Navy reverses Bible ban

roguenuke said:

No one is denying others access to the Bible. They are free to bring their own Bible with them, just as I bring many different books with me when I go on any vacation. They are even free to visit the base library or book area, where there are bound to be Bibles and other religious books available to them if they want them, presented in a manner that does not appear to endorse one religious over another. It has nothing to do with the cost.

And I believe in a higher power, just not one described by any religion I know of.

I am in the Navy reserves and allowed to stay there, so I'm actually one of those people on this board who it could possibly affect (if I really was offended by having a Bible in the room).

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how can you be offended by something you don't believe in? this is illogical.

any other religion is free to to their documentation in they they choose not to do it. them choosing not to do it doesn't mean someone else is endorsing anything.
you have to make a large logical leap to get there.

spud_meister said:

What if a group started donating Communist Manifesto's to the Navy. Would anyone object if they were placed in rooms?

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no one has so what difference does it make

spud_meister said:

What if a group started donating Communist Manifesto's to the Navy. Would anyone object if they were placed in rooms?

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I think that is the potential problem. It isn't about the bible but you are opening the floodgate for every crackpot religion wanting their propaganda in the rooms.

A better idea is for them to focus on just offering clean beds without bedbugs and a clean restroom. That is really all travelers want.

Crosscheck said:

I think that is the potential problem. It isn't about the bible but you are opening the floodgate for every crackpot religion wanting their propaganda in the rooms.

A better idea is for them to focus on just offering clean beds without bedbugs and a clean restroom. That is really all travelers want.

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the communist manifesto is not a religion therefore the lodging could reject it with no problem or any other questionable propaganda.

ludin said:

the communist manifesto is not a religion therefore the lodging could reject it with no problem or any other questionable propaganda.

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It doesn't take much to get something classified as a religion.

True , there isn't any other group besides Gideons placing their materials in hotels at this present time but I think one has to think ahead.

ludin said:

i then have to ask how something in a drawer that you won't read actually hurts you? it doesn't.

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That is your opinion, I do not need nor want it in a room in which I am staying.

ludin said:

how can you be offended by something you don't believe in? this is illogical.

any other religion is free to to their documentation in they they choose not to do it. them choosing not to do it doesn't mean someone else is endorsing anything.
you have to make a large logical leap to get there.

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I believe that Bibles exist. Are you of the failed notion that I believe Bibles are a figment of people's imagination? Personally, I'm not offended by having a Bible in the room, but I can see how others, especially those who have a different actual religion, can be offended because they may see it as providing religious texts for a religion but not for their particular religion, which is unfair, no matter who actually paid for those books. "God" or rather the "Christian God" is not the offensive thing here. The apparent endorsement of the Christian religious beliefs by the Navy Lodge, a government run entity, over any other religions is the offensive thing here.

Just because someone doesn't have the resources to give out religious books to every single Navy Lodge doesn't mean that their concerns about presentation of another religion should be dismissed. That is ludicrous. As I said in a different post, if it were a political book, and only a specific political book giving only one single political viewpoint, put in every single room in the Navy Lodges, it would be seen as the Navy endorsing that particular view.

What about this book? Would this be acceptable in every single room in a Navy Lodge?

From Abortion to Reproductive Freedom: Transforming a Movement by Marlene Gerber Fried Or this one? Make Me Your Choice by Cheryl Chew

How about one of these?

Gay Marriage: Why It Is Good for Gays, Good for Straights, and Good for America, by Jonathan Rauch or Marriage on Trial: The Case Against Same-Sex Marriage and Parenting by Glenn T. Stanton

If it would be wrong to put any single one of these books into every single room in the Navy Lodge, then it should also be wrong to put any single religious book/text into every single room in the Navy Lodge because it is easily seen as an endorsement of that viewpoint or religion, even if that is not the intent.

ludin said:

the communist manifesto is not a religion therefore the lodging could reject it with no problem or any other questionable propaganda.

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They can easily reject Bibles and other religious texts from other religions as well because there is no reason to even appear to be promoting any single viewpoint or religion, even in just appearance.

Crosscheck said:

It doesn't take much to get something classified as a religion.

True , there isn't any other group besides Gideons placing their materials in hotels at this present time but I think one has to think ahead.

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actually it does. communism is a politcal view point it isn't a religion

roguenuke said:

They can easily reject Bibles and other religious texts from other religions as well because there is no reason to even appear to be promoting any single viewpoint or religion, even in just appearance.

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again why are you so up in arms about something you don't believe in? is anyone forcing you to read it before you stay there?
is that a requirement?

so you have to pray before you can get the room?

the answer to all of these is no.

Peter King said:

The navy however should not pay for bibles or automatically provide them for everyone serving in the navy.

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With the possible exception of chaplains that is not the case. This thread is about bibles that are provided for free to the Navy Lodges. Since the Korans and Torahs and other holy texts are part of the chapalin's jobs, that is a reasonable expense. You are correct that providing any of these books to the servicemembers at large would not be proper use of military money.

roguenuke said:

I believe that Bibles exist. Are you of the failed notion that I believe Bibles are a figment of people's imagination? Personally, I'm not offended by having a Bible in the room, but I can see how others, especially those who have a different actual religion, can be offended because they may see it as providing religious texts for a religion but not for their particular religion, which is unfair, no matter who actually paid for those books. "God" or rather the "Christian God" is not the offensive thing here. The apparent endorsement of the Christian religious beliefs by the Navy Lodge, a government run entity, over any other religions is the offensive thing here.

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the navy isn't providing the bibles nor are they paying for them. they are donated free of charge.
nothing is stopping them from bringings their own religious documentation.

the fact that no other organization does this for other religions is not the navy issue.

Just because someone doesn't have the resources to give out religious books to every single Navy Lodge doesn't mean that their concerns about presentation of another religion should be dismissed. That is ludicrous. As I said in a different post, if it were a political book, and only a specific political book giving only one single political viewpoint, put in every single room in the Navy Lodges, it would be seen as the Navy endorsing that particular view.

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if they want their views to be there then they can pay for it just like the gideons do. nope because the navy can reject political material. if the navy didn't buy it and isn't pushing it on people then the navy is not endorsing it.

What about this book? Would this be acceptable in every single room in a Navy Lodge?



From Abortion to Reproductive Freedom: Transforming a Movement by Marlene Gerber Fried Or this one? Make Me Your Choice by Cheryl Chew

How about one of these?

Gay Marriage: Why It Is Good for Gays, Good for Straights, and Good for America, by Jonathan Rauch or Marriage on Trial: The Case Against Same-Sex Marriage and Parenting by Glenn T. Stanton

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Those book is not religious material it would be up to the navy if they allowed it or not and there is nothing anyone could do if they rejected it.

If it would be wrong to put any single one of these books into every single room in the Navy Lodge, then it should also be wrong to put any single religious book/text into every single room in the Navy Lodge because it is easily seen as an endorsement of that viewpoint or religion, even if that is not the intent.

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nope because those books are not religious in nature therefore they are not protected. they are simply opinion pieces in which the navy doesn't have to provide or even allow to be distributed.

they could be rejected for any number of reasons.

Peter King said:

There is nothing silly about only giving a bible to people who specifically ask for one. That would be the easiest way to prevent people taking offense at promotional bibles in rooms.

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There is nothing 'promotional' about a Gideon Bible in a Hotel room. It is a ministry the Gideons have been doing for more than a 100 years. And anybody who would be offended by seeing a Gideon Bible in their hotel room deserves to be offended. It would be much more promoting the Bibles or give that appearance if the desk clerk had to inform each guest that a Bible would be made available to him/her if asked for.

roguenuke said:

Why would they have to inform them? Simply have it available as a reading option. And put that as an amenity "books available to read". Is that really so hard? Or simply give it to the library or wherever any particular base may keep a book collection (most have one somewhere) and tell guests they can find a Bible there. But by having a single type of book available in every single room, that is promoting that book. No one would be arguing differently if this was something like Hard Choices by Hillary Clinton or Fed Up! by Rick Perry, having only one of those books in every single room in a Navy sponsored hotel. It wouldn't be allowed. Why? Because it would appear that the Navy was supporting only one of those particular political figures. It doesn't matter if someone else paid for those books, donated those books to the Navy Lodge.

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Doing a kindness to people is not promoting anything so we'll just have to disagree on that.

apdst said:

Because the Giddeons donate those Bibles.

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Indeed. Are Bibles normally in Navy quarters because the Navy buys them, or are they donated by a third party?

Probably would have been better to make as bedside issue, "How to Win Friends and Influence People."

Capster78 said:

Why stop at the Koran and the Bible.. Hell.. place the Analects of Confucius, Ginza Rba, Holy Books of Thelema, Tipitaka, Dhammapada, Akilattirattu Ammanai, Arul Nool, Zend-Avesta, Hebrew Bible, Talmud, Gospel of Thomas, Guru Granth Sahib, Homeric Hymns, Theogony, Golden Verses of Pythagoras, Orphic Poems, Holy Piby, Kebra Negast, Royal Parchment Scroll of Black Supremacy, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, The Barton Cylinder.....

I could go on and on......

Then perhaps we can bankrupt our military by providing 2,000 holy books into every service members room..... Or... Just maybe, we can be sensible and let service men and women purchase and practice religion on their own.

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A nice reductio ad absurdum argument, but few other religions would see any value in just dropping their religious texts off in lodge rooms.

Merely making a religious text available does little or nothing toward enlightening anyone. I respect the motivation, but putting Bibles in Navy lodges and hotel rooms is probably not a good use of resources.

ludin said:

the navy isn't providing the bibles nor are they paying for them. they are donated free of charge.
nothing is stopping them from bringings their own religious documentation.

the fact that no other organization does this for other religions is not the navy issue.



if they want their views to be there then they can pay for it just like the gideons do. nope because the navy can reject political material. if the navy didn't buy it and isn't pushing it on people then the navy is not endorsing it.



Those book is not religious material it would be up to the navy if they allowed it or not and there is nothing anyone could do if they rejected it.



nope because those books are not religious in nature therefore they are not protected. they are simply opinion pieces in which the navy doesn't have to provide or even allow to be distributed.

they could be rejected for any number of reasons.

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The bible and other religious books have no more protection in this case than any other book. The bible is just as much an opinion piece as all those books mentioned. Plus, nothing can be said about those books mentioned that make them automatically more offensive than the bible depending on the person. In reality it is up to the navy if any books are allowed up until someone makes an issue of it, then it is up to the court.

AlbqOwl said:

Doing a kindness to people is not promoting anything so we'll just have to disagree on that.

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Yes it can be. Not everyone sees giving out bibles or other religious info/texts as "doing a kindness".

AlbqOwl said:

There is nothing 'promotional' about a Gideon Bible in a Hotel room. It is a ministry the Gideons have been doing for more than a 100 years. And anybody who would be offended by seeing a Gideon Bible in their hotel room deserves to be offended. It would be much more promoting the Bibles or give that appearance if the desk clerk had to inform each guest that a Bible would be made available to him/her if asked for.

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No one said the clerks would have to inform each and every person that they were available. Just have them available and tell the guests certain book selections are available upon request.

roguenuke said:

The bible and other religious books have no more protection in this case than any other book. The bible is just as much an opinion piece as all those books mentioned. Plus, nothing can be said about those books mentioned that make them automatically more offensive than the bible depending on the person. In reality it is up to the navy if any books are allowed up until someone makes an issue of it, then it is up to the court.

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the bible is a religious book not an opinion so yes it is protected.

roguenuke said:

No one said the clerks would have to inform each and every person that they were available. Just have them available and tell the guests certain book selections are available upon request.

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And if the Bible is the only book selection available upon request which would be the case in 99% of all cases? How utterly absurd when it gives the Gideons great pleasure to offer the Bibles free and it harms absolutely nobody to have them in the rooms and at least some people do benefit from or enjoy having them there? My goodness aren't there more serious issues in the world for folks to worry about? Why not live and let live and allow the simplest solution when it has absolutely no affect on you and no detrimental effect on anybody?

AlbqOwl said:

And if the Bible is the only book selection available upon request which would be the case in 99% of all cases? How utterly absurd when it gives the Gideons great pleasure to offer the Bibles free and it harms absolutely nobody to have them in the rooms and at least some people do benefit from or enjoy having them there? My goodness aren't there more serious issues in the world for folks to worry about? Why not live and let live and allow the simplest solution when it has absolutely no affect on you and no detrimental effect on anybody?

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Why do you think the bible would be the only thing available? Bases have libraries and book centers often and people leave books in hotel rooms all the time. They could even do a book exchange or donation. There's no reason to believe they would only have bibles. Otherwise they could simply give them to the library or book center on base and direct interested guests there.

ludin said:

the bible is a religious book not an opinion so yes it is protected.

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Religious books are opinions as much as those other books are. And no they are not protected in any way in this particular issue. Why in the world would you think they were?

roguenuke said:

Religious books are opinions as much as those other books are. And no they are not protected in any way in this particular issue. Why in the world would you think they were?

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He's resisting the loss of privilege for his chosen opinion.

I hear at least one hotel chain has removed them from their rooms. Travelodge, I think.