• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Navy reverses Bible ban

roguenuke said:
Why do you think the bible would be the only thing available? Bases have libraries and book centers often and people leave books in hotel rooms all the time. They could even do a book exchange or donation. There's no reason to believe they would only have bibles. Otherwise they could simply give them to the library or book center on base and direct interested guests there.
Click to expand...

Let's just say that some seem to have an irrational fear or prejudice against Bibles and would use that to justify denying generous people from giving gifts or denying people a small comfort or pleasure and let it go at that, okay?
 
LowDown said:
Indeed. Are Bibles normally in Navy quarters because the Navy buys them, or are they donated by a third party?
Click to expand...
My understanding is that they're not in navy quarters at all, but rather in hotel-like rooms for visitors, which are only used as quarters in a pinch.

I would assume that the navy does not provide bibles to it's quarters, unless they provide books from other religions, which would be hard and expensive (also take up space).
 
AlbqOwl said:
There is nothing 'promotional' about a Gideon Bible in a Hotel room. It is a ministry the Gideons have been doing for more than a 100 years. And anybody who would be offended by seeing a Gideon Bible in their hotel room deserves to be offended. It would be much more promoting the Bibles or give that appearance if the desk clerk had to inform each guest that a Bible would be made available to him/her if asked for.
Click to expand...

I am an atheist, but Muslims could also be irked by finding an unwanted bible in their room.

I am only saying, in a hotel room that I sleep in the bible goes out of that room. I do not want one in the drawer of my nightstand. It is where I want to put things that are important for me in my hotel room and I do not need or want a bible in there. That is all I am saying.
 
ludin said:
again why are you so up in arms about something you don't believe in? is anyone forcing you to read it before you stay there?
is that a requirement?

so you have to pray before you can get the room?

the answer to all of these is no.
Click to expand...

This isn't "up in arms" about something I don't believe in. I believe that the government should not appear to endorse a religion. Do I really care? No. But I can see where some people who might care are coming from so I believe the Navy is wrong here. There is nothing wrong or illegal about not having Bibles in the rooms of Navy Lodges, particularly if they explain the situation to the Gideons and offer to return their Bibles. Most likely the Gideons wouldn't have an issue with them simply being available upon request.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Let's just say that some seem to have an irrational fear or prejudice against Bibles and would use that to justify denying generous people from giving gifts or denying people a small comfort or pleasure and let it go at that, okay?
Click to expand...

It is not an "irrational fear". It is simply not wishing to have a particular religion pushed on them at a government facility, which a Navy Lodge technically is. Sure, it is only just in the drawer but that is still the appearance of supporting that religion over others because there is nothing to say differently and there is no secular reason to have those Bibles there.
 
Peter King said:
I am an atheist, but Muslims could also be irked by finding an unwanted bible in their room.

I am only saying, in a hotel room that I sleep in the bible goes out of that room. I do not want one in the drawer of my nightstand. It is where I want to put things that are important for me in my hotel room and I do not need or want a bible in there. That is all I am saying.
Click to expand...

I really feel bad for you that you have so much problem with a book being present in a hotel room.
 
roguenuke said:
It is not an "irrational fear". It is simply not wishing to have a particular religion pushed on them at a government facility, which a Navy Lodge technically is. Sure, it is only just in the drawer but that is still the appearance of supporting that religion over others because there is nothing to say differently and there is no secular reason to have those Bibles there.
Click to expand...

I am quite sure the hotel would have no problem with you returning the book to the front desk so there is no chance that it might offend you. Otherwise I think there is no purpose in repeating again why the presence of a donated Bible in a hotel/lodge room is not promoting anything.
 
Deuce said:
Yeah, I know that's what happens.

I just wonder why that became a thing. Why hotel rooms? I mean, wouldn't a person who feels the need to regularly crack open a bible while on the road...have one already? There's a crapload of hotel rooms in this country! That's a lot of bibles!
Click to expand...

They are donated. Get over it. Nobody is forced to read them.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I am quite sure the hotel would have no problem with you returning the book to the front desk so there is no chance that it might offend you. Otherwise I think there is no purpose in repeating again why the presence of a donated Bible in a hotel/lodge room is not promoting anything.
Click to expand...

Just because you don't see it as promoting religion, specifically Christianity, doesn't mean that it isn't/doesn't. Other people do not see things the same way, particularly if they aren't Christian.

It would be better to simply have those who want the Bibles ask for them rather than have them in the rooms, assuming most people would want them. Saves any questions as to whether it could appear to be promoting Christianity.
 
roguenuke said:
I don't really have an issue with it but I also see the other side too. I honestly don't think it is worth it for either side to decry. Now, I would say though that they have to accept and put out any religious based material though that is given or none at all. This would have to include Wiccan, FSM, or even Satanism as well.
Click to expand...

Not if they want my business.
 
Goshin said:
Around 70-80% of our military personnel profess Christianity.

I don't have the figures in front of me, but I'd guess less than 1% profess Islam.


Yes, it does make a difference.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't make a difference. When you wear the uniform you are defending the rights of all
Americans. If you can't do that the you have no business wearing a uniform. However the armed forced does have religious services for the people serving, but the military welcomes all who is willing to take the oath to defend the Constitution. When religion becomes a prerequisite then problems arise, just look at the issues the USAF has had.
 
ObamacareFail said:
Not if they want my business.
Click to expand...

Either they do all or none. They cannot do both. If anyone else asked them to put any books or even just pamphlets/papers in their rooms (provided by some private party), so long as they cannot be deemed as "offensive" (something that basically couldn't be sold openly in the NEX), they would have to do it as long as they put the Bibles there. Otherwise they are opening themselves up to a lawsuit that they have little chance of winning.
 
Redress said:
Everything you say here is accurate, but still manages to miss where this is problematic. At issue is that with a bible in these rooms, it can appear as the government endorsing a particular religion. That would be a nono. Since from my reading the eventual outcome is not known, replacing the bibles, which may have to be removed again later, seems kinda silly. Probably should have waited for a final determination before deciding to do this.
Click to expand...

That's because you do not understand the first amendment to the US constitution. Banning the bible even in government rooms is a violation of that amendment.
 
roguenuke said:
So? It shouldn't matter if they are or are not there. As with any religion or really anything that you wish to read, you should bring your own. Just because people are used to something doesn't mean they have a right to it.
Click to expand...

If any hotel chain had a practice of banning the Gideon bibles in their rooms, such as Travelodge in the UK currently does, I would personally boycott that chain.
 
roguenuke said:
It doesn't matter if the government is providing them or not, the government still appears to be endorsing that religion, whether intentionally or not. When it comes to the military especially, appearance does matter.
Click to expand...

Who cares about appearance? The reality is that the bibles are donated. You cannot discriminate merely based on perception.
 
roguenuke said:
Just because you don't see it as promoting religion, specifically Christianity, doesn't mean that it isn't/doesn't. Other people do not see things the same way, particularly if they aren't Christian.

It would be better to simply have those who want the Bibles ask for them rather than have them in the rooms, assuming most people would want them. Saves any questions as to whether it could appear to be promoting Christianity.
Click to expand...

You know, how about you direct your comments to others for awhile? I have made my case for why having the Bibles in the rooms is not a violation of the First Amendment and does not promote anything other than a liberty. You have yet to offer any argument of any kind to rebut that but just keep reciting the same tired phrase over and over saying the same thing while offering no other rationale for it other than YOU see it as promoting religion. I am 100% in favor of your requesting a room without a Gideon Bible in it if it is that important to you. How about you let other folks enjoy the convenience of having the Bible there should they choose to take advantage of that? And then we can both be happy.
 
Capster78 said:
The big deal is the separation of church and state. The government can't be seen as a device to push a particular religion.
Click to expand...

Your problem is that there is no phrase: "separation of church and state" in the US constitution. You apparently do not understand that the 1st amendment merely guarantees that the US government cannot declare an official state religion. We cannot become a clerical state. It does not call for banning religion in government buildings, government events, etc.
 
roguenuke said:
Either they do all or none. They cannot do both. If anyone else asked them to put any books or even just pamphlets/papers in their rooms (provided by some private party), so long as they cannot be deemed as "offensive" (something that basically couldn't be sold openly in the NEX), they would have to do it as long as they put the Bibles there. Otherwise they are opening themselves up to a lawsuit that they have little chance of winning.
Click to expand...


If you people on the left had your way there would be no mention of God at all. That is what is so sad.
 
AlbqOwl said:
There is nothing 'promotional' about a Gideon Bible in a Hotel room. It is a ministry the Gideons have been doing for more than a 100 years. And anybody who would be offended by seeing a Gideon Bible in their hotel room deserves to be offended. It would be much more promoting the Bibles or give that appearance if the desk clerk had to inform each guest that a Bible would be made available to him/her if asked for.
Click to expand...

You know you keep making this false point. Even if it were to get to a point where the Giddion bibles were no longer in the rooms, there is nothing that make it an automatic default that clerks have to inform people of their availability. They can simply say nothing, not have a bible in the room, and then, if asked, they can then hand one over. I overall support your position, but this is an improper assumption.
 
roguenuke said:
Either they do all or none. They cannot do both. If anyone else asked them to put any books or even just pamphlets/papers in their rooms (provided by some private party), so long as they cannot be deemed as "offensive" (something that basically couldn't be sold openly in the NEX), they would have to do it as long as they put the Bibles there. Otherwise they are opening themselves up to a lawsuit that they have little chance of winning.
Click to expand...

That is the problem which I could see happening.

Jim Jones of the infamous Jonestown had tax exempt status by the IRS and would have qualified to put his crap in rooms.

I think we are just opening a big can of worms.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I really feel bad for you that you have so much problem with a book being present in a hotel room.
Click to expand...

I have a problem with the intolerance that a lot of readers of that book keep on spewing. I do not think revering a book with so many antiquated ridiculous and down right evil punishments and actions in it as something to be admired or to be followed/revered.

But that is a different discussion and I realize is not the right or correct place for that discussion, so I will not go into that any further.

Fact is that unwanted documentation is something I think every hotel should avoid. The same goes with torah, qu'aran, etc. etc. etc.
 
maquiscat said:
You know you keep making this false point. Even if it were to get to a point where the Giddion bibles were no longer in the rooms, there is nothing that make it an automatic default that clerks have to inform people of their availability. They can simply say nothing, not have a bible in the room, and then, if asked, they can then hand one over. I overall support your position, but this is an improper assumption.
Click to expand...

The assumption is not improper when that is exactly what the Navy was doing. Did you read any of the opening posts of the thread?

But you are correct. The Gideons could be told to take a hike and it wouldn't be mentioned at the front desk. No harm. No foul. Or they could accept the gracious and selfless gift of the Gideons, say nothing at the front desk, and at least some people would be blessed by that small act of thoughtfulness. And whichever way it goes, what possible difference would it make to those who wouldn't allow the Bibles if they were in charge?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom