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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I think the removal of evidence is troubling, and shows that the rebels don't want to be scrutinized...

It could very well show that. It could also demonstrate that they don't trust Kiev in possession of evidence too.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Additional news and information:

Russia supplied missile launchers to separatists, U.S. official says - The Washington Post

Obama Says Plane Was Shot Down From Rebel-Held Ukraine Area

It's been reported that the missile that brought down the aircraft was launched from rebel held territory. Where else besides Russia would the rebels obtain the system, and where else besides Russian expertise to launch it? Also reported is that they've been shooting down Ukrainian military cargo aircraft using the same system. Rebels posted bragging of getting another one (military cargo & fighter aircraft) on Twitter.

So, yes, I think it quite reasonable to conclude that it was the rebels with the needed expertise supplied by Russia (one way or another).

Those are CLAIMS!
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

So?

Doesn't mean diddly.


President Obama said Friday that the United States believed that a Malaysian jetliner was shot down by surface-to-air missiles from an area inside Ukraine that is controlled by Russian-backed separatists.

Since when is "believed" synonomous with "was."

The title lies. Why should any of us believe anything else in the article?

screw that.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The last time an airliner was shot down by Russia, we didn't give Russia chance after chance to come clean, and ask pretty please either....When we spoke we led from the front....Not this pansy ass way of talking today...

Sure we did, and John Wayne lept from his grave and killed a few commies to boot!
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I believe the separatists were behind this.

But after everything I've seen the past few years, I trust absolutely nothing that Obama and his administration says. Most clueless foreign policy president of all time, and domestically the most corrupt.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I believe the separatists were behind this.

But after everything I've seen the past few years, I trust absolutely nothing that Obama and his administration says. Most clueless foreign policy president of all time, and domestically the most corrupt.
Besides.

What would the separatists gain from it?

It's a win for the Ukraine if they can blame it on them.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I believe the separatists were behind this.

But after everything I've seen the past few years, I trust absolutely nothing that Obama and his administration says. Most clueless foreign policy president of all time, and domestically the most corrupt.

Yeah, ok. But they're not lying about this.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Are reports from D.C. or Kiev more reliable? That is the only other option available at present. Both sides would have their reasons to lie, but I think the best test is to see if someone is making a claim that anyone can prove or disprove. Specific statements about what the online videos contain can be checked by any enterprising individual with an Internet connection so it is less likely to be a lie. D.C. and Kiev are, on the other hand, claiming they have some data or material that they are not sharing with anyone saying so and so did such and such. What they do share is stuff that can be easily faked and they already have been caught faking similar evidence before.



Well the Youtube data says the video was created a day prior to the plane being shot down. That may be taken at first as suggesting it was pre-planned or it could be that the video was created the day prior regarding another incident and subsequently altered to make it seem like it was about the airliner.

Enterprising individuals do verify this stuff. There's usually a lag between the CT claim and somebody bothering to debunk.

https://gist.github.com/klaufir/d1e694c064322a7fbc15

Of course, it doesn't matter if it is debunked. Once the disinformation is out there people will still claim it as fact months down the line.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

We all know that there is an information/misinformation/PR war going on, from the beginning of this conflict.

For Moscow: Separatists or "self-defense fighters" = angels. Can do no wrong.
Ukrainian soldiers = murderers, torturers, right-wing thugs
Kiev/US/EU: Evil, conspirators, full of hidden agendas, bent on expanding NATO into the core of Moscow

For Kiev//US/EU: Separatists = terrorists, murderers, torturers
Moscow: Evil, conspirators, full of hidden agendas, bent on destabilizing and annexing Ukraine
Kiev/US/EU = angels, can do no wrong

What else is news?

Now, given this impossible cloud of contradicting information, what do you think? Who shot down MH17?

I think it makes more sense that the people who we know definitively have the technical and operational capabilities to shoot down the airliner are the ones who shot down the airliner.

Enterprising individuals do verify this stuff. There's usually a lag between the CT claim and somebody bothering to debunk.

https://gist.github.com/klaufir/d1e694c064322a7fbc15

Of course, it doesn't matter if it is debunked. Once the disinformation is out there people will still claim it as fact months down the line.

Wow, you kind of just glossed over everything else and focused only on the thing that I was not giving much credence.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Enterprising individuals do verify this stuff. There's usually a lag between the CT claim and somebody bothering to debunk.

https://gist.github.com/klaufir/d1e694c064322a7fbc15

Of course, it doesn't matter if it is debunked. Once the disinformation is out there people will still claim it as fact months down the line.

Hell! Look at Iraq, years!!
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Wow, you kind of just glossed over everything else and focused only on the thing that I was not giving much credence.

Everything else you said in
that post was speculation and opinion I don't disagree with or am in no position to argue.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I see you have already assigned motive to the removal. What if they are just preparing it for shipment to be examined?

Do you know the facts with any certainty?

Keep an open mind please.

Oh, I have an open mind, and I may not know something....Allow me to outline what I think went on from the reporting I have heard to date...

I think that rebel separatists with Russian assistance brought down a couple of Military transports before the MH17 flight, and then shot at that one thinking it was another military flight. When they realized their mistake, they clammed up, and went about trying to cover up their mistake by removing, or tampering with evidence. The Russian's that trained them, and possibly assisted them started in with the cover up knowing that our country as it is now with weak leadership wouldn't get to the bottom of anything.

What do you believe happened?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Sure we did, and John Wayne lept from his grave and killed a few commies to boot!

Oh please...:roll: I see by your response here that you know that Obama is weak so instead of talk honestly about it, you have to resort to childish retort that is largely useless....
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Oh, I have an open mind, and I may not know something....Allow me to outline what I think went on from the reporting I have heard to date...

I think that rebel separatists with Russian assistance brought down a couple of Military transports before the MH17 flight, and then shot at that one thinking it was another military flight. When they realized their mistake, they clammed up, and went about trying to cover up their mistake by removing, or tampering with evidence. The Russian's that trained them, and possibly assisted them started in with the cover up knowing that our country as it is now with weak leadership wouldn't get to the bottom of anything.

What do you believe happened?

Your scenario could be the way things happened, but still too soon to make declarations. Check out MrFirst's post #38 in the Russian profile thread in the Europe forum.
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Oh please...:roll: I see by your response here that you know that Obama is weak so instead of talk honestly about it, you have to resort to childish retort that is largely useless....

I was raised that the one that jumps to the fight is the weak one.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

What brought down that plane, has yet to be confirmed.

Oh come on...Even Obama says that a missile brought down the flight...
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Oh come on...Even Obama says that a missile brought down the flight...

And you think Obama is above reproach?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

And you think Obama is above reproach?


:lamo Well, shut the door....We finally found something that an Obama supporter won't support him on....I guess in the overall support of all things Socialist/Communist, Obama is further down the support scale than Mother Russia.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

:lamo Well, shut the door....We finally found something that an Obama supporter won't support him on....I guess in the overall support of all things Socialist/Communist, Obama is further down the support scale than Mother Russia.

You really don't pay attention if you call me an Obama supporter.

Gitmo still open

Support of militant Islamic groups

Abuse of UN resolution in Libya

Drone program

Border policy

Gun running

Support for the Ukraine coup

PPACA

NSA spying

And that's just to name a few things that Obama hasn't my support in.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Everything else you said in
that post was speculation and opinion I don't disagree with or am in no position to argue.

No, there were plenty of facts in there and those suggesting Kiev was responsible actually have more detailed public evidence at present than those blindly believing whatever America tells them. The U.S. released a "trajectory" map today that is just a CG recreation of what they claim happened and insist that is evidence. Russia releases clear sat photos and radar data and various commentators note specific discrepancies in audio and video "evidence" presented by Kiev. No one has even firmly established that the rebels had Buk missile systems nor has anyone firmly established the rebels were capable of using them if they had them. The fact the standard line among Western nations is that the rebels did this with Russian assistance, something they also have proven unable to verify reliably, it suggests we are in a situation where Western media are demonstrating how little they can be trusted. Any objective reporting of this situation would explicitly note the problems cited with Kiev's evidence and their recent track record of falsifying evidence.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

This is 100% bull****. Once you know what to look for, it takes mere hours to gather intelligence and "evidence". US says it has SAT intel, still do no show it. Russia has shown their radar and SAT intel already. They did a massive presser over it.

That's really kind of silly. It didn't take "mere hours" to find the audio of the Russian pilots and investigate and determine a response, especially back in 1983.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

And you think Obama is above reproach?

Well heck, he also said he killed OBL in Abbottabad. The man never lies. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

No, this would not be the time for a military response. But Obama really isn't capable of a tough, strong response. Because Putin (and the world) don't respect him, and know that he is weak, it doesn't matter what he says, it carries no weight. What is he going to do, draw a red line in the sand?

The sanctions are biting Putin and it will get worse for Putin. We actually have a president that thinks vs. the last one. And btw Obama is doing a lot more than Bush did regarding Georgia. But that wouldn't take much as Bush didn't do squat.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

First let me say I do not watch Fox News. But let's be honest here, the left has CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, BBC, NPR and there is more! So to see people pissed that there is ONE opposing view in the media is laughable at best.

Just because you think all of those networks are left leaning doesn't make it so. I'll definitely give you MSNBC which is as far left and ridiculous as FOX is right, but some of the others are more middle of the road. I always heard very balanced reporting from NPR.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Just because you think all of those networks are left leaning doesn't make it so. I'll definitely give you MSNBC which is as far left and ridiculous as FOX is right, but some of the others are more middle of the road. I always heard very balanced reporting from NPR.

Yep, NPR had a journalist on yesterday stating that every single witness on the ground near the Malaysian plane crash sight has stated that two fighter jets were in close proximity to the plane before its explosion. NPR pressed her on that. Asking whether there were any opposing views to that and she said none!
 
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