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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Put all speculations aside. Just wait for the answers. The U.S. has sophisticated technologies that can detect missile launches.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Lutherf said:
I'd request a ramp up of NATO presence in Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania while extending, once again, an invitation for Ukraine to join. I'd announce that, in light of the situation on the ground in the Ukraine, NATO would provide a safe air corridor for commercial traffic over that area until we could be certain that no further incidents like this would take place. I'd also set up a conference to discuss what could be done to improve European trade with the US oil and gas industries. Basically I would make it crystal clear where my support lay.
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Sorry, but I do not want Ukraine in Nato. They are not a stable democracy and they have bad elements in their government and politics that we should not become allies with. Maybe in the future when it is a stable democracy and not a government leaning on extreme right wing parties, maybe we can think about letting them become members but right now, no way.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Peter King said:
Sorry, but I do not want Ukraine in Nato. They are not a stable democracy and they have bad elements in their government and politics that we should not become allies with. Maybe in the future when it is a stable democracy and not a government leaning on extreme right wing parties, maybe we can think about letting them become members but right now, no way.
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Extending the invitation isn't the same as accepting them as a member. As I said, the objective is to get Russia to back off and to get the separatists to deescalate their military actions. The best outcome is a diplomatic solution but in order to give that a chance we need to get the shooting stopped.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Higgins86 said:
How many planes have they brought down recently?
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Doesn't matter. Separatist have been using manpads to down Ukraine Air Force planes, not civilian planes. You don't go 4 months of shooting down military aircraft fly sub 25,000ft to hitting a jumbo set at 33,000ft overnight. Separatist own the skies over that region with MANPADs. Why fire up a BUK system stolen from Ukraine?

MH17 was off it's normal route. It normally flies south (Crimea) over Black Sea in areas absolutely controlled by Ukraine or Russia.

Also if it was separatist or Russia.. US intel would have leaked or some Congressional critter leaked the evidence the missile came from them (Separatist or Russia) already.. yet none.. that should give you a clue that over the next few days the story will change a bit and outrage will die away. We'll come to find it was an "accident" with no blame to be passed.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

austrianecon said:
Doesn't matter. Separatist have been using manpads to down Ukraine Air Force planes, not civilian planes. You don't go 4 months of shooting down military aircraft fly sub 25,000ft to hitting a jumbo set at 33,000ft overnight. Separatist own the skies over that region with MANPADs. Why fire up a BUK system stolen from Ukraine?

MH17 was off it's normal route. It normally flies south (Crimea) over Black Sea in areas absolutely controlled by Ukraine or Russia.

Also if it was separatist or Russia.. US intel would have leaked or some Congressional critter leaked the evidence the missile came from them (Separatist or Russia) already.. yet none.. that should give you a clue that over the next few days the story will change a bit and outrage will die away. We'll come to find it was an "accident" with no blame to be passed.
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CNN translated a cell phone call that went something like,


"There is a plane, let's shoot it down."

"That is not a military plane. It is passenger jet"

"So there are a lot of people on board?"

The Separatists posted they had shot a plane down, at the time of the explosion, but took twitter posting down, after a short time.


It was not an accident. The separatists who decided to shoot down MH 17, knew there were a lot of people on board, and intended to get World attention by shooting down an air liner. Now Russia has a PR problem. Lie and blame others, is the usual, universal political strategy.



//
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Lutherf said:
Extending the invitation isn't the same as accepting them as a member. As I said, the objective is to get Russia to back off and to get the separatists to deescalate their military actions. The best outcome is a diplomatic solution but in order to give that a chance we need to get the shooting stopped.
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The best way would have been to have a democratic change of power in Ukraine rather than what we had when the pro-western parties decided to throw the legitimate president out of office to then form a government with extreme right support who then took actions that put the new government at a ramming course with a large portion of the people living in the pro-Russian part of Ukraine.

The best option would be a federal state of Ukraine because you cannot put this genie back in the bottle with aggression and repression (and that goes for both sides of this conflict).

And you do not have to tell me that the shooting has to stop now, I know that, I am feeling that it has to stop.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Iron Yank said:
It been reported (previously by the Russian Military) that this type of antiaircraft system takes about 2 years to learn how to use. I'd say these so called separatists are also known as "Spetsnaz"
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I think you're probably right.
 
TobyOne said:
Obama may be forced to give a speech and the WH may even create a hashtag.
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Why do you people bring Obama into everything? Why don't you give it a rest - just this once. You can continue trashing him on everything else.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

upsideguy said:
Reagan did not start a war on the downing of KAL007, a flight which originated in NY and was shot down by the USSR. No one is going to be stupid enough to start a nuclear war over the downing of an airliner, as egregious an attack that might be... there isn't much that a rational person could do....
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The Far Right, and this poster in particular, has a really short memory about things like KAL007. That was during the reign of King Ronnie, who as we all know, could do no wrong.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

apdst said:
As I stated earlier: this shootdown is a byproduct of Obama's impotency.
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Yeah, you were wrong earlier. You still are. This is no more a byproduct of Obama's 'impotency', than the Russians shooting down KAL007 (with an American congressman aboard) was a byproduct of Reagan's senility.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

austrianecon said:
Doesn't matter. Separatist have been using manpads to down Ukraine Air Force planes, not civilian planes. You don't go 4 months of shooting down military aircraft fly sub 25,000ft to hitting a jumbo set at 33,000ft overnight. Separatist own the skies over that region with MANPADs. Why fire up a BUK system stolen from Ukraine?

MH17 was off it's normal route. It normally flies south (Crimea) over Black Sea in areas absolutely controlled by Ukraine or Russia.

Also if it was separatist or Russia.. US intel would have leaked or some Congressional critter leaked the evidence the missile came from them (Separatist or Russia) already.. yet none.. that should give you a clue that over the next few days the story will change a bit and outrage will die away. We'll come to find it was an "accident" with no blame to be passed.
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And you would be wrong. But then, you've been continuously wrong about Ukraine, so why should this incident be any different.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

shrubnose said:
What effect do you think that it would have on the separatist rebels in the Ukraine?
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Like the Russian's who control them, I don't think they give a damn.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
This Malaysian Airlines is a joke. How do you *don't* know the nationality of 41 of your passengers???
How do you don't know how many people are on board? They first reported 295, now 298.
When I buy an international air ticket in the United States I have to enter my passport number and nationality.
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Some of those could be non-rev's (employees flying free) other airline employees, pass riders, deadheading crew, unaccompanied minors, etc. MH is spending most of their time contacting families, setting up hotels, etc. A crash is a hectic thing, especially with this many people on board and all the particulars.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

apdst said:
Wait, you're surprised the sanctions didn't work?

23 Americans are dead. I'd say that's our problem.
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The sanctions ARE working at hurting the Russian economy and have just gotten tougher.

WESTERN measures against Russia—asset freezes and visa restrictions aimed at people and firms close to Vladimir Putin—may be pinpricks, but the crisis in Ukraine has already taken its toll on Russia’s economy and financial markets. Capital flight in the first three months of 2014 is thought to exceed $60 billion. The stockmarket is down by 20% since the start of the year and the rouble has dropped by 8% against the dollar. Worries about the devaluation feeding through to consumer prices have prompted the central bank to yank up interest rates, from 5.5% at the start of March to 7.5%. The IMF reckons the economy is in recession; this week it cut its growth forecast for 2014 from 1.3% to 0.2%.
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Russia
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

iguanaman said:
The sanctions ARE working at hurting the Russian economy and have just gotten tougher.

Russia
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Most importantly, the sanctions are hurting Putin's billionaire friends, and they don't like that.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

beefheart said:
Most importantly, the sanctions are hurting Putin's billionaire friends, and they don't like that.
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Exactly. Putin may not be phased by them yet, but if his friends get pissed, he'll be facing pressure from the one place that matters most: his rich supporters.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Gladiator said:
CNN translated a cell phone call that went something like,


"There is a plane, let's shoot it down."

"That is not a military plane. It is passenger jet"

"So there are a lot of people on board?"

The Separatists posted they had shot a plane down, at the time of the explosion, but took twitter posting down, after a short time.


It was not an accident. The separatists who decided to shoot down MH 17, knew there were a lot of people on board, and intended to get World attention by shooting down an air liner. Now Russia has a PR problem. Lie and blame others, is the usual, universal political strategy.
Click to expand...

LOL.. CNN didn't translate ****. It was a "supposed" phone call by two people the Ukrainian Government says are separatist. There is no way to prove those voices are separatist or even real people. And bit weird when the video that you are using as proof, was posted on line on July 16th, one full day before the actually downing. So who knows.. One has to be careful when saying Separatists posted anything. Lot of copycats using names of Separatist leaders who are known to the public and making claims. So take that with a grain of salt.

I am not saying Russia couldn't have done it. I am saying it's virtually impossible for Separatist to do it.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

austrianecon said:
LOL.. CNN didn't translate ****. It was a "supposed" phone call by two people the Ukrainian Government says are separatist. There is no way to prove those voices are separatist or even real people. And bit weird when the video that you are using as proof, was posted on line on July 16th, one full day before the actually downing. So who knows.. One has to be careful when saying Separatists posted anything. Lot of copycats using names of Separatist leaders who are known to the public and making claims. So take that with a grain of salt.

I am not saying Russia couldn't have done it. I am saying it's virtually impossible for Separatist to do it.
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Unless they have covert Russian assistance, which we know they've been doing since this crisis began.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Wiggen said:
And you would be wrong. But then, you've been continuously wrong about Ukraine, so why should this incident be any different.
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Ukrainian Government coup which lead to. Petro Poroshenko.. who has been a CIA asset since 2006. Nothing happening there right? But eh.. not like Ukraine isn't recruiting foreign fighters, right?

It was a US and EU coup. To say otherwise ignores realities on the ground. Azvov Battalion is foreign fighters who are NAZIs and don't hide it.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Hamster Buddha said:
Unless they have covert Russian assistance, which we know they've been doing since this crisis began.
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Russian assistance hasn't been that covert. That border is the most watched border in the world right now. If Separatist used a BUK for this.. it wasn't given to them by Russia as Russia would have no Plausible deniability. Russia isn't retarded and has done covert assistance before. They know not to give weapons that are highly improbable to get. That means Russia didn't give them BUKs. But rather MANPADs and MANPADs can't reach that height.

It's no different then US giving covert arms to Syrian rebels or Iranian paramilitary units.. you give them weapons that are widely used. That means small arms, RGPs, MANPADs, and Humanitarian aid.

Now.. could it have been a captured Ukrainian Buk, absolutely.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Every party involved in this would have an interest in manipulating the black box data.
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Except Russia.

The reason is not only because they poses the box and thus would not manipulate it, but because Russia would never use the opportunity to demonize Ukraine. It is just not how Russia operates. It just promotes the "truth" not propaganda aimed at invading and annexing foreign territories!
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

DDD said:
Except Russia.

The reason is not only because they poses the box and thus would not manipulate it, but because Russia would never use the opportunity to demonize Ukraine. It is just not how Russia operates. It just promotes the "truth" not propaganda aimed at invading and annexing foreign territories!
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I suck at this, but that's sarcasm right?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

austrianecon said:
Russian assistance hasn't been that covert. That border is the most watched border in the world right now. If Separatist used a BUK for this.. it wasn't given to them by Russia as Russia would have no Plausible deniability. Russia isn't retarded and has done covert assistance before. They know not to give weapons that are highly improbable to get. That means Russia didn't give them BUKs. But rather MANPADs and MANPADs can't reach that height.

It's no different then US giving covert arms to Syrian rebels or Iranian paramilitary units.. you give them weapons that are widely used. That means small arms, RGPs, MANPADs, and Humanitarian aid.

Now.. could it have been a captured Ukrainian Buk, absolutely.
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I wouldn't underestimate the Russian's ability to defeat US surveillance. In any event, I meant more the fact that it's not in the public eye more so than the US Intelligence not knowing about it. And there is a big difference between us supporting moderates in the middle east in a conflict we didn't start, and Russia instigating this current crisis.
 
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