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Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

If Brown was laying on the ground, all the shots will have to be explained and they all entered the front of his body, which would have been impossible if he were lying down.
The witness accounts all agree that he was falling as he was being shot. The first three while still upright and the last two near or on the street.
It makes sense when you look at the trajectory of the last two wounds to his head.
The eye socket wound entered at his eye brow, re-entered and exited at his jaw and entered again just above his collarbone
He may not have been hit by all five in the last group . The pathologist explained early in the press conference that some of the other wounds may have been re-entry wounds as well.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

I am going off on a limb here. Turle Dove may be able to flesh this out better, and I might just be plain wrong:

Administratively, Wilson might have to prove that the shooting was justified. If he can't, then he can get fired etc. If the shooting was not justified, then it might also be a crime.

Technically, the burden of proof is on the proscecutor to prove that not only was the shooting not justified, but that Wilson is also guilty of a criminal act.

But.... many jurors may well presume that if Wilson cant show the shooting was justified administratively, then he is automatically guilty of a crime. They may even presume and apply that presumption despite judges instructions to the contrary.



there is a world of difference between an IA investigation, and a criminal prosecution

and Wilson never has to prove the shooting was anything.....

The internal affairs department will investigate and determine whether or not the shooting was "justified" in their eyes

He can be fired....put on desk duty....suspended with or without pay.....

There are a lot of things the IA dept can recommend....usually it is up to the chief and a board the ultimate action taken upon the officer
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

If the witnesses are saying Brown had his arms up and then he was shot, they can't be telling the truth.

The entry wounds would have been on the back of his arms and not the front.
They say he had his arms up when he turned around. He probably lowered his arms in a defensive posture as he realized that there were more shots to come.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

there is a world of difference between an IA investigation, and a criminal prosecution

Yes, I am aware of that. I have adminsitratrively defended officers accused of wrong doing - relatively minor things. They were not facing criminal charges, but they were under threat of being fired.
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and Wilson never has to prove the shooting was anything.....
No, you could well be wrong at the adminstrative level.

In my experience in law enforcement (granted, it was long time ago), I think the officer would be expected to justify the shooting at the administrative level. For lesser offenses that I handled, the burden was generally on IA to show the officer did something wrong.

And if Wilson is fired adminsitratively for the shooting, then this is going to impact a possible criminal trial- even if the proscecutor must show a crime was commited. In short, the jury may well think: If he was fired for it (admin), then he must also be guilty of a criminal charge.
 
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Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

but you are forgetting one important fact

Wilson doesnt have to prove innocence

the prosecution has to prove guilt

too many have jumped to conclusions on both sides of the equation

i still say we dont know a quarter of the "facts" in the case
On the other hand, the Grand Jury doesn't have to decide if Wilson is guilty or if the witnesses are lying.
They only have to find that there is reasonable doubt that this is a justified homicide to recommend an indictment.
 
Does having an " open mind " mean that I have to ignore the constraints of what is humanly possible ?

Or the constraints of the space time continuum ?

Because there was not enough time for him to stop, turn around, surrender and drop to his knees. You know this

How do you know that there was not enough time for Brown to stop and turn?
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

So basically you're a second-hand ear-witness .

OK, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.
 
I wonder if any of those "shots" heard on the recording is an echo?

I once covered a police shooting incident in Vancouver where a video tape recorded 39 shots. There were no hits.

An independent examiner found that there were 9 shell casings accounted for and eleven bullets from the assigned amount that were missing, two were later determined to have been expended in a test fire on the range.

I do not ay this is the case here, in fact I here several distinct shots.

In any event, what this will do is further the divide between the citizens and the police, further cast doubt on their integrity seriously harking their ability to serve and protect.

They so need an independent investigation, all that need happen is the State Attorney general name a good judge, preferably half white and be done with it.

To be honest with you I'm not sure if I hear five or four shots in the second grouping . Everyone else says they hear five...and there are a lot of echos that tend to confuse how many reports are actually fired in both groups.
Any decent forensic sound engineer should be able to tell with a high degree of certainty exactly how many shots were fired when that recording is accurately filtered, graphed and analyzed.
Even when there is a lot of audio compression in a recording ( as there often is in digital recording) the amplitude of the original report will still be slightly higher than the subsequent echos. The confusion comes when echos from previous shots coincide with subsequent reports and echos clouding their exact amplitude.
The quality of the recording is high with very little background noise so I am confident we will soon find out exactly how many shots were fired.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

I agree, in most cases, an officer should be presumed credible unless there reasons to believe otherwise. At the same time, the more "could haves / might haves" in the claim, even an officer's claim, the more need for additional physical evidence.

In this case, there seems to be string of "could haves":
-he could have initiated an attack on me (in car)
-non lethal force might not have stopped him
-he could have then initiated one or more to the death banzai charges
-he could be incredibly dangerous, even when wounded
-he could have closed the distance seperating us before I could use other options besides lethal force

I can give the officer 1 or more "could haves". But, it appears he is asking for 5. To me, this makes the officer's claim extraordinary- even given the fact that Brown is not a "Gentle Giant" and was probably pumped up after "slapping down" the clerk.

Who has the burden of proof? Must Wilson show that the shooting was jusified? If so, I think there are too many "could haves" for him to prove the shooting was justified by his word alone. Wilson must change some "could haves" into "probably dids" with physical evidence. I dont think he can do this.

Your last question may be the most important one. It is up to the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Officer Wilson used force that was not justified under the circumstances. Even when video evidence is available, such as in the Rodney King incident, juries are not inclined to convict officers if their evidence is reasonable under evaluation.
 
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How do you know that there was not enough time for Brown to stop and turn?
He doesn't.
A basketball player can stop and turn a 180 in about a tenth of a second. There is a lot more time than that in that pause.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

You're last question may be the most important one. It is up to the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Officer Wilson used force that was not justified under the circumstances. Even when video evidence is available, such as in the Rodney King incident, juries are not inclined to convict officers if their evidence is reasonable under evaluation.
All they need is a doubt that the homicide is justified to recommend an indictment.
Nothing need be proven to a Grand Jury.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

They say he had his arms up when he turned around. He probably lowered his arms in a defensive posture as he realized that there were more shots to come.

To believe your scenario, you have to believe that Wilson is one of the most vile and violent people on the planet - also pretty stupid, because he committed this assassination in the middle of the afternoon, on a clear sunny day, in a residential neighbourhood, with many apartments surrounding the area and the prospects of numerous witnesses being present.
 
He doesn't.
A basketball player can stop and turn a 180 in about a tenth of a second. There is a lot more time than that in that pause.

I listened to it again after I read his post. I don't know WTH he's talking about.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

Your last question may be the most important one. It is up to the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Officer Wilson used force that was not justified under the circumstances. Even when video evidence is available, such as in the Rodney King incident, juries are not inclined to convict officers if their evidence is reasonable under evaluation.

There could well be two different burdens of proof- and they may blur into each other. Or, as you alluded to in the Rodney King case, they may not.

Administrative Discipline handled by internal affairs: Wilson must prove shooting was justified.
Criminal trial: Proscecutor must prove a crime was committed.

But, if Wilson can't prove shooting was justified (lets say he gets fired prior to a criminal trial), then a jury may presume that because the shooting was not justified, then Wislon must have also committed a crime.

Sure, a judge may remind them that getting fired administratively does not mean a crime was committed. Subjectively though, a jury may well blur the two concepts into one. In short, it Wilson gets adminsitratively fired for an unjustified shooting, this is going to be bad news for him at a possible criminal trial.
 
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Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

There could well be two different burdens of proof- and they may blur into each other. Or, as you alluded to in the Rodney King case, they may not.

Administrative Discipline handled by internal affairs: Wilson must prove shooting was justified.
Criminal trial: Proscecutor must prove a crime was committed.

But, if Wilson can't prove shooting was justified (lets say he gets fired prior to a criminal trial), then a jury may presume that because the shooting was not justified, then Wislon must have also committed a crime.

Sure, a judge may remind them that getting fired administratively does not mean a crime was committed. Subjectively though, a jury may well blur the two concepts into one. In short, it Wilson gets adminsitratively fired for an unjustified shooting, this is going to be bad news for him at a possible criminal trial.

I don't agree with your conclusion, but I think the one thing you're missing is the most likely one to occur and that is the parent's civil lawsuit for wrongful death against the police department, the officer, and perhaps the city itself. I'd be willing to bet all I own that there are lawyers already in discussions with Michael Brown's family about the best time to file suit and what they can expect. I'll predict the outcome - the grand jury will indict, the trial will be a circus and the jury will acquit, and then a civil suit will be launched and the parties will settle out of court for a tidy sum, no quilt acknowledged, no details disclosed.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

To believe your scenario, you have to believe that Wilson is one of the most vile and violent people on the planet - also pretty stupid, because he committed this assassination in the middle of the afternoon, on a clear sunny day, in a residential neighbourhood, with many apartments surrounding the area and the prospects of numerous witnesses being present.
Angry rage and a good shot of adrenaline can make even a meek personality pretty vile and violent for a few seconds. Wilson had just been in the course of a minute or so been disobeyed and disrespected by a cocky teen, hit on the face, he had just discharged his weapon in his car and he had to chase a suspect on foot who was walking or running away from that encounter.
had he been thinking clearly without rage , the prudent thing to do would have been to holster his piece and draw his Taser as he left the cruiser. This was a busy street at high noon on a weekend and Brown was not going very far very fast.
Wilson's decisions were clouded and distorted by rage and vengeance.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

I see you are speaking nonsense again.

You boldly say you know the evidence and then post evidence of 11 shots. Now when someone points to that evidence that you posted you go off and call it nonsense. Interesting.
 
How do you know that there was not enough time for Brown to stop and turn?


I listened to the audio.

So in that brief half a second, he stopped, turned around, and then dropped to his knees and the raised his hands ?

No way
 
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He doesn't.
A basketball player can stop and turn a 180 in about a tenth of a second. There is a lot more time than that in that pause.


LOL !! Nonsense.

Now he's a " basketball player " ?
Was he playing basketball ?

When was the last time you timed a '' basketball player " turning around , dropping to his knees, raising his hands and giving up ???
 
Angry rage and a good shot of adrenaline can make even a meek personality pretty vile and violent for a few seconds. Wilson had just been in the course of a minute or so been disobeyed and disrespected by a cocky teen, hit on the face, he had just discharged his weapon in his car and he had to chase a suspect on foot who was walking or running away from that encounter.
had he been thinking clearly without rage , the prudent thing to do would have been to holster his piece and draw his Taser as he left the cruiser. This was a busy street at high noon on a weekend and Brown was not going very far very fast.
Wilson's decisions were clouded and distorted by rage and vengeance.

Nonsense.

His decisions were based on the fact that he was attacked , just had his gun nearly wrestled away from him and now had a 300 pound thug charging him.

He reacted appropriately.

Its starting to look more like suicide by cop.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

Lawrence O'Donnell is a seething idiot.

Just sayin. You should pick and chose your news outlets a little better.

You just don't like what's being said.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

in watching the MSNBC interview of the various eye witnesses, i hear some say that the deceased was holding his arms up in the manner of surrender (once turned around, facing the officer). however, the fellow who did not see anything until the deceased had turned to face the shooter indicated the deceased was holding his arm while bowed over - NOT in a form of surrender
other than that, there seemed to be significant consistency between their observations

Perhaps Brown turned and raised his hands. Then as the officer continued to fire he struck Brown in the body. At this time Brown would grab his stomach and then as he was falling to the ground, the fatal shot hit Brown in the top of the head.
 
I listened to the audio.

So in that brief half a second, he stopped, turned around, and then dropped to his knees and the raised his hands ?

No way

I got up and ran across the room until the shots stopped then pivoted on my front foot and walked back the direction I came from. I was able to walk several steps before the shots began again. Apparently, you're mistaken. It is possible.
 
Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

Perhaps Brown turned and raised his hands. Then as the officer continued to fire he struck Brown in the body. At this time Brown would grab his stomach and then as he was falling to the ground, the fatal shot hit Brown in the top of the head.

Autopsy results have been released.


He wasn't shot in the " stomach "
 
I listened to the audio.

So in that brief half a second, he stopped, turned around, and then dropped to his knees and the raised his hands ?

No way
I just listened to it again and the pause is easily a slow three count.
Plenty of time to turn and raise his hands simultaneously.
Witness accounts are that Brown went down during the gunfire not before it.
They say Wilson fired as Brown went down all the way to the ground.
There is no way this timing couldn't fit the actions.
 
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