House passes $694 million border bill

sangha said:

I don't see the word "everyone"

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Dude you straight up said "its what the American people want" now considering this is even a debate proves this is not what the American people want. This is what progressives and maybe RINO's want, but not me and the rest of the sane US citizens want.

sangha said:

I don't see how that addresses my point about the apparent contradiction in your position on ACA (you oppose based partially on the fact that the majority don't support it) and your position on immigration (you support deportation even though the majority doesn't support it)




The American people disagree with you. That's not what they want. Why is it wrong when ACA is "forced down the throats" of americans, but OK when deportation is forced down the throats of Americans?

And you haven't explained why it's wrong for Reid to table the House immigration bill when that is consistent with the desires of the American people

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The ACA is a bill that the majority didn't want that was forced upon the American people by a political party and their political agenda. By senators and representatives that failed to represent the people, that put political party ahead of the people. Plain and simple. We have the the ACA because Pelosi and Reid used the whip, used threats and used bribes. Now that is what I really have against the ACA, the use of whips, threats and bribes.

The immigration bill not being brought up in the senate has nothing to do with the use of the whip, threats and bribes. If the American people are totally against, let the senate vote without the use of the whip, threats and bribes. Let each senator vote the wishes of their state and the people they represent in their state and not of their political party. If as you say, the majority of the people are against it, the majority of the people in a senators state, then if they have a Republican Senator, they should kick him out in the next election by not listening to the peoples wishes.

This my party right or wrong has to go. We are in the quandary we are in today because our elected leaders, almost all of them put their political party way above the people they are suppose to represent. A house member should be representing his district and the people in it first, not his political party. A senator should be representing his state first, not his political party.

I will never understand why this is so hard for people to understand. Well, the die hards of each party anyway. This is why I am a Reform Party member and do not belong to either of the major political parties. Never have and never will. I have no problem with the kids staying, but I would like the border to be secured. That is my view on this subject. But what I think has little to do with the legislative process.

The house passes a bill. The senate takes it up and makes the changes the senate wants, adds, deletes, amends. Then the senate sends the bill back to the house where they can either pass it or make their changes, additions, deletions and amendments and so on. How can one who believes in our legislative process think tabling is right? Tabling is one person deciding the fate of legislation. That one person should not be Reid. It should be the president. If the president vetos the legislation, let congress over ride it if they can. But no senator or representative should have the power all by his lonesome to decide the fate of bills that should be debated or voted on.

I would rather Pelosi and Reid use their whip, bribe fellow members of their party and threaten them to death than just to table and put a screeching halt to legislation and the proper legislative process by tabling.

sangha said:

Wrong

Unlikely voters have just as much say and non-voters get just as much representation

And they're all americans, so my claim that americans don't support deportation has been proven true.

I'm right. You're wrong

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No, it hasn't. All you have proven is that ONE polling outfit can ask twisted questions of a canned audience to produce an outlier in results. Read the question again, the question poses them as "immigrants" who are here illegally. They are not that. It's a matter of language and playing fast and loose with the polling.

Mr.Nick said:

Dude you straight up said "its what the American people want" now considering this is even a debate proves this is not what the American people want. This is what progressives and maybe RINO's want, but not me and the rest of the sane US citizens want.

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No, it's what the american people want

sangha said:

translation; You'll consider any poll that you agree with as fact; otherwise you'll ignore the facts

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I don't like any polls. They're all garbage.

Besides, I'm baffled how anyone could even support the notion of amnesty. To me that is masochistic.

sangha said:

No, it's what the american people want

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No it is not what the "American people" want.

You do realize I'm a US citizen and this isn't what I want. So you're wrong de facto.

Perotista said:

The ACA is a bill that the majority didn't want that was forced upon the American people by a political party and their political agenda. By senators and representatives that failed to represent the people, that put political party ahead of the people. Plain and simple. We have the the ACA because Pelosi and Reid used the whip, used threats and used bribes. Now that is what I really have against the ACA, the use of whips, threats and bribes.

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C'mon P! There were no whips, no threats and no bribes

But I see you're back to the "the majority didn't want that was forced upon the American people by a political party and their political agenda" while ignoring that the same can be said of the House's immigration bill, passed in the middle of the night

The immigration bill not being brought up in the senate has nothing to do with the use of the whip, threats and bribes. If the American people are totally against, let the senate vote without the use of the whip, threats and bribes. Let each senator vote the wishes of their state and the people they represent in their state and not of their political party. If as you say, the majority of the people are against it, the majority of the people in a senators state, then if they have a Republican Senator, they should kick him out in the next election by not listening to the peoples wishes.

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There are no whips, threats or bribes. Please stop with the partisan political rhetoric. It is unbecoming coming from an independent like you.

And as far as kicking a Senator out if they don't listen to their constituents wishes, I wonder why you don't take the same position when it came to ACA? Last time I checked, the Senate is still majority dem.

This my party right or wrong has to go. We are in the quandary we are in today because our elected leaders, almost all of them put their political party way above the people they are suppose to represent. A house member should be representing his district and the people in it first, not his political party. A senator should be representing his state first, not his political party.

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And yet, here you are defending a bill that does not represent the wishes of the american people, was passed in the middle of the night, and is being pushed only to promote one political party

And mind you, I'm not blaming you for wishing things would work that way. I'm blaming you for being inconsistent and using that line with ACA and then completely ignoring it when it comes to the House's immigration bill.

I will never understand why this is so hard for people to understand. Well, the die hards of each party anyway. This is why I am a Reform Party member and do not belong to either of the major political parties. Never have and never will. I have no problem with the kids staying, but I would like the border to be secured. That is my view on this subject. But what I think has little to do with the legislative process.

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I'm finding it hard coming from you because you are not being consistent about it. Despite your complaints about partisan bills, you are now defending a partisan bill because you (and not the majority of americans) like the bill.

The house passes a bill. The senate takes it up and makes the changes the senate wants, adds, deletes, amends. Then the senate sends the bill back to the house where they can either pass it or make their changes, additions, deletions and amendments and so on.

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Gee, isn't that how ACA was passed?

Yet you oppose it.

How can one who believes in our legislative process think tabling is right? Tabling is one person deciding the fate of legislation. That one person should not be Reid. It should be the president. If the president vetos the legislation, let congress over ride it if they can. But no senator or representative should have the power all by his lonesome to decide the fate of bills that should be debated or voted on.

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YOu keep insisting that there is something wrong with tabling a bill, but you don't seem able to explain what the problem is

The constitution gave each half of Congress the power to set its' own rules. Both Houses of Congress allow tabling. Both houses have tabled bills, and both parties have.

I understand that you don't like it, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

I would rather Pelosi and Reid use their whip, bribe fellow members of their party and threaten them to death than just to table and put a screeching halt to legislation and the proper legislative process by tabling.

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The fact that they are not doing what you want them to do is not a problem, except maybe a problem for you.

clownboy said:

No, it hasn't. All you have proven is that ONE polling outfit can ask twisted questions of a canned audience to produce an outlier in results. Read the question again, the question poses them as "immigrants" who are here illegally. They are not that. It's a matter of language and playing fast and loose with the polling.

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I posted two polls to support my claim. The link contains several more and there's nothing twisted about any of them.

And they are immigrants.

Mr.Nick said:

I don't like any polls.

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....
That's understandable since you're in the minority...and a very small minority at that

Mr.Nick said:

No it is not what the "American people" want.

You do realize I'm a US citizen and this isn't what I want. So you're wrong de facto.

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You are not the american people

The american people want amnesty.

I am right, and you are wrong.

You know what I say to those who support this amnesty nonsense? I tell them to go sponsor a family, however we all know the people who support amnesty are the last ones that would ever shell out a buck to help a struggling family. They think that is the governments responsibility, hence their nonexistent taxes are some form of charity. Then they get their tax return then blow it at Walmart on devices they use to demonize corporations, capitalism and preach amnesty.

35. Seriousness of local immigration problem

How serious a problem is immigration in the US?

Age Race Region
Total 18-29 30-44 45-64 65+ White Black Hispanic Other Northeast Midwest South West
Very serious 58% 42% 48% 65% 86% 63% 45% 52% 50% 59% 59% 61% 52%
Somewhat serious 22% 28% 24% 23% 11% 21% 23% 25% 29% 23% 27% 18% 24%
A minor problem 11% 19% 15% 7% 2% 9% 19% 11% 15% 10% 9% 12% 15%
Not a problem 3% 7% 4% 1% 1% 2% 5% 8% 2% 1% 2% 5% 3%
Not sure 5% 4% 9% 4% 0% 4% 8% 4% 3% 7% 4% 4% 6%
Totals 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
(Unweighted N) (999) (143) (284) (430) (142) (683) (137) (112) (67) (168) (204) (361) (266)
Party ID Ideology Gender Family Income
Total Dem Ind Rep Lib Mod Con Male Female Under 40 40-100 100+
Very serious 58% 48% 61% 72% 36% 58% 72% 55% 61% 57% 60% 56%
Somewhat serious 22% 32% 18% 18% 29% 26% 15% 24% 21% 22% 20% 32%
A minor problem 11% 13% 13% 6% 22% 11% 6% 12% 10% 12% 12% 7%
Not a problem 3% 4% 3% 1% 8% 2% 1% 4% 2% 4% 4% 1%
Not sure 5% 3% 6% 3% 5% 3% 5% 4% 5% 6% 4% 3%
Totals 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
(Unweighted N) (999) (356) (341) (220) (248) (339) (337) (461) (538) (397) (347) (116)



37. Serious problem

How serious a problem is illegal immigration into the United States by unaccompanied children?

Age Race Region
Total 18-29 30-44 45-64 65+ White Black Hispanic Other Northeast Midwest South West
Very serious 60% 38% 50% 71% 87% 64% 45% 61% 53% 62% 55% 62% 60%
Somewhat serious 21% 29% 22% 18% 10% 20% 26% 18% 21% 22% 29% 18% 15%
A minor problem 8% 16% 11% 3% 2% 8% 14% 5% 9% 5% 7% 8% 13%
Not a problem 4% 7% 6% 1% 0% 3% 3% 5% 6% 4% 3% 4% 3%
Not sure 7% 8% 11% 6% 1% 5% 12% 11% 12% 7% 6% 7% 9%
Totals 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
(Unweighted N) (999) (143) (284) (430) (142) (683) (137) (112) (67) (168) (204) (361) (266)
Party ID Ideology Gender Family Income
Total Dem Ind Rep Lib Mod Con Male Female Under 40 40-100 100+
Very serious 60% 55% 61% 71% 40% 61% 72% 57% 63% 59% 59% 65%
Somewhat serious 21% 25% 21% 14% 29% 23% 14% 22% 19% 22% 20% 21%
A minor problem 8% 11% 8% 5% 13% 8% 6% 11% 6% 10% 9% 3%
Not a problem 4% 4% 4% 3% 9% 3% 1% 3% 4% 3% 5% 2%
Not sure 7% 5% 5% 8% 9% 5% 7% 7% 8% 7% 7% 8%
Totals 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
(Unweighted N) (999) (356) (341) (220) (248) (339) (338) (461) (538) (397) (347) (116)



39. Priority

Which do you think is a more important priority for dealing with unaccompanied immigrant children who come to the United States illegally? (A) Deporting them to
their home countries as soon as possible; (B) Letting them stay in the United States until it’s certain they have a safe place to return; (C) Not sure

Age Race Region
Total 18-29 30-44 45-64 65+ White Black Hispanic Other Northeast Midwest South West
A 46% 33% 42% 47% 69% 53% 28% 26% 42% 39% 51% 47% 44%
B 41% 52% 41% 40% 25% 34% 50% 62% 49% 49% 35% 40% 42%
C 14% 15% 18% 13% 5% 12% 22% 12% 9% 12% 14% 14% 14%
Totals 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
(Unweighted N) (997) (142) (285) (428) (142) (680) (137) (113) (67) (167) (203) (361) (266)
Party ID Ideology Gender Family Income
Total Dem Ind Rep Lib Mod Con Male Female Under 40 40-100 100+
A 46% 28% 48% 73% 23% 40% 64% 49% 42% 44% 45% 49%
B 41% 62% 35% 20% 67% 42% 26% 39% 42% 42% 42% 37%
C 14% 10% 17% 7% 11% 18% 10% 12% 15% 14% 13% 15%
Totals 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
(Unweighted N) (997) (356) (338) (220) (248) (339) (336) (459) (538) (398) (346)


http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/3wuetbzs3b/econTabReport.pdf


copy of poll attached

please see questions 35,37,& 39


question 41 is very telling also.....

sangha said:

You are not the american people

The american people want amnesty.

I am right, and you are wrong.

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I'm a US citizen - natural to boot.

You're wrong. I don't know one person that supports blanket amnesty.
It appears you just surround yourself with progressives, so hence in your mind all Americans support the amnesty nonsense because it's all you're familiar with.

gdgyva said:

i cant remember a president actually "inviting" them to come though....can you?

i agree neither side has done much in the last 50 years regarding border security

but can you agree, that it has gotten worse?

and that in part, it is because of what the president has said and done

and can we also agree that it is high time someone got off their ass and actually did something to solve the problem

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Why is "inviting" in quotations ????

Correct, neither side has done much. Many thought it was unconscionable at the time Reagan granted amnesty, and that illegal immigration wash a huge problem then.

Arguing whether or not it is worse, or who has more blame, ignores the fact that open borders are here to stay because that's what big business WANTS. Why is this difficult?

The only way to secure our borders is to vote out all incumbents, and to not put an establishment republican or democrat back in the WH. Sense they both pander to big business.

Now, think the partisans on either side will go along with that.

sangha said:

....
That's understandable since you're in the minority...and a very small minority at that

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Sure, I'm in some sort of minority - we all are, however polls are useless considering I can target any demographic I want then use the data to support any idea or theory I want. The people behind these "polls" aren't exactly the honest people in the world. If you want honesty I have no problem dishing it, however honesty isn't always sunshine and rainbows, but you want sunshine and rainbows instead of reality and bold blunt truth.

EnigmaO01 said:

Excuse me? I served in the NG and have lots of respect for the NG and my statement was not disrespectful. My point was the NG has no authority on the border and is relagated to observe if that. Perry is a phoney and called up the NG to showboat.

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Militarized border = federalized National Guard. That's the solution to this crisis. Also, partisanship gets us nowhere.

Jango said:

Militarized border = federalized National Guard. That's the solution to this crisis. Also, partisanship gets us nowhere.

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You think our government wants to keep these people out?

Democrats see more votes and RINOS see cheap labor....... The individuals getting screwed here are the poor and middle class citizens.... Your typical progressive poor or middle class supports amnesty because they believe their position makes them morally or perhaps ethically superior to rational people like me, when all I'm doing is*looking out for the best interests of all US citizens - progressives included.

Mr.Nick said:

You think our government wants to keep these people out?

Democrats see more votes and RINOS see cheap labor....... The individuals getting screwed here are the poor and middle class citizens.... Your typical progressive poor or middle class supports amnesty because they believe their position makes them morally or perhaps ethically superior to rational people like me, when all I'm doing is*looking out for the best interests of all US citizens - progressives included.

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That's the boat I'm in too, man. There aren't many like us.

There is a difference between "amnesty" and "finding a way for illegal immigrants to stay providing they meet certain requirements."

azgreg said:

There is a difference between "amnesty" and "finding a way for illegal immigrants to stay providing they meet certain requirements."

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Which is a flawed argument, man. Why is "send them back" off the table? Why isn't legal immigration the only kind of immigration we tolerate?

Jango said:

Which is a flawed argument, man. Why is "send them back" off the table? Why isn't legal immigration the only kind of immigration we tolerate?

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deportion is not off the table, what is off the table is deportation without due process.

sangha said:

I posted two polls to support my claim. The link contains several more and there's nothing twisted about any of them.

And they are immigrants.

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No, you posted polls with loaded questions designed to gain a particular answer, that doesn't support your claim. And no, they are not immigrants, nor are they refugees, they are illegal aliens.

Jango said:

Which is a flawed argument, man. Why is "send them back" off the table? Why isn't legal immigration the only kind of immigration we tolerate?

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You know what they do to "illegal" US citizens in Mexico? They throw their asses in jail, and they really don't feed you in Mexican jails.... Here we say "welcome" here is a foodstamp card, here is free housing and an Obama phone - just vote democrat often.

Dittohead not! said:

But the bill hasn't gone to the president and never will. It's simply another bit of political gamesmanship.

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But it's not going to the President because his party refuses to take it up.

That's kind of an important distinction.

Unitedwestand13 said:

deportion is not off the table, what is off the table is deportation without due process.

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A play on words. The law describes the process, it is not the same as the due process afforded citizens. In this case that's why the government is trying to shoehorn these particular illegals under a law for trafficking rather than normal border law.