US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’ [W:326]

iguanaman · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Grant said:
Yes, when America retreated of course it did. Now we see the consequences of cutting and running rather than maintaining the positions which were won..

We were not on a mission of conquest so your comment about "position's won" are ridiculous. We were there to bring democracy to Iraq, not to rule them.

Simon W. Moon · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Grant said:
So you are surmising that these groups would not have grown had the US and its Allies ignored Iraq and Afghanistan?

I pointed out the collective opinion of the United States Intelligence Community as stated in a National Intelligence Estimate.

:shrug:

Grant · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Montecresto said:
Lots of Americans are glad Obama didn't leave soldiers in Iraq to be killed by the jihadists that he and previous administrations have supported. In fact, polls are showing that Americans are increasingly dissatisfied with our interventionist foreign policy. Bad news for the warmongers you keep company with, sorry for that.

American soldiers have demonstrated repeatedly that they can more than look after themselves against Jihadists or anyone else. It's the civilians the Jihadists will be attacking who cannot defend themselves. If the American people feel they can protect themselves against Islamists better than the US military then good luck to them.

Grant · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Simon W. Moon said:
I pointed out the collective opinion of the United States Intelligence Community as stated in a National Intelligence Estimate.

:shrug:

So you have no opinion of your own?

Hard Truth · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Montecresto said:
They are the government and its non-leathal humanitarian aid for the damage Israel is doing. And despite the public face, no one that matters believes that Israel's operation is pinpointed as Israel claims. I loved John Kerry's hot mic comment the other day!

Isn't it wonderful how our corporations make a profit selling arms to Israel (and many others) and then make profit providing aid to those attacked to repair and minimize the damage from those same weapons, all paid for by the USA's taxpayers.

iguanaman · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Grant said:
Well Saddam didn't survive so that idea was rather foolish. Bush gave him plenty of warning but Saddam chose unwisely and was later flushed out of the sewers. The Iraqi courts then tried and convicted him with Saddam shouting Allah Akbar on the way down to his fate.

You didn't answer my question. What choice did he have? Any sign of weakness would have meant his overthrow also. I would also ask you if was worth the deaths of 5000 Americans to hang one 2 bit tyrant in the world with dozens of others.

Hard Truth · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Simon W. Moon said:
Umm, no.
I made a joke about human nature.

Some people have irony poor brains.

Grant · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

iguanaman said:
We were not on a mission of conquest so your comment about "position's won" are ridiculous. We were there to bring democracy to Iraq, not to rule them.

I never said anyone was on a mission of conquest. Please don't respond unless you can understand the post and reply with some accuracy.

Montecresto · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

iguanaman said:
I think the events following our invasion proved that Saddam WAS doing exactly what he needed to do to survive. His military was decimated after Kuwait, and his WMD's were confiscated by the U.N. What choice did he have but to bluff? It wasn't even that convincing a bluff either but Bush had a one track mind.

It's rather comical how they use Saddam's bluff to support their meme. It's equally comical that the Bush administration would make policy based on what Saddam and Curveball had to say.

Simon W. Moon · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

http://fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/commun.pdf

Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication
September 2004
Office of the Under Secretary of Defense For Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics

"The information campaign — or as some still would have it, “the war of ideas,” or the struggle for “hearts and minds” — is important to every war effort. In this war it is an essential objective ... But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.
American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature of and support for radical Islamists ...

• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah ... to broad public support.

• What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups. Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist” groups: the unifying context of a shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian boundaries that divide Islam.

Grant · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

iguanaman said:
You didn't answer my question. What choice did he have? Any sign of weakness would have meant his overthrow also. I would also ask you if was worth the deaths of 5000 Americans to hang one 2 bit tyrant in the world with dozens of others.

Once the decision was made to remove Saddam Hussein and change the political landscape of Iraq that decision should have been US policy, just as the anti Communist or anti Fascism was US policy through successive Administrations. By retreating all was lost and we see the resulting situation now.

America is weak and leaderless and the Islamists know it, along with everyone else. If you believe weakness will keep you safe then you have little knowledge of the outside world.

Montecresto · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

iguanaman said:
You didn't answer my question. What choice did he have? Any sign of weakness would have meant his overthrow also. I would also ask you if was worth the deaths of 5000 Americans to hang one 2 bit tyrant in the world with dozens of others.

Let me answer that, NO

Simon W. Moon · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Grant said:
So you have no opinion of your own?

My opinion is that the USIC are professionals who're likely to be right.

Grant · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Simon W. Moon said:
http://fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/commun.pdf

Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication
September 2004
Office of the Under Secretary of Defense For Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics

"The information campaign — or as some still would have it, “the war of ideas,” or the struggle for “hearts and minds” — is important to every war effort. In this war it is an essential objective ... But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.
American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature of and support for radical Islamists ...

• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah ... to broad public support.

• What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups. Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist” groups: the unifying context of a shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian boundaries that divide Islam.

This should demonstrate how foolish some of these bureaucrats can be. Did they not see what would happen when the Coalition left Iraq? The military adage of "Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow" was far more appropriate here.

Grant · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Simon W. Moon said:
My opinion is that the USIC are professionals who're likely to be right.

And have proven to be wrong also.

Montecresto · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Simon W. Moon said:
http://fas.org/irp/agency/dod/dsb/commun.pdf

Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication
September 2004
Office of the Under Secretary of Defense For Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics

"The information campaign — or as some still would have it, “the war of ideas,” or the struggle for “hearts and minds” — is important to every war effort. In this war it is an essential objective ... But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended.
American direct intervention in the Muslim World has paradoxically elevated the stature of and support for radical Islamists ...

• Therefore, the dramatic narrative since 9/11 has essentially borne out the entire radical Islamist bill of particulars. American actions and the flow of events have elevated the authority of the Jihadi insurgents and tended to ratify their legitimacy among Muslims. Fighting groups portray themselves as the true defenders of an Ummah ... to broad public support.

• What was a marginal network is now an Ummah-wide movement of fighting groups. Not only has there been a proliferation of “terrorist” groups: the unifying context of a shared cause creates a sense of affiliation across the many cultural and sectarian boundaries that divide Islam.

The neo-con warmongers don't give a damn about that. I've been pointing out forever that decades of US support for militant Islamic groups have given them the strength they need to drown the ME in sectarian violence. But those morons don't seem to care. Good find Simon!

Simon W. Moon · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Grant said:
This should demonstrate how foolish some of these bureaucrats can be. Did they not see what would happen when the Coalition left Iraq? The military adage of "Grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow" was far more appropriate here.

w/e you have to tell yourself...

Simon W. Moon · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Grant said:
And have proven to be wrong also.

So sell me.

Why should I disregard the USIC's NIE in how the Iraq war has affected "terrorism"?

Simon W. Moon · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Montecresto said:
Good find Simon!

Just digging up old posts.

This topic has been done to death on this very forum.

iguanaman · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Grant said:
Once the decision was made to remove Saddam Hussein and change the political landscape of Iraq that decision should have been US policy, just as the anti Communist or anti Fascism was US policy through successive Administrations. By retreating all was lost and we see the resulting situation now.

America is weak and leaderless and the Islamists know it, along with everyone else. If you believe weakness will keep you safe then you have little knowledge of the outside world.

Funny but America seemed much weaker during the Iraq quagmire when a ragtag "army" was maiming and killing our boys daily with no end in sight. It made us look like fools too. I guess you don't feel safe unless some poor American kid is getting his legs blown of in some god-forsaken country half way around the world. Send your kid then.

Montecresto · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Simon W. Moon said:
Just digging up old posts.

This topic has been done to death on this very forum.

Well it is slightly more important then some of the other topics going on.

Montecresto · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

iguanaman said:
Funny but America seemed much weaker during the Iraq quagmire when a ragtag "army" was maiming and killing our boys daily with no end in sight. I made us look like fools too. I guess you don't feel safe unless some poor American kid is getting his legs blown of in some god-forsaken country half way around the world.

The thing is that we are safe. The "war on terror" is a joke that only increases our risks, particularly in the countries that we are waging it in.

shrubnose · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Grant said:
Obama/Biden should have followed the General's advice and left 24,000 troops there, just as they suggested. Of course Barrack Obama was seriously out of his depth and

we now see the consequences of his inexperience and naive ideological policies.

Click to expand...

He told Putin he could be 'more flexible' after the election and we are now seeing the consequences of that also.

What we see in Iraq right now are the consequences of the USA sticking it's nose into a situation that it had no real business getting involved in.

Montecresto · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

shrubnose said:
What we see in Iraq right now are the consequences of the USA sticking it's nose into a situation that it had no real business getting involved in.

Stating the obvious again eh shrubnose?

shrubnose · Jul 30, 2014

Re: US and Islamic State: ‘We did see this coming’

Montecresto said:
Stating the obvious again eh shrubnose?

Click to expand...

Obvious except to those who wasted a lot of U.S. lives and money in that Hell-hole for no good result..