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Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal

WCH said:
The stories about the flight being 300 miles off course while being escorted by the Ukraines only adds to the mystery
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It was 200 and that can be weather related, but since we lack the information on this.. either because it is secret, or that the media are too freaking lazy to find such things out.... it is certainly causing issues.
 
DA60 said:
Ukraine | Gwynne Dyer

Plus, since the rebels have no air assets, why would the Ukrainian forces have AA missiles in he area.
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Well that is only part of it..

Also, if Kiev did it and were caught, support for them would probably end. And since they seem to be winning the war so why take such a colossal chance?
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Well one of the theories is that there were Kiev fighters/aircraft near the Malaysian plane and the inexperienced rebels fired at these Kiev planes but missed.

I am not saying they did not do it - I don't know. But logic tells me that the rebels did it by mistake and that Kiev couldn't be happier (especially considering no Ukrainian's were inboard MH17).
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Well then explain why it is Kiev that is preventing an investigation? It is their aggression that is making it impossible for the international investigators to get to the site.
 
PeteEU said:
Horse**** from start to finish. IF they wanted to stop the flow of weapons then they in no way would go after the crash area or the 2 cities that the rebels control. They should go after the border area.
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The Ukrainians want very much to stop the flow of men and increasingly heavier weapons from Russia.

Ukrainian forces have taken back control over many border crossings that were siezed by rebels. They have been prevented from regaining control over all portions of the border because of the remoteness of some border areas, limited Ukranianian capabilities, other tactical considerations, and Russian interference (heavy shelling from the Russian side in support of rebels near the border).

PeteEU said:
It is their aggression that is making it impossible for the international investigators to get to the site.
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They are seeking to save Ukrainian lives by not delaying or altering military operations. Ukrainian lives (and not already deceased individuals) must be the priority of the Ukrianian government.
 
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Cryptic said:
The Ukrainians want very much to stop the flow of men and increasingly heavier weapons from Russia.

Ukrainian forces have taken back control over many border crossings that were siezed by rebels. They have been prevented from regaining control over all portions of the border because of the remoteness of some border areas, limited Ukranianian capabilities, other tactical considerations, and Russian interference (heavy shelling from the Russian side in support of rebels near the border).
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All irrelevant to the crash site. It is very far away from the border and has no strategic value to preventing arms. So again, why are they attacking and hence preventing an investigation that would win them a major propaganda victory against the rebels?
 
PeteEU said:
All irrelevant to the crash site. It is very far away from the border and has no strategic value to preventing arms. So again, why are they attacking and hence preventing an investigation that would win them a major propaganda victory against the rebels?
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The area is relevent because Ukraine is seeking to ecircle rebel forces holding population major population centers. Thier strategy is two fold:
-regain control of border areas when possible
-isolate rebels in the interior

The priority for the Ukrainian government must be Ukrainian lives. As a result, considerations about the crash site and persons already deceased whom they did not harm, come second.

I just dont think it is fair to expect the Ukrainians to spend Ukrainian lives so investigators can have easier access to the site.
 
Cryptic said:
Ok, if you have evidence that the Ukrainians shot the plane down, bring it forth.

Also, it is not the "word alone" of the State Department. Rebel leaders even tweeted of their "victory" after the plane was hit (acknowledging that they fired on a plane, and that a plane was shot down) in the immediate aftermath of the crash. They then deleted their tweets once they saw what exactly they had shot down.
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Well, that's the point, nobody has evidence to be making any declarations. Speculating is one thing.
 
DA60 said:
Ukraine | Gwynne Dyer

Plus, since the rebels have no air assets, why would the Ukrainian forces have AA missiles in the area.

Also, if Kiev did it and were caught, support for them would probably end. And since they seem to be winning the war then why take such a colossal chance?


I am not saying they did not do it - I don't know. But logic tells me that the rebels did it by mistake and that Kiev couldn't be happier (especially considering no Ukrainian's were onboard MH17).

But I could be wrong.
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I'm certainly not going to be one to dismiss the possibility of the separatists downing that plane accidentally. I would dismiss that they did it intentionally. As to a Kiev false flag action, they have the backing of the West, so any "evidence" connecting them to it would be denied and they would have the West calling it Russian propaganda. Also, Kiev could have moved SAM's to that location to be on hand for the plane that was being escorted off course so that it would fly right over the place that it did. Many possible scenarios, too early to be concluding anything though.
 
Montecresto said:
I'm certainly not going to be one to dismiss the possibility of the separatists downing that plane accidentally. I would dismiss that they did it intentionally. As to a Kiev false flag action, they have the backing of the West, so any "evidence" connecting them to it would be denied and they would have the West calling it Russian propaganda. Also, Kiev could have moved SAM's to that location to be on hand for the plane that was being escorted off course so that it would fly right over the place that it did. Many possible scenarios, too early to be concluding anything though.
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No matter who is actually responsible, the answer is not politically palatable to either Russia or the US. Therefore the actual "truth" coming out is doubtful at best.
 
WCH said:
The stories about the flight being 300 miles off course while being escorted by the Ukraines only adds to the mystery
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I also read a link that the photo with the missile launcher was fake. An interview with residents said it was never there.

Will we ever know the truth?
 
rocket88 said:
No matter who is actually responsible, the answer is not politically palatable to either Russia or the US. Therefore the actual "truth" coming out is doubtful at best.
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Can you explain how it wouldn't be politically palatable to Russia were it to be found that Kiev downed this plane, hoping it to be blamed on the separatists. Or how it wouldn't be politically palatable to the US were it to be found that the separatists did indeed down the plane?
 
Montecresto said:
Can you explain how it wouldn't be politically palatable to Russia were it to be found that Kiev downed this plane, hoping it to be blamed on the separatists. Or how it wouldn't be politically palatable to the US were it to be found that the separatists did indeed down the plane?
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It depends on what the truth is as far as who would find it unpalatable. It will be unpalatable to Russia, or it will be unpalatble to the US. That was my meaning. They won't both find the same answer wrong.
 
Lord of Planar said:
I also read a link that the photo with the missile launcher was fake. An interview with residents said it was never there.

Will we ever know the truth?
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No, never will. At least not anytime soon.
 
rocket88 said:
It depends on what the truth is as far as who would find it unpalatable. It will be unpalatable to Russia, or it will be unpalatble to the US. That was my meaning. They won't both find the same answer wrong.
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I see, yes, I agree.
 
rocket88 said:
No, never will. At least not anytime soon.
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It's quite possible that the truth will be known, but that it just won't be universally recognized as the truth.
 
Rhiannon said:
At this point, there has been far to much interference and opportunity to destroy evidence. It seems unlikely that the people/government responsible will be found.
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The responsible party was foud the day the aircraft was shot down.
 
I think we can safely say that this whole situation in Ukraine has been fishy since the Maidan movement started. Both sides are likely mobbed up and backed by oligarchs inside and outside Ukraine as well as each having backing from a foreign power seeking to dominate the country. There is no doubt these foreign powers are using their covert operatives to subvert and discredit the other side. We have seen many peculiar incidents from snipers shooting both sides to a group of police and citizens with medieval armor wearing red armbands and then disappearing after riling up a pro-Kiev rally in Odessa. In this environment of lies and machinations on both sides the best way to look at it is to consider who is most capable of achieving something and who is most likely to gain from it. Few of the most bizarre incidents have been beneficial to Russia or the rebels, including this shoot-down.

The problem here is that, while Kiev can be easily blamed alone for any shoot-down, any blame on the other side has to include Russia. Even the U.S. concedes that the rebels would not be capable of using the Buk they presumably had. Kiev outright blames Russia for the shoot-down, while the U.S. insists there were either Russian experts brought on to operate it or it was otherwise done with Russian assistance. That actually makes the claim of a false identification less credible as Russian experts would be more likely to recognize a civilian airliner when they see it.
 
apdst said:
There's no mistaking what was said on that intercepted phone call.
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Investigators are being frustrated from reaching the crash site due to fighting between Ukraine and the separatists. Disinformation, rumors, claims and allegations, truths and half truths are emanating all around. There's motive for sabotage and intrigue, all parties involved (that's ALL apdst) are capable of deceit, so by any measure, for those wishing to be objective, dogmatic conclusion isn't yet possible.
 
PeteEU said:
Well that is only part of it..



Well one of the theories is that there were Kiev fighters/aircraft near the Malaysian plane and the inexperienced rebels fired at these Kiev planes but missed.



Well then explain why it is Kiev that is preventing an investigation? It is their aggression that is making it impossible for the international investigators to get to the site.
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What part of 'I don't know' did you not understand?

Ask them.


Good day.
 
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DA60 said:
I think your reasoning is completely sound...but I think the rebels probably did it by mistake.

But I think the US/Ukraine leaders are delighted that it happened PLUS the fact that the Ukrainian government apparently did nothing to discourage civilian flights over the war zone strongly suggests they were hoping for the crash to occur so as to hurt the rebels cause.
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I base my analysis very much on the way the story was presented by the MSM here in the US. By sheer luck I happened to be home in front of the TV that Thursday evening, and watched all of the Big 3 in their coverage.

What struck me was how certain they were about what they had been told by the Pentagon. Even though it was not 24 hours old, the MSM was as certain about what had happened as they were certain about a number of other stories that were mostly fictional.

A proper thing to say would be to the effect that "we will wait until an investigation is completed", but those words were never uttered. They were hard into "slander mode" and of course the object was the Russians.

And now a week later, it is ONLY the Russians who have provided any physical evidence at all, in this case radar tracks and records. The US, for all its Kerryesque Certainty, has failed to provide ANYTHING but lip service to international organizations.

Just as Dubya had all the details about 911, whodunit & why, by that afternoon, the MSM painted in a nearly identical fashion regarding this event.

This was a propaganda exercise, all the way. If sanctions won't bring Russia and Putin down, something else might.....;)
 
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