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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

AJiveMan said:
Sen. Mark Kirk (R) want's to have anti missile defense systems mounted on all civilian aircraft. Oh what a novel idea, til future hijackers grab more planes and fly them into buildings like on 9/11/01, and while our air force tries to shoot 'em down, the terrorists will be laughing in the cockpits. Does this guy have a brain? Please, no need to answer that one. :roll:
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No president will ever ordee a hi-jacked airliner to be shotdown, so it's kinda irrelevant.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Hamster Buddha said:
First off, I'd like to see a source on the CIA referring to them as moderates as a quick google search didn't find anything on my end. And this whole situation wasn't instigated by either of these powers, but by the Ukrainian people themselves who wanted to move away from Russia domination.
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LOL, try googling for a foreign language news. US trained ISIS in Jordan and never mind the fact John McCain met with Khalid al-Hamad and others who fall under ISIS.

You are seriously misinformed on Ukraine. Victoria Nuland was caught in a phone call setting up the "new" Ukrainian Government 15 days before the "overthrow". That takes planning. Also those in Euromaidan were sold a story by channels like 5 Kanal which is owned by one Petro Proshenko (CIA asset by the way), imagine that!

Ukraine was and still is in HORRIBLE Financial trouble.. PM Mykola Azarov requested aid (loans and such). EU offered pennies of what was needed and massive reforms that would have crippled Ukraine. Russia offered every penny they needed, cheaper gas and no strings attached. So Mykola Azarov recommended the Russian deal. But Viktor Yanukovych picked the EU deal and reached an association agreement with EU. Yanukovych spend months trying to get Ukrainian Parliament to enact reforms that were required. Russia closed of some trade with Ukraine because Ukraine decided to go with EU. Yanukovych and Azaroz was forced to halt EU agreement until their numbers got better.

Euromaidan were pissed about that and shouldn't have been. It was clear for anyone who looked at the numbers, Ukraine pushing EU deal with a decline of production by 10% would put them in a worse position in paying off the loans. The Government made the right move. Ignorant people and people who wanted to run the Government fueled the flames for their own purpose, Petro Proshenko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk wanted power and US and EU were willing to give it to them.
 
apdst said:
And now you're going to question my race!...LOL!

IOW, anyone who crticizes Obama is racist and any black person that doesn't kiss his ass must not be black. Gotcha, sport!
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Not questioning your race at all. I merely asked for confirmation that you are indeed black. It's not that tough a question to answer.
 
Wiggen said:
For a 'black man' you sure aren't very sympathetic to the blatant racism faced by the President. You are black, right?
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Hold on - the Right hasn't blamed everything on the black man in the White House - I mean, they haven't blamed him for the rise of Elvis impersonators on the Las Vegas Strip yet!

At least, I don't think they have....
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Hold on - the Right hasn't blamed everything on the black man in the White House - I mean, they haven't blamed him for the rise of Elvis impersonators on the Las Vegas Strip yet!

At least, I don't think they have....
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'Yet' being the operative word!
 
Wiggen said:
Not questioning your race at all. I merely asked for confirmation that you are indeed black. It's not that tough a question to answer.
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Um, yeah, you questioned my race. You people can't stand a black man that tow the line. I'm embaressed for you.
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Hold on - the Right hasn't blamed everything on the black man in the White House - I mean, they haven't blamed him for the rise of Elvis impersonators on the Las Vegas Strip yet!

At least, I don't think they have....
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We haven't blamed him for the weather, like the Libbos did Bush.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

donsutherland1 said:
The answers regarding TWA 800 can be found on pages 257-259 of the NTSB's report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2000/AAR0003.pdf

[/url]
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There are a number of relevant facts omitted from that analysis. The conclusion that there was no missile admits to some explosive melting, some explosive residue, (5%) and witness to missile vapor trails. Omitted is the fact that the first 15 feet of the plane was separated in the first sequence. How can the cockpit be separated from the front of the plane without an explosion? The Radar dome was on the belly of the plane at the exact point that the front of the plane was separated from the aircraft. Exactly where a radar seeking missle would have struck. There was mangled support structure at the 15 feet point of the aircraft, where the front separated. How could those metal girders been bent like that, if not from an explosion? To me, that was a cover up. Why? to give pople confidence to fly, maybe, to help the airline industry? to avoid the embarrassment of US Navy training exercise being found to have been insufficiently careful?

Perhaps the reason there was less explosive melting than in other eplosions, was that the force of the explosion was expanisve, and quickly spreead over the areas of metal, as the front of the plane was forced apart. The front of the plane came off immediately, and the plane continued flying without a cockpit, for about another minute. If the front of the plane had not separated, there might have been more heat built up, and more metal melting.

Thanks for the reference, but I still believe there was a cover-up But I am not on a crusade to uncover the cover-up. I beleive I had read something like that before, but remained unconvinced then, and now. Thanks for the Missile reference for MH-17

//
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Wiggen said:
It's an idiotic suggestion from somebody with no concept of air defense. There are no anti-missile defense systems. There are sophisticated and not so sophisticated ways of distracting and deflecting a missile, but it's a 'missile avoidance' system, not missile defense.
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Well, he is a republicon and probably knows what he's talking about, I mean, most seem (R's) to be authorities on defense systems by what we hear in the MSM these days.

Senator plans to ask FAA for missile defense systems on commercial airliners
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Senator plans to ask FAA for missile defense systems on commercial airliners - The Washington Post

“I think they should actively look into mounting active defenses on civil aircraft that are carrying hundreds of people,” said Kirk, a former Navy intelligence officer. “It’s not too technically difficult to add a radar warning system on an aircraft, where a pilot in command could dispense chaff to defeat a radar guided missile.”

Kirk said he would write to FAA Administrator Michael Huerta to propose defense systems. He said the over throw of Muammar Gaddafi and collapse of the Iraqi army had allowed large stockpiles of surface to air missiles to fall into uncertain hands.
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

apdst said:
No president will ever ordee a hi-jacked airliner to be shotdown, so it's kinda irrelevant.
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That's naive statement.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

AJiveMan said:
That's naive statement.
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Especially after 9/11 . If it is known terrorists are in control of a passenger plane that is heading toward a highly populated area then you can pretty much bet that plane will not make it.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

austrianecon said:

You do realize Ukrainian Government never fired on protestors in the Maidan right?
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Montecresto said:
I do realise that. But that doesn't fit the US meme.
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You all are focusing on one particular incident. And it's interesting that you guys are so eager to believe what you want, that you will rely on a un-sourced video that you don't know where it comes from. But let me remind you....

All these articles come from the same news site you sourced above:

Ukraine's bloodiest day: dozens dead as Kiev protesters regain territory from police
Tributes pour in for dead protesters in Kiev
Ukraine crisis: violence leaves 25 dead and more than 200 injured

Now I'm curious, are you saying that those people didn't die? Or that someone else killed them? Maybe there were joos in the crowd that did all the killing hmm?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

austrianecon said:
LOL, try googling for a foreign language news. US trained ISIS in Jordan and never mind the fact John McCain met with Khalid al-Hamad and others who fall under ISIS.

You are seriously misinformed on Ukraine. Victoria Nuland was caught in a phone call setting up the "new" Ukrainian Government 15 days before the "overthrow". That takes planning. Also those in Euromaidan were sold a story by channels like 5 Kanal which is owned by one Petro Proshenko (CIA asset by the way), imagine that!

Ukraine was and still is in HORRIBLE Financial trouble.. PM Mykola Azarov requested aid (loans and such). EU offered pennies of what was needed and massive reforms that would have crippled Ukraine. Russia offered every penny they needed, cheaper gas and no strings attached. So Mykola Azarov recommended the Russian deal. But Viktor Yanukovych picked the EU deal and reached an association agreement with EU. Yanukovych spend months trying to get Ukrainian Parliament to enact reforms that were required. Russia closed of some trade with Ukraine because Ukraine decided to go with EU. Yanukovych and Azaroz was forced to halt EU agreement until their numbers got better.

Euromaidan were pissed about that and shouldn't have been. It was clear for anyone who looked at the numbers, Ukraine pushing EU deal with a decline of production by 10% would put them in a worse position in paying off the loans. The Government made the right move. Ignorant people and people who wanted to run the Government fueled the flames for their own purpose, Petro Proshenko and Arseniy Yatsenyuk wanted power and US and EU were willing to give it to them.
Click to expand...

First off, we've been training rebel fighters in Syria and not very choosy with whom we're helping. That doesn't mean their some grand conspiracy theory with us ... I don't are you saying we're using ISIS to ... what? Destabilize a country we just left? Take the tin foil hat off and think for a moment. This is just like those who were saying that Bin Laden was a CIA agent or some stupid thing, because we backed them in a fight against the Soviet Union.

And of course they were talking about setting up a new government. By that point, you weren't going to fight a hell of a lot of sympathy from the protesters for the ex president. And if it was already a forgone conclusion that the president had to leave, then there would have to be some sort of government to come into play afterwards. We found out from our experiences in Iraq what a colossally stupid idea it is to not think about the government that follows after you topple the old one. Also, this wasn't a dictatorship, although may of wished it so I suppose (maybe a soviet proxy like the cold war, let's just run them over with tanks huh?) In a democracy, people do really bad things sometimes. After all, we re-elected both Bush and Obama didn't we? That doesn't however give the government any right to slaughter people in the street who are executing their democratic right to protest. Once the bullets started flying, it really didn't matter which was the better deal. People were dying on the streets because a power hungry president was beholden to his Russian puppet masters and didn't (or couldn't) relent.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Hamster Buddha said:
You all are focusing on one particular incident. And it's interesting that you guys are so eager to believe what you want, that you will rely on a un-sourced video that you don't know where it comes from. But let me remind you....

All these articles come from the same news site you sourced above:

Ukraine's bloodiest day: dozens dead as Kiev protesters regain territory from police
Tributes pour in for dead protesters in Kiev
Ukraine crisis: violence leaves 25 dead and more than 200 injured

Now I'm curious, are you saying that those people didn't die? Or that someone else killed them? Maybe there were joos in the crowd that did all the killing hmm?
Click to expand...

One particular innocent? You mean the incident in which the West put massive pressure on the fmr. Ukrainian Government which lead to the overthrow?

CNN work for you?
How about Daily Mail?
How about Kiev Post?

I could go on.. but you get the point.

I never said people didn't die. That's obvious. Rather it wasn't Ukrainian Government forces as claimed by EuroMaidan. It was someone else (3rd party) or protestors linked to Right Sector (you probably don't even know who they are). Right Sector wears yellow arm bands. ;)

But hey whatever.. I read and look at this stuff independently..


Ask yourself this question... why hasn't any of the "shooters" from the Ukrainian Government ever been put on trial once the overthrow happened? Because the buildings the shots came from where actually controlled by Euro Maidan. It's a little unknown fun fact.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Naptyme said:
Especially after 9/11 . If it is known terrorists are in control of a passenger plane that is heading toward a highly populated area then you can pretty much bet that plane will not make it.
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I believe the establishment would do what would be absolutely necessary to save thousands of lives by sacrificing a couple or three hundred lives. Our military might try forcing a jet to land and not carry out their attack, but, forcing an aircraft to land would be about like trying to stop a baby from crying, might prove to be futile.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Hamster Buddha said:
First off, we've been training rebel fighters in Syria and not very choosy with whom we're helping. That doesn't mean their some grand conspiracy theory with us ... I don't are you saying we're using ISIS to ... what? Destabilize a country we just left? Take the tin foil hat off and think for a moment. This is just like those who were saying that Bin Laden was a CIA agent or some stupid thing, because we backed them in a fight against the Soviet Union.

And of course they were talking about setting up a new government. By that point, you weren't going to fight a hell of a lot of sympathy from the protesters for the ex president. And if it was already a forgone conclusion that the president had to leave, then there would have to be some sort of government to come into play afterwards. We found out from our experiences in Iraq what a colossally stupid idea it is to not think about the government that follows after you topple the old one. Also, this wasn't a dictatorship, although may of wished it so I suppose (maybe a soviet proxy like the cold war, let's just run them over with tanks huh?) In a democracy, people do really bad things sometimes. After all, we re-elected both Bush and Obama didn't we? That doesn't however give the government any right to slaughter people in the street who are executing their democratic right to protest. Once the bullets started flying, it really didn't matter which was the better deal. People were dying on the streets because a power hungry president was beholden to his Russian puppet masters and didn't (or couldn't) relent.
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So the US Government and Intel is inept yet people want the Government to run our lives? No, ISIS was created to destabilize Syria which was the goal of the US and the West, basically to get rid of Al-Assad. It backfired.. or known as Blowback.

Blowback. You should learn the term. US has been caught in blowback many times. So has UK and Israel. It happens when you fund coups and groups who might have the game current goals but actually have bigger plans.

But the fmr. Ukrainian Government didn't slaughter people. The current Ukrainian Government is killing civilians in the east and not a peep from the West either. So can't have it both ways.. either Government is 100% pure or you have realize sometimes Uncle Sam picks fights to expand it's geopolitical views and ignores what doesn't look good for who they support. Like US did when the Shah of Iran created SAVAK who was trained and worked with the CIA. Read up on SAVAK. You wonder why there was an Iranian Revolution and why Iranian Government hates the West? SAVAK. They were brutal and make Abu Ghraib look like a picnic.

Fmr. Ukrainian leadership wasn't beholden to Russia. Russia offered a better deal. Let's play what if... to prove my point..

You are leader of Ukraine, you need $15 billion.. EU offers you less then $1 billion in loans, and you need to reform your government, Do you take it?

Now..

Russia says, they'll give you $15 billion (not a loan), no strings attached and gas/oil at cheaper rates in which you can sell to excess to Europe at a 50% market up, Do you take it?

I take Russia's deal. I get $15 billion free and clear and I make 50% profit on excess gas. I save my country oil and gas shortages, massive inflation (as EU demanded I increase gas and oil prices 40%).


That's what the Fmr. Ukrainian Government had as offers. But idiots decided to overthrow.. and what deal did they get? Russia wants full price now, EU mandates a hike. Ukraine hikes heating costs..

Yep.. it was the Russians putting pressure on them.. /sarcasm.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

austrianecon said:
So the US Government and Intel is inept yet people want the Government to run our lives? No, ISIS was created to destabilize Syria which was the goal of the US and the West, basically to get rid of Al-Assad. It backfired.. or known as Blowback.

Blowback. You should learn the term. US has been caught in blowback many times. So has UK and Israel. It happens when you fund coups and groups who might have the game current goals but actually have bigger plans.
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On this, we're in agreement.

austrianecon said:
But the fmr. Ukrainian Government didn't slaughter people. The current Ukrainian Government is killing civilians in the east and not a peep from the West either. So can't have it both ways.. either Government is 100% pure or you have realize sometimes Uncle Sam picks fights to expand it's geopolitical views and ignores what doesn't look good for who they support.
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Or, third, the old government was kicked out and Russia has been fomenting rebellion in the east where a lot of Russian settlers went in when the old Soviet Union took over the place and kicked the native Ukrainians from their homes. Not sure why you keep white-washing Russian in this whole deal.

austrianecon said:
Fmr. Ukrainian leadership wasn't beholden to Russia. Russia offered a better deal. Let's play what if... to prove my point..

You are leader of Ukraine, you need $15 billion.. EU offers you less then $1 billion in loans, and you need to reform your government, Do you take it?

Now..

Russia says, they'll give you $15 billion (not a loan), no strings attached and gas/oil at cheaper rates in which you can sell to excess to Europe at a 50% market up, Do you take it?

I take Russia's deal. I get $15 billion free and clear and I make 50% profit on excess gas. I save my country oil and gas shortages, massive inflation (as EU demanded I increase gas and oil prices 40%).
That's what the Fmr. Ukrainian Government had as offers. But idiots decided to overthrow.. and what deal did they get? Russia wants full price now, EU mandates a hike. Ukraine hikes heating costs..

Yep.. it was the Russians putting pressure on them.. /sarcasm.
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It's never been about what you or I want, but what the Ukrainians want.

austrianecon said:
One particular innocent? You mean the incident in which the West put massive pressure on the fmr. Ukrainian Government which lead to the overthrow?

CNN work for you?
How about Daily Mail?
How about Kiev Post?

I could go on.. but you get the point.
Click to expand...

You do realize that you jut put three links to the same news story right? (Same topic, not same link, my bad.)

austrianecon said:
I never said people didn't die. That's obvious. Rather it wasn't Ukrainian Government forces as claimed by EuroMaidan. It was someone else (3rd party) or protestors linked to Right Sector (you probably don't even know who they are). Right Sector wears yellow arm bands. ;)

But hey whatever.. I read and look at this stuff independently..

Ask yourself this question... why hasn't any of the "shooters" from the Ukrainian Government ever been put on trial once the overthrow happened? Because the buildings the shots came from where actually controlled by Euro Maidan. It's a little unknown fun fact.
Click to expand...

Of course they did. Because the Ukrainian Government were such nice and fuzzy people. No one ever died to government troops, and all those thousands of witnesses were just hallucinating or something right?

h7A1FAF03


You don't look at this stuff independently. You, and others like you, like to say these things because you want to feel above the fray and somehow smarter than everyone else. But your not, you're just spouting Russian propaganda because you have some beef with western society. Maybe it's because you think you should be entitled to everything free and those who succeed should pay for it, or you think "the man" is holding you down or some other juvenile excuse. I find it fascinating how people like you also discount these news sources when they report something you don't like (for example: Ukraine’s Forces Escalate Attacks Against Protesters, but then dismiss them the moment they put up a story that is contrary to the narrative you want to believe in. This conversation has moved into Conspiracy Theory territory, and there's a sub-forum for that if you wish to indulge your fantasies, as I have no interest in it. I'll allow you the last word, so go ahead and lash out or spout more GRU propaganda, I don't really care.
 
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Lol, what an analysis.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

donsutherland1 said:
The shooting down of the plane is not linked in any way with Israel's military operations. The timing is purely coincidental.
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We don't really KNOW that, do we?

Some might suggest that, claim that, whatever, but we don't really KNOW that to be certain.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Good point. The aircraft could have been shot down by a UFO using a death ray, too. We don't KNOW that either. :lamo
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

But then it's good politics never to let a disaster go to waste. MH17 290 civilian deaths = outrage. Gaza incursions 340+ civilian deaths and rising = ..................meh?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Manc Skipper said:
But then it's good politics never to let a disaster go to waste. MH17 290 civilian deaths = outrage. Gaza incursions 340+ civilian deaths and rising = ..................meh?
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Not a-typical.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Wiggen said:
Good point. The aircraft could have been shot down by a UFO using a death ray, too. We don't KNOW that either. :lamo
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Or, it could have been taken down by someone attempting to advance an agenda of some sort....:shock:
 
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