming towards him" the man in the video used "he" (the subject of the verb) to refer to Wilson 2 times and Brown 0 times, and "him" (the object of the verb) to refer to Brown "2" times and Wilson 0 times. The single time he used Brown as the subject of the verb, he used the "the dude" and not "he."

So it's clear to me that you are like everyone else who is more interested in hearing and seeing what you want to see than you are in the reality of what happened.

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I did watch the video, multiple times, and I didn't hear what you posted. I heard him refer to Wilson as "the police" multiple times, including after he made that comment. He normally referred to him as "they", as did his friend. You are assuming he is talking about Wilson coming toward Brown, but that doesn't make sense because he says that after Brown turned that "he came back toward them/him", indicating going in a different direction, which Wilson wouldn't have been doing. Wilson would have been continuing in the same direction, toward Brown. But if Brown were the one moving, that would make sense because he would be going "back" toward Wilson from the way he had came.

The fact that we heard different things in itself shows how people perceive different sensory input, and calls into question what any of the witnesses actually saw.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

roguenuke said:

I did watch the video, multiple times, and I didn't hear what you posted.

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Here is the video I am listening to.
http://uneditedpolitics.com/ace-joh...rmath-of-michael-brown-shooting-graphic-8914/

The exchange of reference starts at 8:29.

What do you hear???

Maybe the first "he's like" was "at least." After that it is as clear as day.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

JC_CT said:

Here is the video I am listening to.
Ace Johnson Cellphone Video of Aftermath of Michael Brown Shooting (Graphic) – 8/9/14 | Unedited Politics

The exchange of reference starts at 8:29.

What do you hear???

Maybe the first "he's like" was "at least." After that it is as clear as day.

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I told you what I heard. Plus, I'm not watching that one again. It messes with my computer every time. It is annoying.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

roguenuke said:

I told you what I heard. Plus, I'm not watching that one again. It messes with my computer every time. It is annoying.

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You weren't even talking about the same exchange in the video. We all know that Brown stopped and turned back around to face towards Wilson. How exactly does that prove that Brown then proceeded to run full speed at Wilson?

It is the "he kept coming towards him" line, that occurred 2 minutes after that, which is being used to corroborate Wilson's version and justify the multiple shots.

Here is the direct YouTube link. Start at 8:29.
http://youtu.be/VdL9dqkyjhM

The thing that people are forgetting is that Wilson was running towards Brown.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

JC_CT said:

You weren't even talking about the same exchange in the video. We all know that Brown stopped and turned around. How exactly does that prove that Brown then proceeded to run full speed at Wilson?

It is the "he kept coming towards him" line, that occurred 2 minutes after that, which is being used to corroborate Wilson's version and justify the multiple shots.

Here is the direct YouTube link. Start at 8:29.
Mike Brown EyeWitness Crime Scene Video Ferguson, MO - YouTube

The thing that people are forgetting is that Wilson was running towards Brown.

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The guy said that "next thing I know he coming back toward him/them" at about 6:55. That is what the guy says.

I never said anything about Brown running at Wilson. He only had to move toward him to become a potential threat. Doesn't require running. Only Brown moving toward Wilson, after he turned.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

roguenuke said:

The guy said that "next thing I know he coming back toward him/them" at about 6:55. That is what the guy says.

I never said anything about Brown running at Wilson. He only had to move toward him to become a potential threat. Doesn't require running. Only Brown moving toward Wilson, after he turned.

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WHAT? It wouldn't have mattered if is hands were up, or maybe even was stumbling forward and potentially about to collapse to the ground after having been shot next to the car and then having just sprinted 35 feet?

The only thing that mattered matter is if he was moving forward? An inch forward = four more shots?

Do people really think this way?

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

JC_CT said:

WHAT? It wouldn't have mattered if is hands were up, or maybe even was stumbling forward and potentially about to collapse to the ground after having been shot next to the car and then having just sprinted 35 feet?

The only thing that mattered matter is if he was moving forward? An inch forward = four more shots?

Do people really think this way?

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We don't know how it looked to the police officer. And even Johnson said that Brown's hands were far up. It could mean many things. We don't actually know what happened. In reality, you don't move toward the cop when he is holding a gun on you. You comply with instructions. If he didn't get a chance, then that is murder. If he didn't move and was actually surrendering, then it is most likely murder. We don't really know though, and witness testimony is not completely reliable. Plus, there is some that does match what little we got from the police so far, that Brown moved toward Wilson. It is even possible that the eye injury, even if just a punch that caused some swelling, could have affected his vision and forward movement did look threatening even if it was unintentional. If that is what happened, do you charge the cop anyway with shooting because he didn't know even if that is procedure? These are hard questions, but people need to understand that this is not a cut and dry situation.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

roguenuke said:

We don't know how it looked to the police officer. And even Johnson said that Brown's hands were far up. It could mean many things. We don't actually know what happened. In reality, you don't move toward the cop when he is holding a gun on you. You comply with instructions. If he didn't get a chance, then that is murder. If he didn't move and was actually surrendering, then it is most likely murder. We don't really know though, and witness testimony is not completely reliable. Plus, there is some that does match what little we got from the police so far, that Brown moved toward Wilson. It is even possible that the eye injury, even if just a punch that caused some swelling, could have affected his vision and forward movement did look threatening even if it was unintentional. If that is what happened, do you charge the cop anyway with shooting because he didn't know even if that is procedure? These are hard questions, but people need to understand that this is not a cut and dry situation.

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The cop put a stray bullet into someone's house. If he couldn't see, he shouldn't have been shooting.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

JC_CT said:

The cop put a stray bullet into someone's house. If he couldn't see, he shouldn't have been shooting.

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Which is something that should be addressed, but it depends on how much of loss of vision it may have been, if any. Judgment call at the moment. Its easy for you to look in on the situation and claim "he shouldn't have...". But you weren't in his shoes, with his training. You don't really know what he should or shouldn't have done for whatever his situation was at that time.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

roguenuke said:

Which is something that should be addressed, but it depends on how much of loss of vision it may have been, if any. Judgment call at the moment. Its easy for you to look in on the situation and claim "he shouldn't have...". But you weren't in his shoes, with his training. You don't really know what he should or shouldn't have done for whatever his situation was at that time.

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Evidence that he had ANY vision loss?

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

No it's fine, keep playing the what if game to fit possible narratives that justify shooting an unarmed young black man to death in the middle of the street in broad daylight. Question any and all evidence that is indicating that he wasn't justified, and counter with the argument that there could be evidence that says the opposite.

Discount black people's testimony as unreliable, regardless of how many are saying the same thing. Use a guy in the background of a video that cannot with any certainty be concluded to directly contradict the existing eyewitnesses and in fact can barely even be heard, and call it "new evidence that changes everything."

Ignore the fact that Wilson's version does not include shots being fired while Brown is running away, despite all known eyewitness testimony saying that shots were fired at his back, the NY Times reporting that law enforcement officials have confirmed this, and now a verified audio recording of the gun shots which is consistent with the eyewitness accounts. Continue under the assumption that the rest of Wilson's version is the most likely truth. Continue to give him the benefit of the doubt, and continue to ignore the dead man lying in the street.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

JC_CT said:

Evidence that he had ANY vision loss?

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I don't have any. That is the point though. We don't know what happened. Even with the witness accounts, we don't really know. They are conflicting.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

JC_CT said:

No it's fine, keep playing the what if game to fit possible narratives that justify shooting an unarmed young black man to death in the middle of the street in broad daylight. Question any and all evidence that is indicating that he wasn't justified, and counter with the argument that there could be evidence that says the opposite.

Discount black people's testimony as unreliable, regardless of how many are saying the same thing. Use a guy in the background of a video that cannot with any certainty be concluded to directly contradict the existing eyewitnesses and in fact can barely even be heard, and call it "new evidence that changes everything."

Ignore the fact that Wilson's version does not include shots being fired while Brown is running away, despite all known eyewitness testimony saying that shots were fired at his back, the NY Times reporting that law enforcement officials have confirmed this, and now a verified audio recording of the gun shots which is consistent with the eyewitness accounts. Continue under the assumption that the rest of Wilson's version is the most likely truth. Continue to give him the benefit of the doubt, and continue to ignore the dead man lying in the street.

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All witness testimony is unreliable. It is a psychological fact. People remember things differently. It doesn't matter who they are, what color skin they have.

But even if it was an unjustifiable shooting, which I have not said is not possible or even not likely, it doesn't prove that he was shot for racial reasons. The police officer could simply be bad at judgment calls. That doesn't clear him of anything. But you need to prove racial reasons caused the shooting if that is what you are claiming and there is absolutely no evidence at all that he was shot and killed because he was black, whether the shooting itself was justified or not. That is the major issue I have a problem with.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

roguenuke said:

All witness testimony is unreliable. It is a psychological fact. People remember things differently. It doesn't matter who they are, what color skin they have.

But even if it was an unjustifiable shooting, which I have not said is not possible or even not likely, it doesn't prove that he was shot for racial reasons. The police officer could simply be bad at judgment calls. That doesn't clear him of anything. But you need to prove racial reasons caused the shooting if that is what you are claiming and there is absolutely no evidence at all that he was shot and killed because he was black, whether the shooting itself was justified or not. That is the major issue I have a problem with.

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The evidence for the racial CONTEXT is in the CONTEXT. I don't need to, nor am I trying, to prove it is solely a racially motivated killing. The department (which has reeked of it), the region, and the entire freaking country has a VERY long history of racism, and at no point did it just stop. So the fact that this guy was part of a statistical fact of racial bias in policing activity in Ferguson, and the fact that he shot at this man, who was unarmed, 10 or 11 times, and didn't make any attempt to provide him with medical attention such as CPR, indicates that there likely was some level of racial bias that played some role.

I do not doubt that race has played a much bigger role in the way that it is being reported in the media, than in the actual shooting. I also do not question the assertions that the militarization of our law enforcement is out of control.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

JC_CT said:

The evidence for the racial CONTEXT is in the CONTEXT. I don't need to, nor am I trying, to prove it is solely a racially motivated killing. The department (which has reeked of it), the region, and the entire freaking country has a VERY long history of racism, and at no point did it just stop. So the fact that this guy was part of a statistical fact of racial bias in policing activity in Ferguson, and the fact that he shot at this man, who was unarmed, 10 or 11 times, and didn't make any attempt to provide him with medical attention such as CPR, indicates that there likely was some level of racial bias that played some role.

I do not doubt that race has played a much bigger role in the way that it is being reported in the media, than in the actual shooting. I also do not question the assertions that the militarization of our law enforcement is out of control.

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And you are applying a wrong way of thinking. In fact, you are basically stereotyping. YOU are applying motivation to someone based on a group they belong to. Isn't that the entire point of being against racial profiling, not basin an opinion of someone on what others of that group do or have done?

If you know that you shot someone in the top of their head, there is a good chance they are dead. It is cruel to expect someone to perform CPR on a dead person.

You are making assumptions and showing your personal bias in this last line.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

roguenuke said:

And you are applying a wrong way of thinking. In fact, you are basically stereotyping. YOU are applying motivation to someone based on a group they belong to. Isn't that the entire point of being against racial profiling, not basin an opinion of someone on what others of that group do or have done?

If you know that you shot someone in the top of their head, there is a good chance they are dead. It is cruel to expect someone to perform CPR on a dead person.

You are making assumptions and showing your personal bias in this last line.

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Oh poor police officer. He shoots somebody in the head and then has to touch the potentially dead body. Ewww.

Even though people have survived gun shot wounds to the head, I'm sure he knew that Brown was dead. I'm sure he at least took a pulse...right?

^Biased!

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

JC_CT said:

Oh poor police officer. He shoots somebody in the head and then has to touch the potentially dead body. Ewww.

Even though people have survived gun shot wounds to the head, I'm sure he knew that Brown was dead. I'm sure he at least took a pulse...right?

^Biased!

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They have. But you can pretty much tell someone who might survive and someone who is dead, as the coroner already said the head shot was a fatal shot. He wasn't surviving that. Was it right to not still give help? Yet another question for the investigators and definitely a matter of opinion, considering the facts of how the guy ended up dead.

Pretty sure he doesn't have to administer CPR to Brown. I would hope that he did check for a pulse, but then he could have been traumatized. Despite popular belief, shooting and killing someone is not something a cop does cheerfully or without emotion, not most cops anyway.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

roguenuke said:

They have. But you can pretty much tell someone who might survive and someone who is dead, as the coroner already said the head shot was a fatal shot. He wasn't surviving that. Was it right to not still give help? Yet another question for the investigators and definitely a matter of opinion, considering the facts of how the guy ended up dead.

Pretty sure he doesn't have to administer CPR to Brown. I would hope that he did check for a pulse, but then he could have been traumatized. Despite popular belief, shooting and killing someone is not something a cop does cheerfully or without emotion, not most cops anyway.

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There is no evidence that he even took a pulse, all he did was pace back and forth. And I am only relatively certain that he did not have the autopsy results at the time.

For all the apologizing and excuse making that is going on for police officers, the guy who picks up your trash has a far more dangerous job. This is made especially true when police officers get to shoot at anything they think is threatening, and we make excuses for their blatent disregard for life.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

JC_CT said:

There is no evidence that he even took a pulse, all he did was pace back and forth. And I am only relatively certain that he did not have the autopsy results at the time.

For all the apologizing and excuse making that is going on for police officers, the guy who picks up your trash has a far more dangerous job. This is made especially true when police officers get to shoot at anything they think is threatening, and we make excuses for their blatent disregard for life.

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Perhaps he was pacing because he was thinking "****, I just killed someone", or something along those lines..

I would be, but then I have no desire to become a police officer so that's probably not a situation I'd end up in.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732

The Mark said:

Perhaps he was pacing because he was thinking "****, I just killed someone", or something along those lines..

I would be, but then I have no desire to become a police officer so that's probably not a situation I'd end up in.

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Police officers have a unique job. However, the danger is overplayed and the responsibility is underplayed.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

Moot said:

The parents anger is justified. What you would do is totally irrelevant to what someone else in their situation would do. Consider what the parents, especially the mother might have gone through to get that boy to finish HS and without a police record. He was due to start college this fall. Do you have any idea what that might mean to a black family? I doubt you do.

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NO the parents' anger is not justified when they direct it toward another who may very well be innocent of all wrongdoing. The parents aligned themselves with the race baiters like Al Sharpton early on and with the medias help ratcheted up the rhetoric to whip people into a lynch mob mentality. They painted their son as the "gentle giant" gunned down by a dirty white cop. When the video of their son roughing up the store clerk using his size to intimidate while stealing a box of cigars was released, the parents responded calling it "character assassination". huh? The witnesses making claims that Brown was shot in the back, gunned down like an animal, hands up etc. turned out to not be true either and two of the three witnesses have backed away from their original comments. The third witness was Brown's accomplice in the robbery who has a warrant out for his arrest for falsifying a police report and for stealing in another county.

How do you know Brown doesn't have a police record? He was just 18. Anything prior to his 18th birthday are juvenile records and they are sealed and have to go through the courts to be opened.

How do you know Brown was ready to start college this Fall? Usually colleges do not release information on student enrollment His school records showed that he transferred high schools and had to complete a special program to make up for missing credits to graduate. And your comments as if to say a black to graduate from college is some kind of rare occurrence is absolutely demeaning.

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

I have been loosely following this story.
While it is a tragedy that this young man is dead, it does not sound like this was a case of a bad cop.
People need to look at this from the perspective of what a real racial cop shooting looks like.
Man shot by police officer in his driveway in Bellaire | null
Robert Tolan's case is winding it's way through the courts, but this looks like a racial shooting.
Thrown to the ground in his Parents driveway, for the crime of a black man driving a nice car.
His mother came out and told the officer it was his car, and was thrown against the wall.
Tolan stood up to say something and was shot.