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Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

joG said:
After prison you might embrace him.
Click to expand...

Prison?

Snowden disclosures had a positive impact on the NSA/FISC/FISA

THE USA FREEDOM ACT
Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ending Eavesdropping, Dragnet Collection, and Online Monitoring Act
H.R. 3361/ S. 1599
Purpose: To rein in the dragnet collection of data by the National Security Agency (NSA) and other government agencies, increase transparency of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), provide businesses the ability to release information regarding FISA requests, and create an independent constitutional advocate to argue cases before the FISC.

End bulk collection of Americans’ communications records
• The USA Freedom Act ends bulk collection under Section 215 of the Patriot Act.
• The bill would strengthen the prohibition on "reverse targeting" of Americans—that is, targeting a foreigner with the goal of obtaining communications involving an American.
• The bill requires the government to more aggressively filter and discard information about Americans accidentally collected through PRISM and related programs.

Reform the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court
• The USA Freedom Act creates an Office of the Special Advocate (OSA) tasked with promoting privacy interests before the FISA court’s closed proceedings. The OSA will have the authority to appeal decisions of the FISA court.
• The bill creates new and more robust reporting requirements to ensure that Congress is aware of actions by the FISC and intelligence community as a whole.
• The bill would grant the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board subpoena authority to investigate issues related to privacy and national security.

Increase Transparency
• The USA Freedom Act would end secret laws by requiring the Attorney General to publicly disclose all FISC decisions issued after July 10, 2003 that contain a significant construction or interpretation of law.
• Under the bill, Internet and telecom companies would be allowed to publicly report an estimate of (1) the number of FISA orders and national security letters received, (2) the number of such orders and letters complied with, and (3) the number of users or accounts on whom information was demanded under the orders and letters.
• The bill would require the government to make annual or semiannual public reports estimating the total number of individuals and U.S. persons that were subject to FISA orders authorizing electronic surveillance, pen/trap devices, and access to business records.

National Security Letters
• The USA Freedom Act adopts a single standard for Section 215 and NSL protection to ensure the Administration doesn’t use different authorities to support bulk collection. It also adds a sunset date to NSLs requiring that Congress reauthorize the government’s authority thereby ensuring proper congressional review.
 
NonoBadDog said:
I didn't mean to say you were debating him. I was trying to tactfully tell OWO that I pretty much disagree with him. He was making blanket statements and it was the same statement over and over. I hate listening to the same information more than twice. Ask my wife.

The thing that is frustrating to me is the lack of adherence to the law and the lack of accountability. If they break the law they should go to jail and that just doesn't happen. There isn't any reason they shouldn't do just whatever the hell they want.
Click to expand...


Then you would be correct. What NSA was doing was an intrusion of fourth amendment rights, and a threat to a democratic society. The outrage wasnt confined to a party, it was bi-partisan and universal.

Republican leaders have voted to denounce the “intrusion on basic human rights that threatens the very foundations of a democratic society” by the National Security Agency and backed efforts in Congress to outlaw all bulk collection of data on Americans.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-surveillance-condemned-republican-resoultion
 
Montecresto said:
Prison?

Snowden disclosures had a positive impact on the NSA/FISC/FISA

THE USA FREEDOM ACT
Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ending Eavesdropping, Dragnet Collection, and Online Monitoring Act
H.R. 3361/ S. 1599
Purpose: To rein in the dragnet collection of data by the National Security Agency (NSA) and other government agencies, increase transparency of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC), provide businesses the ability to release information regarding FISA requests, and create an independent constitutional advocate to argue cases before the FISC.

End bulk collection of Americans’ communications records
• The USA Freedom Act ends bulk collection under Section 215 of the Patriot Act.
• The bill would strengthen the prohibition on "reverse targeting" of Americans—that is, targeting a foreigner with the goal of obtaining communications involving an American.
• The bill requires the government to more aggressively filter and discard information about Americans accidentally collected through PRISM and related programs.

Reform the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court
• The USA Freedom Act creates an Office of the Special Advocate (OSA) tasked with promoting privacy interests before the FISA court’s closed proceedings. The OSA will have the authority to appeal decisions of the FISA court.
• The bill creates new and more robust reporting requirements to ensure that Congress is aware of actions by the FISC and intelligence community as a whole.
• The bill would grant the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board subpoena authority to investigate issues related to privacy and national security.

Increase Transparency
• The USA Freedom Act would end secret laws by requiring the Attorney General to publicly disclose all FISC decisions issued after July 10, 2003 that contain a significant construction or interpretation of law.
• Under the bill, Internet and telecom companies would be allowed to publicly report an estimate of (1) the number of FISA orders and national security letters received, (2) the number of such orders and letters complied with, and (3) the number of users or accounts on whom information was demanded under the orders and letters.
• The bill would require the government to make annual or semiannual public reports estimating the total number of individuals and U.S. persons that were subject to FISA orders authorizing electronic surveillance, pen/trap devices, and access to business records.

National Security Letters
• The USA Freedom Act adopts a single standard for Section 215 and NSL protection to ensure the Administration doesn’t use different authorities to support bulk collection. It also adds a sunset date to NSLs requiring that Congress reauthorize the government’s authority thereby ensuring proper congressional review.
Click to expand...

Sure the publication of the documents had positive impacts. That is fine and good.

But that is not enough reason to discount the negatives. He simply went too far for that. Had he refrained from publicizing the foreign activities of NSA I could understand your position. As it is, no way.
I live in the midst of a foreign population that went into a frenzy and is following very negative policy for the US because of the revelations. And after the Manning thing foreign agencies are less likely to reveal sources or even information for fear of embarrassment. The Snowden thing is costing the US dearly.

That man must go to jail for treason.
 
They don't care about that. They try to pretend that that didn't happen as much as possible. The two things Snowden fans absolutely must do:

1- Pretend that their opinion of what should be legal is actual fact.
2- Ignore that Snowden disclosed operations that were wholly foreign.

Take note: they always adhere to both of those rules. When you have to deny reality to maintain your position...well, that's indicative of not having a logically sound position.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
They don't care about that. They try to pretend that that didn't happen as much as possible. The two things Snowden fans absolutely must do:

1- Pretend that their opinion of what should be legal is actual fact.
2- Ignore that Snowden disclosed operations that were wholly foreign.

Take note: they always adhere to both of those rules. When you have to deny reality to maintain your position...well, that's indicative of not having a logically sound position.
Click to expand...

I'm on team Snowden, and I don't adhere to either. I understand that laws were passed in order to make everything the NSA does completely legal...which makes what they do all the worse for it.

I also support the exposure of how, and to what extent, we were spying on our allies.

If we found out Germany had a tap on Obamas phone, you'd be perfectly fine with it, right?

Bottom line? Snowmen flipped the light switch on a roach infested basement. We never realized there was a problem, till after he flipped the switch.
 
joG said:
Sure the publication of the documents had positive impacts. That is fine and good.

But that is not enough reason to discount the negatives. He simply went too far for that. Had he refrained from publicizing the foreign activities of NSA I could understand your position. As it is, no way.
I live in the midst of a foreign population that went into a frenzy and is following very negative policy for the US because of the revelations. And after the Manning thing foreign agencies are less likely to reveal sources or even information for fear of embarrassment. The Snowden thing is costing the US dearly.

That man must go to jail for treason.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's going to happen, Americans are split on this. As they tend to be when it comes to security verses civil liberties.
 
KevinKohler said:
I'm on team Snowden, and I don't adhere to either. I understand that laws were passed in order to make everything the NSA does completely legal...which makes what they do all the worse for it.
Click to expand...

Good! I'm happy to be wrong in this case, spread the word among your brethren.

I also support the exposure of how, and to what extent, we were spying on our allies.
Click to expand...

...why?

If we found out Germany had a tap on Obamas phone, you'd be perfectly fine with it, right?
Click to expand...

No? I'd prefer a world in which no one spied. I'd also prefer a world in which everyone was nice and everyone was beautiful and smart. Unfortunately, I don't live in one. Nor do you. So I understand that Germany spies on the US just as the US spies on Germany. That's...the world? That's normal.

Bottom line? Snowmen flipped the light switch on a roach infested basement. We never realized there was a problem, till after he flipped the switch.
Click to expand...

Ah, there's no problem. Let the professionals handle it.
 
Montecresto said:
I don't think that's going to happen, Americans are split on this. As they tend to be when it comes to security verses civil liberties.
Click to expand...

The guy is a criminal, committed treason and he did huge damage. It would be really bad to create the precedence of rewarding such behavior. The way an intelligent society would handle it would be to change the laws where indicated, institutionalize a whistle-blowing method for the future and leave this man in Prison for 5 decades.
 
KevinKohler said:
I'm on team Snowden, and I don't adhere to either. I understand that laws were passed in order to make everything the NSA does completely legal...which makes what they do all the worse for it.

I also support the exposure of how, and to what extent, we were spying on our allies.

If we found out Germany had a tap on Obamas phone, you'd be perfectly fine with it, right?

Bottom line? Snowmen flipped the light switch on a roach infested basement. We never realized there was a problem, till after he flipped the switch.
Click to expand...

Funny you should say that Kevin....

"BERLIN (AP) -- Germany's foreign intelligence agency eavesdropped on calls made by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and his predecessor Hillary Clinton, German magazine Der Spiegel reported Saturday.

The respected news weekly reported that the agency, known by its German acronym BND, tapped a satellite phone conversation Kerry made in 2013 as part of its surveillance of telecommunications in the Middle East. The agency also recorded a conversation between Clinton and former U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan a year earlier, Der Spiegel claimed."

News from The Associated Press
 
joG said:
The guy is a criminal, committed treason and he did huge damage. It would be really bad to create the precedence of rewarding such behavior. The way an intelligent society would handle it would be to change the laws where indicated, institutionalize a whistle-blowing method for the future and leave this man in Prison for 5 decades.
Click to expand...

Like I said, not likely. You represent but one of two views on Snowden.
 
Because that's what intelligence agencies do. I mean are people actually surprised? What did they think they did?
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Because that's what intelligence agencies do. I mean are people actually surprised? What did they think they did?
Click to expand...

What surprises me, is the attitude that it is okay that Snowden committed treason, did all that damage in foreign relations, harmed American interests internationally, and was too lazy to publish only material that related to domestic wrong doing of the government.
 
They just like to ignore all that, for their own personal political preferences. They simply don't care, while bleating about how we should care about what they want.
 
joG said:
What surprises me, is the attitude that it is okay that Snowden committed treason, did all that damage in foreign relations, harmed American interests internationally, and was too lazy to publish only material that related to domestic wrong doing of the government.
Click to expand...

The NSA damaged foreign relations, some "American interests" are better harmed because they aren't mine and many other Americans interests. And you'd still be throwing Snowden under the bus had he only disclosed information on the NSA's domestic abuses, we all know that because your loyalties are not properly prioritised.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
And now we're back to you talking about good and bad. What the ****, dude? Is it physically impossible for you to type the words "Yes, what the NSA is doing is legal" or something? If you have an allergy, let me know! You either pretend that it's not or just skip saying it and go right to examples of laws being bad. Why is it you can't simply state that the NSA is doing legal activities? This is getting to be a farce now; I gave you the benefit of the doubt but now this is just silly.

Here: just say it's legal and we can avoid talking about it and go straight to good vs bad. I'm not even reading the rest of your post until you can be intellectually honest, sorry.
Click to expand...

Law is society's codification of right and wrong. Asking if something is legal or not is irrelevant. Is a person or agency doing something wrong? Slavery was legal, and it was wrong. The problem with this case is the very nature of secrecy involved. The USSC is the final arbiter in this country of right and wrong from a legal standpoint, and only comtemporarily at that (the court can and does overturn it's own decisions). If this information had never leaked, there would be no review. Do you get that? Legal and illegal are merely temporary distinctions of glorified right and punishable wrong. To ask if something is temporarily in one column or another on a ledger is completely arbitrary and worthless in the grand scheme.

The real question is: does the nature of collection performed by the NSA satisfy the requirement for specific oversight as outlined by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America?

Snowden asked that question. It might actually get answered now.
 
Gonzo Rodeo said:
Law is society's codification of right and wrong. Asking if something is legal or not is irrelevant. Is a person or agency doing something wrong? Slavery was legal, and it was wrong. The problem with this case is the very nature of secrecy involved. The USSC is the final arbiter in this country of right and wrong from a legal standpoint, and only comtemporarily at that (the court can and does overturn it's own decisions). If this information had never leaked, there would be no review. Do you get that? Legal and illegal are merely temporary distinctions of glorified right and punishable wrong. To ask if something is temporarily in one column or another on a ledger is completely arbitrary and worthless in the grand scheme.

The real question is: does the nature of collection performed by the NSA satisfy the requirement for specific oversight as outlined by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America?

Snowden asked that question. It might actually get answered now.
Click to expand...

Exactly, its like arguing that the firebombing of Tokyo wasn't wrong, because targeting civilians wasn't recognised by the US as war crimes until 1975!
 
The problem for Snowden is that there is no legal defense for treason. You either did or you didn't and he's already admitted he has. There's no "Yes I did but I had a super real good reason". He would never be able to mount a defense.

He's doomed to a life in Russia for Putin to prance around every now and then and biding his time on anime forums.

j-mac said:
The law was broken, and Snowden has the right to face his accusers in court. If he weren't such a coward POS, he'd do that.
Click to expand...
 
He's not a whistleblower in the legal sense. He hasn't uncovered any illegal activity.

j-mac said:
Then he should come on back and put it all in the open to a judge. If he is a true whistle blower, there are laws to protect him, if he is just another petulant, cowardly, child that wants to throw a wrench into things, then he'll go to jail.
Click to expand...
 
joG said:
The guy is a criminal, committed treason and he did huge damage. It would be really bad to create the precedence of rewarding such behavior. The way an intelligent society would handle it would be to change the laws where indicated, institutionalize a whistle-blowing method for the future and leave this man in Prison for 5 decades.
Click to expand...

Whistle blowing procedures implemented by people that should be exposed as immoral criminals will never be effective.
 
TobyOne said:
The problem for Snowden is that there is no legal defense for treason. You either did or you didn't and he's already admitted he has. There's no "Yes I did but I had a super real good reason". He would never be able to mount a defense.

He's doomed to a life in Russia for Putin to prance around every now and then and biding his time on anime forums.
Click to expand...

If you define treason as betraying your nation and its principals, then Snowden did not commit an act of treason. In fact he is a patriot who risked a lifetime in prison to protect the constitutional principals of due process and privacy. One may think that Snowden made the wrong call, but it can not be honestly denied that he acted for what he considered benevolent reasons.
 
TobyOne said:
He's not a whistleblower in the legal sense. He hasn't uncovered any illegal activity.
Click to expand...

Some courts have ruled the uncovered activities illegal.

"Judge Questions Legality of N.S.A. Phone RecordsBy CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: December 16, 2013
WASHINGTON — A federal district judge ruled on Monday that the National Security Agency program that is systematically keeping records of all Americans’ phone calls most likely violates the Constitution, describing its technology as “almost Orwellian” and suggesting that James Madison would be “aghast” to learn that the government was encroaching on liberty in such a way.

The judge, Richard J. Leon of Federal District Court for the District of Columbia, ordered the government to stop collecting data on the personal calls of the two plaintiffs in the case and to destroy the records of their calling history......“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘arbitrary’ invasion than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” Judge Leon wrote in a 68-page ruling. “Surely, such a program infringes on ‘that degree of privacy’ that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment,” which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures...."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/u...a-phone-data-program.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
 
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joG said:
Sure the publication of the documents had positive impacts. That is fine and good.

But that is not enough reason to discount the negatives. He simply went too far for that. Had he refrained from publicizing the foreign activities of NSA I could understand your position. As it is, no way.
I live in the midst of a foreign population that went into a frenzy and is following very negative policy for the US because of the revelations. And after the Manning thing foreign agencies are less likely to reveal sources or even information for fear of embarrassment. The Snowden thing is costing the US dearly.

That man must go to jail for treason.
Click to expand...

Exposing the crimes of government is patriotism, NOT treason.

Informing citizens of methodical assaults on constitutional principles by the government is patriotism, not treason.

Elected and appointed officials violating the constitution, THAT is treason.
 
"Questions legality" doesn't mean much. We've seen how judges can be morons even at SC level.

Regardless, at the time of Snowden's treason, it was legal.


Hard Truth said:
Some courts have ruled the uncovered activities illegal.

"Judge Questions Legality of N.S.A. Phone RecordsBy CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: December 16, 2013
WASHINGTON — A federal district judge ruled on Monday that the National Security Agency program that is systematically keeping records of all Americans’ phone calls most likely violates the Constitution, describing its technology as “almost Orwellian” and suggesting that James Madison would be “aghast” to learn that the government was encroaching on liberty in such a way.

The judge, Richard J. Leon of Federal District Court for the District of Columbia, ordered the government to stop collecting data on the personal calls of the two plaintiffs in the case and to destroy the records of their calling history......“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘arbitrary’ invasion than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” Judge Leon wrote in a 68-page ruling. “Surely, such a program infringes on ‘that degree of privacy’ that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment,” which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures...."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/u...a-phone-data-program.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Click to expand...
 
Thats not the definition of treason.

Hard Truth said:
If you define treason as betraying your nation and its principals, then Snowden did not commit an act of treason. In fact he is a patriot who risked a lifetime in prison to protect the constitutional principals of due process and privacy. One may think that Snowden made the wrong call, but it can not be honestly denied that he acted for what he considered benevolent reasons.
Click to expand...
 
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