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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Western propaganda doin its job.
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I'm a lot better informed than you think. My conclusions are not coming out of Western propaganda. I'm just very angry right now. Russian apologists should be ashamed of themselves.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

grip said:
You're forgetting, like most people that Russia still has a substantial military and nuke arsenal. Almost all Wars and fights start out as shoving matches, then escalate. That's why they say historically we stumbled into WWI.

You throw Russia into that deep a financial crisis and one of 2 results occur, a civil War to throw out Putin (dangerous) or a massive response to us in the form of a military threat (very dangerous).
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Not to fear, Murcia can handle it.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
I haven't seen them have you? I've seen what people have posted but what does that prove, I can't read Russian. However, even if the separatists did shoot that plane down, it was mistaken identity, something others have done as well, including the US and Ukraine.
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Yes, I've seen screen captures, and yes, it's in Russian and I can't read Russian but I have no reason to believe the translations are inaccurate. I haven't seen anybody, not even Russian supporters, saying anything about mistranslations.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Doubtful that it would reach nuclear war.
NATO's military and arsenal outdo Russia's at least 6:1.
And how is doing nothing any better?
It will only encourage Russia do do more. Next, they'll be destabilizing Estonia and Latvia and Moldova.
No, doing nothing and appeasing is what causes even worse consequences.
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Kinda like we've been doing all over the ME for a couple decades. Yeah, could be problematic.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

grip said:
Doubtful? :shock:

Is it really worth that yet?

I didn't say, do nothing. But it has to be measured in just the right amount to buckle them but not break. If Russia ever went that far to destabilizing, they'd be economically ostracized by the world, which even they wouldn't to fight all at once.
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Well, the sanctions could have an easy end in sight: seal the border with Ukraine and dis-authorize the rebels and sanctions will be immediately lifted.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Kinda like we've been doing all over the ME for a couple decades. Yeah, could be problematic.
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that is a far more complicated situation. The analogy doesn't apply.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Well, obviously they were wrong, and those other airlines were wrong too.
Why are you trying to justify their boneheaded decision?
The airlines that changed their patterns way ahead of this were obviously the ones that were right about it.
Do you seriously say otherwise?

You know, the simplest thing - as a parent, my son was traveling in Russia at the time, and then in Eastern Europe. I told him, "make sure you stay way clear of Ukraine." It's called common sense. Why in the hell these handful of airlines who kept flying that corridor didn't have a healthy dose of common sense?
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Pilots and airlines go by the NOTAM, there was a lot of traffic in that area lots of airlines. Sometimes you have to go the direct route, depending on the range of your plane. Not going to change, there have been tens of thousands of flights over that area in last year. Just like everywhere else.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
History shows that inaction if often worse than action.
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History has also shown that action turned out to be worse than inaction would have been.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
I'm a lot better informed than you think. My conclusions are not coming out of Western propaganda. I'm just very angry right now. Russian apologists should be ashamed of themselves.
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Perhaps the same could be said of Western apologists.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

SayMyName said:
So?

You mean people can just fly wherever they want, eat their table tray dinner, have a few drinks, and watch the war from the ground view screen on their tv monitor as if it is just a part of their flight benefits?

I think a lot of people in the west have lost their sense of decency and recognition of the misery about the world as they travel.

I would never have chosen an airline that was flying over that area, and I travel a great deal, always taking care wherever I go. Check the US State Department STEP program website. I am sure they had some warnings about this.
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No, there are standard air corridors that are set up globally. Airlines fly those corridors, usually from an ILS station to another ILS station. Autopilot stores all of the way points in the plane's computer and flies from waypoint to waypoint. The NOTAM covered the dangers in the area, but advised airliners to stay above 32K, which is what MH17 did, just like every other plane in the area. Just like they do every single day and night all over the world. You don't know how airlines work.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
that is a far more complicated situation. The analogy doesn't apply.
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Right, of course not. Decades of US support of militant Islamic groups has created quite the complication.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Well, the sanctions could have an easy end in sight: seal the border with Ukraine and dis-authorize the rebels and sanctions will be immediately lifted.
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Nah, you can't bully them and give Putin no out or he'll look like a wuss. Part of your original solution was accurate in getting Europe to choke out some of their gas and oil supplies. Not all at once but enough to make Putin think hard about the continued aggression in the Ukraine.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

beefheart said:
Pilots and airlines go by the NOTAM, there was a lot of traffic in that area lots of airlines. Sometimes you have to go the direct route, depending on the range of your plane. Not going to change, there have been tens of thousands of flights over that area in last year. Just like everywhere else.
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Well, no, apparently it *has* changed, since the few airlines that weren't avoiding that corridor, now *are* avoiding it. If you go to the tracking sites, now Eastern Ukraine is totally free of flights.

So, if in hindsight everybody has changed routes, and if before the tragedy most airlines *had* already changed routes, why is it justifiable for Malaysian Airlines and a handful of other Asian companies to stubbornly keep those corridors?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Well, no, apparently it *has* changed, since the few airlines that weren't avoiding that corridor, now *are* avoiding it. If you go to the tracking sites, now Eastern Ukraine is totally free of flights.

So, if in hindsight everybody has changed routes, and if before the tragedy most airlines *had* already changed routes, why is it justifiable for Malaysian Airlines and a handful of other Asian companies to stubbornly keep those corridors?
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Avoiding it now. But there are places in the globe that planes fly over, they just do. It all depends on the route and the stage length, and your range. Malaysian did nothing wrong. They flew the route according to the NOTAM.

Airlines are keeping clear of the area now, bad PR not to. But, how many planes shot down in the last 60 years? Divide that by the number of flights.

Malaysia flew what they were supposed to.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

grip said:
Nah, you can't bully them and give Putin no out or he'll look like a wuss. Part of your original solution was accurate in getting Europe to choke out some of their gas and oil supplies. Not all at once but enough to make Putin think hard about the continued aggression in the Ukraine.
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But Putin *has* an out. He could come out and say "investigation has led to the conclusion that the separatists have downed a commercial passenger plane. I can't endorse that. It shows that these separatists are unprepared and impulsive, and as much as we feel for their cause, we can't support this kind of innocent loss of life. It is not what Mother Russia is about. These people need to think hard about the consequences of what they've done. I want no Russian citizen to be a part of this. I'm shutting down the border with Ukraine and I want to make it crystal clear that I won't support these separatists and won't annex any part of Eastern Ukraine, under these circumstances of harsh and impulsive action. Together with the International community, Russia demands of these separatists that they engage in legitimate diplomatic and democratic negotiations with the government of Ukraine."

No mention of sanctions. Just strong condemnation of their actions. That would do it.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

beefheart said:
Avoiding it now. But there are places in the globe that planes fly over, they just do. It all depends on the route and the stage length, and your range. Malaysian did nothing wrong. They flew the route according to the NOTAM.

Airlines are keeping clear of the area now, bad PR not to. But, how many planes shot down in the last 60 years? Divide that by the number of flights.

Malaysia flew what they were supposed to.
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Of all airlines Malaysian Airlines might have been a bit more careful about PR.

Who will now be willing to book a Malaysian Airlines flight?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
But Putin *has* an out. He could come out and say "investigation has led to the conclusion that the separatists have downed a commercial passenger plane. I can't endorse that. It shows that these separatists are unprepared and impulsive, and as much as we feel for their cause, we can't support this kind of innocent loss of life. It is not what Mother Russia is about. These people need to think hard about the consequences of what they've done. I want no Russian citizen to be a part of this. I'm shutting down the border with Ukraine and I want to make it crystal clear that I won't support these separatists and won't annex any part of Eastern Ukraine, under these circumstances of harsh and impulsive action. Together with the International community, Russia demands of these separatists that they engage in legitimate diplomatic and democratic negotiations with the government of Ukraine."

No mention of sanctions. Just strong condemnation of their actions. That would do it.
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That sounds more like Hilliary Clinton, not Putin. Besides, I think he knows it was Russian advisers that did the actual shoot down. He'll wait till the smoke clears and Media coverage dies down before making any rash decisions.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

beefheart said:
No, there are standard air corridors that are set up globally. Airlines fly those corridors, usually from an ILS station to another ILS station. Autopilot stores all of the way points in the plane's computer and flies from waypoint to waypoint. The NOTAM covered the dangers in the area, but advised airliners to stay above 32K, which is what MH17 did, just like every other plane in the area. Just like they do every single day and night all over the world. You don't know how airlines work.
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You might have a point if all airlines were still using that corridor. As a matter of fact the overwhelming majority of them avoided it, except for a handful of Asian companies (five or six) including Malaysian Airlines. Boneheaded decision, obviously.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

grip said:
That sounds more like Hilliary Clinton, not Putin. Besides, I think he knows it was Russian advisers that did the actual shoot down. He'll wait till the smoke clears and Media coverage dies down before making any rash decisions.
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Yes, sure. I'm saying, he'd be saying this *after* truly crippling sanctions were put in place. I don't expect him to spontaneously say so.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Of all airlines Malaysian Airlines might have been a bit more careful about PR.

Who will now be willing to book a Malaysian Airlines flight?
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Sure. I was on Flight24 as soon as I heard about the crash, Thai had a plane, EVA had a plane, Singapore had a few planes, I saw a LH 747-800, Transaero, and Qatar and a Malaysia A380 over the area. I've flown a few of those airlines, no problem. Hell, I've flown lots worse things than a nice Malaysia 777. Try flying transatlantic in a 30 year old Ilyushin 64M, or Tupolev 134 or 154, been there done that. You look at the risk compared to the number of flights, not a problem. Flew on some really dodgy airlines to..try flying on a Laotian airline, tons of fun.

Stuff happens. My airline never had a crash, never had a loss of life.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

beefheart said:
No, there are standard air corridors that are set up globally. Airlines fly those corridors, usually from an ILS station to another ILS station. Autopilot stores all of the way points in the plane's computer and flies from waypoint to waypoint. The NOTAM covered the dangers in the area, but advised airliners to stay above 32K, which is what MH17 did, just like every other plane in the area. Just like they do every single day and night all over the world. You don't know how airlines work.
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I don't know how airlines work? Hmmm, fair enough. Would it be fair for me to extend to those who know how airlines work, and particularly those that fly over war zones, that they don't know how wars, terrorism, and international conflict work?

As I already mentioned, several airlines withdrew their flight plans weeks and months ago from not only the eastern Ukraine, but the whole nation altogether.

All airlines don't think the same apparently.
 
Putin wants to survive politically. I don't think he wants a big economic crisis out of truly biting sanctions, which might turn the domestic politics against him. "It's the economy, stupid," would say Clinton. If huge or all sectors of Russian economy are shot down, Putin's strategy goes down the drains.

His whole strategy so far has been one of dividing the US and Europe, and one of counting on Europe's dependence on his gas.

Now, this event is likely to be a divisor of waters and to turn the international community overwhelmingly against him. Smart and bent on survival as he is, he could very well change his tune.

But it won't happen without strong Western action and united front.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

beefheart said:
Sure. I was on Flight24 as soon as I heard about the crash, Thai had a plane, EVA had a plane, Singapore had a few planes, I saw a LH 747-800, Transaero, and Qatar and a Malaysia A380 over the area. I've flown a few of those airlines, no problem. Hell, I've flown lots worse things than a nice Malaysia 777. Try flying transatlantic in a 30 year old Ilyushin 64M, or Tupolev 134 or 154, been there done that. You look at the risk compared to the number of flights, not a problem. Flew on some really dodgy airlines to..try flying on a Laotian airline, tons of fun.

Stuff happens. My airline never had a crash, never had a loss of life.
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Tons of fun, huh? Well, good for you. But go talk to the relatives of the 298 passengers and crew of the Malaysian 17 flight, they might think differently.

Me, I'm a lot more scared. I think the worse I've ever flown was Royal Air Maroc and Lloyd Aereo Boliviano, and this was years ago. Today, I wouldn't fly with these, either.
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Well, good for you. But go talk to the relatives of the 298 passengers and crew of the Malaysian 17 flight, they might think differently.

Me, I'm a lot more scared. I think the worse I've ever flown was Royal Air Maroc and Lloyd Aereo Boliviano, and this was years ago. Today, I wouldn't fly with these, either.
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Well, I spent 14 years working in the airlines, am an aviation geek and have lots of friends that for the majors. Malaysia did nothing wrong...if their flight was 5 minutes early or late it could have been Thai, Lufthansa, Transaero. They were all flying correctly according to the rules. The odds of a missile shot are rare, very rare. I used to work with the husband of the Value Jet crash, that airline was a crash waiting to happen, ironically, the crash was not their fault. I've flown dozens of airlines all over the world, not afraid, stuff happens, very rarely.
 
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