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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Hamster Buddha said:
I wouldn't underestimate the Russian's ability to defeat US surveillance. In any event, I meant more the fact that it's not in the public eye more so than the US Intelligence not knowing about it. And there is a big difference between us supporting moderates in the middle east in a conflict we didn't start, and Russia instigating this current crisis.
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Uh, we've started plenty in the ME, and, we've supported militant Islamic groups for decades.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

apdst said:
The invasion of Ukraine wasn't an accident.
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No, that wasn't, it was a response to the hostile overthrow of the Ukrainian government, the resulting instability, and Russia's determination to secure both their assets and people's there. But the accident I was referring to was the shooting down of this plane.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Peter King said:
189 from the Netherlands
44 from Malaysia
27 from Australia
12 from Indonesia
9 from the United Kingdom
4 from Belgium
4 from Germany
3 from the Philippines
1 from Canada
1 from New Zealand

of 4 passengers there nationality has not been verified.
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I was referencing the Korean flight.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Considering the Russian separatists don't have planes, I'd say probably none.
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Then why would Ukraine be targetting any planes?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Higgins86 said:
Then why would Ukraine be targetting any planes?
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Well, I don't know that they would for any other reason than to have this blamed on the separatists. Not saying that that's what happened, just offering it up as possibility along with everybody else that's offering up possible scenarios.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Lutherf said:
Extending the invitation isn't the same as accepting them as a member. As I said, the objective is to get Russia to back off and to get the separatists to deescalate their military actions. The best outcome is a diplomatic solution but in order to give that a chance we need to get the shooting stopped.
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If I'm not mistaken, Ukraine has been trying (off and on) to become a member. So if the application is pending, "extending the invitation" essentially means "application accepted."

Ukraine applied to join the NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008
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Ukraine


They need to get their democratic act together before it can even be seriously considered. This is twice in the last 10 or so years that they've had a "revolution" to oust a President that was elected according to Ukraine's Constitution. I understand that he may have held positions contrary to a good portion of the population (at least in the Western half), but the way we get rid of a guy you don't like here is to vote for someone else in the election. You didn't see Liberals have a "revolution" to get rid of Bush, and you don't see Conservatives having a "revolution" to get rid of Obama. That's what elections are for in a democratic system that respects the rule of law.
 
apdst said:
I can't imagine why we do. It's not like he's an actual leader that is able to meet the demands of being a national leader. He's a joke, not a leader.
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Well, there's certainly a joke here. I'm not sure it's Obama, however. You guys are like a pack of starving dogs, salivating at the prospect of attacking the President, regardless of the topic under discussion. That's the joke.
 
There were at least 80 children on board of flight MH17.
 
The OSCE team has announced that it was hinderd from gaining full access to the crash site.

Seems like the Russians DO have something to hide.
 
WOW! The pro Russian seperatists actualy chased of the investigators with gunshots!
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Gladiator said:
How come flight TWA 800 had witnesses for vapor trails of a missile, and twisted wreckage by the cockpit, but TWA 800 in New York was ruled a fuel tank explosion by the US; and MH 17 has no vapor trail witnesses, but is ruled by the US as an explosion from a missile? Why not another fuel tank explosion? Underwear bomber? False Flag to get the Ukraine Russian separatists in trouble?
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The answers regarding TWA 800 can be found on pages 257-259 of the NTSB's report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2000/AAR0003.pdf

With respect to the Malaysian airliner, The Los Angeles Times reported:

Advanced U.S. satellites played a key role in the determination by intelligence officials that a surface-to-air missile shot down a Malaysian jetliner over Ukraine on Thursday...

The U.S. Air Force has satellites in high-Earth orbit that use infrared sensors to detect heat from missile and booster plumes against Earth's background. Called the Defense Support Program, the system provides early warning for intercontinental ballistic missile launches.

High-tech spycraft tracked missile's path to Malaysia Airlines jet - LA Times
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Shooting down a civilian airliner is HUGELY damaging to the Russian and Russian separatists cause, other than an accident, this makes no sense.
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Seems history repeats itself, and that it's the innocent civilians that are caught in the cross-fire.

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (also known as KAL007 and KE007[SUP][note 2][/SUP]) was a scheduled Korean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. On September 1, 1983, the airliner serving the flight was shot down by a Soviet Su-15 interceptor near Moneron Island, west of Sakhalin Island, in the Sea of Japan. The interceptor's pilot was Major Gennadi Osipovich. All 269 passengers and crew aboard were killed, including Lawrence McDonald, representative from Georgia in the United States House of Representatives. The aircraft was en route from Anchorage to Seoul when it flew through prohibited Soviet airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissance mission.
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Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course, the US Navy isn't immune to aircraft identification mistakes either.

According to the United States Government, the crew incorrectly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter (a plane made in the United States and operated at that time by only two forces worldwide, the United States Navy and the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force).
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Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The difference being that the Russians shot on purpose for an airspace violation, and in the case of the Navy ship, it was by mis-identification after taking enemy fire.

Isn't the logical conclusion that Russians don't have nearly the qualms at shooting down passenger airliners that most other nations do?
 
Hamster Buddha said:
What I find interesting is that Malysia said in response that they were following "international standards". I don't really know what standards one would have for flying over a war zone, except DONT.
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Malaysia is almost certainly relying on the argument that because the international civil aviation organization didn't declare the airspace unsafe that it was appropriate to use it. However, Malaysia's interpretation is not correct.

From The Montreal Gazette:

The United Nations body that governs civil aviation says it had no authority to determine eastern Ukraine’s airspace unsafe before the Malaysian airliner was shot down Thursday.

“One of the more contested areas (of discussion on various forums) is whether we declared the airspace safe,” said International Civil Aviation Organization spokesman Anthony Philbin Friday.

“But it’s always the responsibility of our (191) member states to issue warnings regarding any potential hazards to the safe operation of civilian air traffic.”

ICAO says it has no authority to determine safety of Ukrainian airspace

Note: I underlined the above text to highlight it.

The U.S., for example, issued a warning for its airlines not to fly in the airspace over eastern Ukraine. From ABC News:

The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration issued a warning on April 3 that prohibited U.S. flight operations to fly over the contested Crimean region of the Ukraine and additional portions adjacent to the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.

An FAA spokesperson confirmed that the warning, called a “notice to airman,” was still in effect today, when a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was reported to have crashed in eastern Ukraine.

FAA Issued Warning Prohibiting Airlines From Flying in Contested Ukrainian Airspace - ABC News

IMO, if a small country lacks the resources to fully analyze risks to its aviation, it should perhaps follow warnings posted by the FAA, among other leading civil aviation authorities.
 
With articles like this the Media seems to want the US to do something about Russia and the Ukraine. I wouldn't push that lever too hard if I were Obama.

Obama decries shoot-down of Malaysian jet - CNN.com

Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- Russia likely bears some of the responsibility for the apparent downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, U.S. President Barack Obama indicated Friday, saying pro-Russian fighters in Ukraine couldn't have operated sophisticated surface-to-air missile batteries without Russian training and support.

In the administration's strongest words yet on the downing of the jet, which left 298 people dead, Obama said rebel fighters couldn't have operated the surface-to-air missile believed responsible for the shootdown "without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training, and that is coming from Russia."
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Similar to them (the Ruskies) shooting down the Korean Airlines flight. But Obama's 20 seconds he spent talking about it pales in comparison to Reagan's addressing the nation back then. It's just more confirmation for Putin that Obama is a paper tiger, and is no one to be worried about. God, he must have been jumping for joy when we re-elected the community organizer.
 
Wiggen said:
Well, there's certainly a joke here. I'm not sure it's Obama, however. You guys are like a pack of starving dogs, salivating at the prospect of attacking the President, regardless of the topic under discussion. That's the joke.
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Well, he does make it easy.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Shooting down a civilian airliner is HUGELY damaging to the Russian and Russian separatists cause, other than an accident, this makes no sense.
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Invading Crimea and Ukraine wasn't damaging?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

eohrnberger said:
Seems history repeats itself, and that it's the innocent civilians that are caught in the cross-fire.

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course, the US Navy isn't immune to aircraft identification mistakes either.

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The difference being that the Russians shot on purpose for an airspace violation, and in the case of the Navy ship, it was by mis-identification after taking enemy fire.

Isn't the logical conclusion that Russians don't have nearly the qualms at shooting down passenger airliners that most other nations do?
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You're suggesting that the Russians shot this plane down?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

apdst said:
Invading Crimea and Ukraine wasn't damaging?
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It does refocus the world's attention on a crisis that had sense dropped from the public eye.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

apdst said:
Invading Crimea and Ukraine wasn't damaging?
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The US sponsorship of the coup that toppled the Ukrainian government, sent the president fleeing under fire is what was damaging. Russia is responding to US/Western intrigue.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Early on, this seems like FF to me.

Makes Russia look bad to the average brainwashed American, and the anti-Russian chorus in the MSM has just about reached fever pitch.

Who knows if we will ever discover the truth?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Hamster Buddha said:
It does refocus the world's attention on a crisis that had sense dropped from the public eye.
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And somewhat distracted the public eye from Israel's invasion of Gaza happening pretty much at the same time.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
The US sponsorship of the coup that toppled the Ukrainian government, sent the president fleeing under fire is what was damaging. Russia is responding to US/Western intrigue.
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Oh, it's OUR fault? LOL!
 
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