Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat [W:613/629]

Re: hurdles debaters face when interacting with the general public

Simon W. Moon said:

There're many differences.
To start though, the US president wasn't subject to the particular Texas laws we're discussing.
In the US, states can have laws that only apply inside of those states.
The Texas laws we're discussing are those kinds of laws.

I hope that helps you get one of the main differences.

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Doesn't help me at all because I know that coercion is coercion regardless of the particular outcome desired. The exercise of an unqualified political power conferred on a politician through the constitution either of the country or the state is not a crime provided the outcome is not illegal. Putting political pressure on an elected official to resign is not an outcome that is illegal, period.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Texmex said:

Nice attempt at deflection. This isn't about what the Sheriff's office did or didn't do. It's about Perry and his abuse of power. I wonder if he will wear the same white uniform the other inmates do here in Texas. Maybe we could ship him off to Arpaio in Arizona, especially if he likes bologna.

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I'm not attempting to deflect, just pointing out that at the jail, Rosemary Lehmberg did abuse her power, and it's all right there on tape. The Sheriff's Office could've made a deal out of this but didn't, and that was lucky for Lehmberg.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

nota bene said:

I'm not attempting to deflect, just pointing out that at the jail, Rosemary Lehmberg did abuse her power, and it's all right there on tape. The Sheriff's Office could've made a deal out of this but didn't, and that was lucky for Lehmberg.

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I understand. This has nothing to do with Perry's decision to attempt to force her to resign, however.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

I disagree. I think this is why he wanted her to resign.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

nota bene said:

I disagree. I think this is why he wanted her to resign.

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It's not Perry's job to force her to resign. The only reason he wanted her to resign is so he could appoint a republican in her place.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Texmex said:

It's not Perry's job to force her to resign. The only reason he wanted her to resign is so he could appoint a republican in her place.

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Do you have any evidence of this, such as the name of that Republican?

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

CanadaJohn said:

You're so blinded by your own ideology. "An intelligent jury will take care of the guilt part" - what's that, guilty until proven innocent and if he's proven innocent it must be that the jury was stupid? I'm not "the Perry crowd" - I think Perry is basically an idiot, but that doesn't mean that I approve of abusing the judicial system in order to rid government of idiots. Hell, it that was the only criteria, you could clean out most political offices.

You're simply obsessed with taking down a prominent Republican Governor - you fairly salivate at the possibility. You're not wasting time on logic because to do so would divert you from the agenda. It's fine to have that agenda, but don't spout nonsense about holding the higher ground when you transparently don't.

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That your argument has devolved to a series of partisan ad hominems and strawmen is not surprising.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Grant said:

Do you have any evidence of this, such as the name of that Republican?

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Would you care to give the odds on him appointing a Democrat? :lamo

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

nota bene said:

I'm not attempting to deflect, just pointing out that at the jail, Rosemary Lehmberg did abuse her power, and it's all right there on tape. The Sheriff's Office could've made a deal out of this but didn't, and that was lucky for Lehmberg.

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So, since in your estimation Lehmberg got away with abusing her power then Perry should get away with abusing his?

Interesting. I have heard of the concept that "two wrongs make a right" but I always thought it was a sarcastic postulate.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Texmex said:

It's not Perry's job to force her to resign. The only reason he wanted her to resign is so he could appoint a republican in her place.

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Yeah! (Nothing to do with her being a drunkin, abusive slob.)

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Karl said:

Would you care to give the odds on him appointing a Democrat? :lamo

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About the same as the odds of Obama nominating a SCOTUS justice who would follow the Constitution.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

newpublius said:

That's a great 'equitable' argument. It's not a constitutional argument. Fact is the veto power isn't qualified, the reason is simple, it's because somebody somewhere will obviously think it's a misuse of the person's veto power. Perry possesses an unqualified and unconditional power to veto any TX legislation, for any reason. That reason is subject to our review POLITICALLY, but criminally? Uh, no.....and again, my point about goi to court to get a writ is really quite pertinent......

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Vicariously Vicious

You get a feeling of absolute power yourself if you support this unlimited veto power. Those who claim to be anti-statist always give themselves away. They want a totalitarian private sector and a government that protects it through absolute contempt for the will of the majority.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Anthony60 said:

Yeah! (Nothing to do with her being a drunkin, abusive slob.)

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Are you dense? Whether or not she was drunk or not doesn't change the fact that it is none of Perry's business.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

danarhea said:

If convicted, Perry has nobody to blame but himself, because if he hadn't run his mouth and made the threats, he would be in no trouble at all.

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Cliches to the Clink and Throw Away the Key, Just Like with RICO Rick

Wait a minute. I question all trite statements. Perry did need to run his mouth off in public if he wanted to coerce Lehmberg into resigning. He wanted her gone for partisan reasons, using her private life as an excuse. He couldn't threaten her by a phone call because (1) she might tape it and (2) there wouldn't be pressure from the rest of the department to get her to resign in order to save their jobs.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

I see that Perry is still spouting off in the media, while under indictment. Amazing -- not that he would be expected to understand that all these statements can be used against him in court, but that his handlers are letting him dig the hole deeper. Is the entire Perry camp, including the lawyers, that clueless?

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Karl said:

I see that Perry is still spouting off in the media, while under indictment. Amazing -- not that he would be expected to understand that all these statements can be used against him in court, but that his handlers are letting him dig the hole deeper. Is the entire Perry camp, including the lawyers, that clueless?

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Given their experience, maybe they are very well informed, and you aren't?

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

ocean515 said:

Given their experience, maybe they are very well informed, and you aren't?

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It would seem highly unlikely -- have you ever heard of a lawyer that let their indicted client freely talk in public and to the media about their case?

And wouldn't the reason for the client keeping their mouth shut be obvious?

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Karl said:

It would seem highly unlikely -- have you ever heard of a lawyer that let their indicted client freely talk in public and to the media about their case?

And wouldn't the reason for the client keeping their mouth shut be obvious?

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Well, I would suppose the level of freedom an attorney would suggest a client exercise was in direct proportion to the confidence they had related to the charges.

Re: Are all veto threats categorically legal?

Simon W. Moon said:

Are all veto threats categorically legal?
Iow, is there any possible way that a veto threat could be illegal?

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I think that's what a lot of people are overlooking.

I see some quoting so called 'experts'. Here's one with a slightly different view that some refuse to look at.


Sandra Guerra Thompson, director of the Criminal Justice Institute at the University of Houston Law Center, said having a governor face such charges is unusual, especially over a veto.

"He has veto power, and that generally gives him a right to deny some kind of legislative action without necessarily having to have any justification of it," she said. "Where you run into problems is where there seems to be some kind of quid pro quo - you do this, or I'll do that. And I think that's where this case is coming from."

The two judges that were handed the case are both Republicans (one appointed by Perry) and the prosecutor seems to be favored by the Texas Republican hierarchy, so I dismiss the partisan argument.

I've read that Mike McCrum had over 40 witnesses testify before the GJ, including Perry aides and insiders. Of course all that is sealed and we don't know what was said, but the fact is that many testified from both sides and the GJ still handed down an indictment.

So, we shall see....:shrug:

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Objective Voice said:

Yes, she did, but was it conducted in the performance of her duties?

You see, an elected official can be charged with misconduct and such could apply to her performance on and off duty. But that's not the charge levied against her. Her's is public intoxication. As such, was she drinking on or off the clock?

It may sound like semantics, but it really isn't. Regardless, I agree that she should have resigned. However, I disagree that she should be forced to do so by the TX Governor.

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nota bene said:

Texas Code does provide for the removal from office of a public official for intoxication on or off-duty:

Sec. 87.013. GENERAL GROUNDS FOR REMOVAL. (a) An officer may be removed for
1) incompetency;
(2) official misconduct; or
(3) intoxication on or off duty caused by drinking an alcoholic beverage.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE CHAPTER 87. REMOVAL OF COUNTY OFFICERS FROM OFFICE; FILLING OF VACANCIES

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You've taken the discussion in a direction I hadn't intended; however, in doing so you've further illustrated why Gov. Perry's actions are wrong.

In the Local Government Code you linked to (subparagraph 3 above), Section 87.012 provides the remedy for removing DA Lemhberg from her duly elected position. Furthermore, since she was convicted for public intoxication, the District Court that governs the county where she holds office should have made a recommendation for her removal from office or suspension at the time it rendered its verdict on her public intoxication charge. Considering that Lemhberg continued in her official capacity as DA, it stands to reason neither were done. Nonetheless, it is clear that any effort to have her removed from office - in this case a forced resignation - is either the responsibility of her immediate supervisor - the County Commission(er), the District Court or her own accord. So, again, let me be clear here: I am not saying that Gov. Perry does not have the authority to veto any bill he disagrees with. That isn't want many of us are arguing here. As Chief Executive of the State of Texas, he has that right to do so. What I'm arguing is:

He can't publically threaten a duly elected official who is NOT under his direct supervision (i.e., an appointed member of his governing staff -vs- local/county official) to resign their post and then use his position of power as the Chief Executive to pressure said office to resign, i.e., issuing a veto to legislation that would withhold or reduce funding for the office the official oversees and then following through with said veto with the full knowledge that in so doing his actions would marginalize the official and/or impact the overall effectiveness of the office said official oversees.

That's the basis of what myself and others are arguing. So, again, anyone who can't see the wrong in what Gov. Perry has done simply just does not want to see it.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Texmex said:

Are you dense? Whether or not she was drunk or not doesn't change the fact that it is none of Perry's business.

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I get it, we are pretenting in this thread, nothing is real. Anyone that looks at this and can't realize what is going on here is seriously lacking brain cells.

If you think that they would have gone after Perry if he wasn't a potential Presidential candidate and a threat to Hillary (or whoever), you are just lying to yourself. Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Conservative said:

Lived here 22 years, been in court many times as a witness and the DA did not lose her job, TX Governor has the right to veto a bill, where was the abuse of power? The courts are going to decide and some leftwingers aren't going to like the decision, IMO

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Once again, you are missing the point. The issue is not about the Governor's right to veto funds. He has every right to do that. However, he commits a felony when he uses that power to threaten a State of Texas employee. He wasn't indicted for using his veto. He was indicted for using his office to make threats.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Excon said:

What did you not understand about the following replies?

You are in denial of the arguments you just engaged in?
Holy ****.


The above crap has already been refuted by others.
All you do is deny because you lack understanding. Just like you didn't understand that James Ferguson wasn't indicted for the same thing or under the same law.
You just don't understand. Nor could you, as your bias doesn't allow you to see reality in this instance.
​

I am not going to rehash that of which you have already been shown wrong.
There is no need because you are in denial and do not know of what you speak.
Pointing out what others have already pointed out just will lead to more denials from you.
You refuse to learn from them, and I know will will refuse to learn from me.


You simply have no clue, just like you had no clue about what you claimed about James Ferguson.

So when the Governor walks on this crap, what are you going to say?

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Once again, and true to form, you have still not answered my question. Where is the hole in this?


1) The law says that, if you intend to harm another by misusing government property that has come into the possession of the government employee by virtue of his or her employment, then you have committed a crime.

2) The property in question consists of the funds for the Public Integrity Unit.

3) The employee in question is Assistant DA Rosemary Lehmburg.

4) Had Perry not made any threat, and just cancelled the funds, he could have given any reason he wanted, within reason... For example "The Public Integrity Unit is a waste of taxpayer money, and so I am vetoing the funds".

5) However, Perry issued a threat against Lehmburg and her office. This was AFTER a grand jury already decided that she could keep her job.

6) In making the threat, Perry showed that his action, if taken, would be to act against a public employee by using property of the state of Texas as a weapon.

7) When Perry then carried out this threat, under the laws of the State of Texas, Perry had harmed Lehmberg by misusing government property (the funds).

8) Perry has been indicted for that.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

Objective Voice said:

You've taken the discussion in a direction I hadn't intended; however, in doing so you've further illustrated why Gov. Perry's actions are wrong.

In the Local Government Code you linked to (subparagraph 3 above), Section 87.012 provides the remedy for removing DA Lemhberg from her duly elected position. Furthermore, since she was convicted for public intoxication, the District Court that governs the county where she holds office should have made a recommendation for her removal from office or suspension at the time it rendered its verdict on her public intoxication charge. Considering that Lemhberg continued in her official capacity as DA, it stands to reason neither were done. Nonetheless, it is clear that any effort to have her removed from office - in this case a forced resignation - is either the responsibility of her immediate supervisor - the County Commission(er), the District Court or her own accord. So, again, let me be clear here: I am not saying that Gov. Perry does not have the authority to veto any bill he disagrees with. That isn't want many of us are arguing here. As Chief Executive of the State of Texas, he has that right to do so. What I'm arguing is:

He can't publically threaten a duly elected official who is NOT under his direct supervision (i.e., an appointed member of his governing staff -vs- local/county official) to resign their post and then use his position of power as the Chief Executive to pressure said office to resign, i.e., issuing a veto to legislation that would withhold or reduce funding for the office the official oversees and then following through with said veto with the full knowledge that in so doing his actions would marginalize the official and/or impact the overall effectiveness of the office said official oversees.

That's the basis of what myself and others are arguing. So, again, anyone who can't see the wrong in what Gov. Perry has done simply just does not want to see it.

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Exactly. Lemburgh may be a lush, but she is not under Perry's direct control. Local authorities already dealt with her by convening a grand jury, which said that she could keep her job. Perry attempted to circumvent that decision by issuing threats which, when carried out, constituted a felony.

Re: Gov. Rick Perry indicted for abuse of power for carrying out threat to veto prose

So I've come in late because I finally saw the whole story behind this thing. That politician was dead wrong in her behavior: I hope she got or gets fired over it. But Perry as dead wrong to put the veto of some of the budget in the form of a threat: that alone tells you something about him.

A grand jury has decided that there's enough evidence for a trail, and I hope that Perry gets stuck.