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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

j-mac said:
What's pathetic is seemingly all Obamabots can do these days is whine about how poor Obama is just not allowed to do as he wishes, and everything is so unfair to him....

Meanwhile he is ruining the standing of the US in the world daily...What a failure.
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Our standing has improved substantially since we got rid of Dumbya. Not sure what planet you live on.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

DA60 said:
Thanks for the link - so there apparently were other planes in the general area when MH17 was shot down (though two planes hardly counts as 'tons' to me - but whatever).

Why could you not just post this link to start with (the question is rhetorical - your answer does not interest me). Next time, please just post the link and don't waste my time.

We are done here.


Good day.
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In otherwards he owned you and you need to slink away.
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

EnigmaO01 said:
Our standing has improved substantially since we got rid of Dumbya. Not sure what planet you live on.
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No it is has not it has declined it is clearly you living in lala land
 
Lord of Planar said:
I see.

Now I understand why you are at a disadvantage.
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Again, what are you talking about? There are no links in your post. Care to come down from your high horse and point to me where are the links and sublinks you are talking about? I said, I'll be happy to explore, but I can't explore if you don't show me the links. Your post only contains an embedded YouTube video clip.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

j-mac said:
Digging? I am not digging anything...



Yes, and was roundly criticized for not saying something sooner, but I'd like to compare and contrast the difference in actual reactions and what will be done...On the one hand you have Reagan at the time painting with bold language, and no fear in calling Russia what it was for that act, "barbarians"....Also, he demanded that Russia come out with the truth, and pay reparations to the families of the flight, and to put a cherry on top, he used the incident at the time to further his agenda of Nuclear disarmament. Now, look at today. You have a President afraid to even call out the Russian's for being behind this at all....No comparison.



You call MediaMatters "balance"? Anything but....

Bottom line is that this incident, along with the myriad of others only serves to show what a weak President we have at the moment.
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What do expect our CIC to do, send troops, get inviolved in another war? Short of that there is nothing else he can do.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

EnigmaO01 said:
Our standing has improved substantially since we got rid of Dumbya. Not sure what planet you live on.
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Pass that joint this way because that's some good **** you're smoking.
 
GreatNews2night said:
Again, what are you talking about? There are no links in your post. Care to come down from your high horse and point to me where are the links and sublinks you are talking about? I said, I'll be happy to explore, but I can't explore if you don't show me the links. Your post only contains an embedded YouTube video clip.
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The link is on Youtube. My words were: "If you follow the link in YouTube." What did you think that meant?

When I asked, I assumed you saw the link, but here it is:

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

There are several links within links once you get there.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Demon of Light said:
Here is some of what is being said about Kiev's "evidence":

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Kiev

Key Piece of Video

Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity | Zero Hedge

Their statements about the videos seem fairly credible given their specificity. It would be easy for anyone to check their allegations. Of course, that Kiev is fabricating evidence is not surprising given how often they have been caught putting out fake proof. Hilariously, or perhaps tragically, the U.S. government may be setting the stage for a global conflagration on the basis of "I saw it on the Internet so it must be true."
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Well, it's hard to uphold as unbiased, a report that comes from... Moscow.... and starts by referring to the pro-Russian separatists as "self-defense fighters".

Whether or not what they are technically saying about this tape may or may not be accurate... may be also completely made up, including the conspiracy theory element that the tape was made one day before the crash. That sounds awful, frankly, in its tone of "see, they shot the plane, and planed it all one day in advance."

Tell me, were the tweets that the rebels posted then deleted when they realized the plane was civilian, also fakes made in Kiev?

Now, the billboard... we see a small fragment of the billboard. Aren't identical billboards present in many different parts of a road or different roads?

About the images that pretend to be Ukrainian Buk systems, one, they could be totally fabricated, two, rebels a couple of days earlier had boasted about having captured Ukrainian Buk systems, three, Ukraine did say they possess these systems which doesn't mean they were deployed or fired.

So, no, not very convincing, sorry.
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Well, it's hard to uphold as unbiased, a report that comes from... Moscow.... and starts by referring to the pro-Russian separatists as "self-defense fighters".
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I could say the same thing about the Ukraine. They propagated lie after lie before and after the Crimea incident.
 
Lord of Planar said:
The link is on Youtube. My words were: "If you follow the link in YouTube." What did you think that meant?

When I asked, I assumed you saw the link, but here it is:

What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine? | Consortiumnews

There are several links within links once you get there.
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No, you said "have you followed the attached links and sublinks?" I clicked on your embedded clip, not on "watch on youtube." But OK, I'll explore your link, thanks for repeating it.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Naptyme said:
I have no clue what NOTAM is.

If the airline was following the rules as you say then whomever establishes said rules is at fault. Saving fuel/time at the risk of passengers lives should never be an option. I understand the potential risks that are tied to flying but to fly over a known war zone is simply idiotic. No matter what you say about rules the simple fact is had the airline not put those people in harms way they would be alive right now, or are you arguing otherwise?
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NOTAM = Notice to Airmen.
A Notice to Airmen (NOTAM or NoTAM) is a notice filed with an aviation authority to alert aircraft pilots of potential hazards along a flight route or at a location that could affect the safety of the flight.[1] NOTAMs are unclassified notices or advisories distributed by means of telecommunication that contain information concerning the establishment, conditions or change in any aeronautical facility, service, procedure or hazard, the timely knowledge of which is essential to personnel and systems concerned with flight operations.[2] NOTAMs are created and transmitted by government agencies and airport operators under guidelines specified by Annex 15: Aeronautical Information Services of the Convention on International Civil Aviation (CICA). The term NOTAM came into common use rather than the more formal Notice to Airmen following the ratification of the CICA, which came into effect on 4 April 1947. Notices to Airmen were normally published in a regular publication by each country's air authorities (e.g., in Flight Magazine in the UK).[3] A number of developments and amendments to the CICA have resulted in the more automated system available today.
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Here is the NOTAM in existence that day:

URRV V6158/14 17JUL0000-31AUG2359 EST
DUE TO COMBAT ACTIONS ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE NEAR THE STATE BORDER WITH THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION AND THE FACTS OF FRNG FM THE TERRITORY OF THE UKRAINE TOWARDS THE TERRITORY OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION, TO ENSURE INTL FLT SAFETY, ATS RTE SEGMENTS CLSD AS FLW:
A100 MIMRA - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B145 KANON - ASMIL,
G247 MIMRA - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
A87 TAMAK - SARNA,
A102 PENEG - NALEM,
A225 GUKOL - ODETA,
A712 TAMAK - SAMBEK NDB (SB),
B493 FASAD - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
B947 TAMAK - ROSTOV-NA-DONU VOR/DME (RND),
G118 LATRI - BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA),
G534 MIMRA - TOROS,
G904 FASAD - SUTAG,
R114 BAGAYEVSKIY NDB (BA)-NALEM.
SFC - FL320.
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Here is a great article that explains what was restricted and what wasn't: NOTAMs and Malaysia Airlines MH17 | Wandering Aramean


If you want to go and read NOTAMS in your area put up by the FAA, go here https://notams.aim.faa.gov/notamSearch/

Usually they are about construction, cranes, paving, etc. If you have flown into or out of SFO this summer, you noticed that 2 of the 4 runways are shut down for work, all summer, this results in several notams for each runway heading the ILS, the PAPI, etc. Each commercial pilot is pre-briefed before flying and reads all NOTAMS, usually they will have them on their charts (many use charts on an I-Pad or laptop), and they may be in the cockpit flight information system.
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Soupnazi630 said:
No it is has not it has declined it is clearly you living in lala land
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Ah another avid viewer of Faux News. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Even my dog knows that the world was revolted by the dunce cowboy, and all the wars he got us into -- not to mention the economy his administration tanked -- that effected the rest of the world.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Obama did respond, appropriately so. I was speaking to a poster who thinks that Obama's being a wus, that we need a tough response, as in a military response. I disagree.
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No, this would not be the time for a military response. But Obama really isn't capable of a tough, strong response. Because Putin (and the world) don't respect him, and know that he is weak, it doesn't matter what he says, it carries no weight. What is he going to do, draw a red line in the sand?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Lord of Planar said:
I could say the same thing about the Ukraine. They propagated lie after lie before and after the Crimea incident.
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OK, I read your link... while a bit less over-dramatic than your awful rubbish clip, it doesn't change anything... it says:

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms
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See? It's all speculation... the unnamed source is merely saying that these soldiers in similar uniforms might either be Ukrainians, or rebels.

Now, if not only for that, how can we give any credence to this second-hand ambiguous report from an unnamed source? If if this journalist is not making it up to sell news, his "unnamed source" never said unequivocally that the soldiers were Ukrainian, so, this is hardly something that adds any new element to this investigation.

---------

Here is the core of the issue:

Question: "Who shot MH17? Ukrainians, or Separatists?"

This *unnamed* source's answer: "Huh... They look Ukrainians. Oh wait, they actually might also be Eastern Ukrainians... I don't know, these uniforms are all similar."

--------

Great! This really closes the case, huh? :roll:
 
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GreatNews2night said:
No, you said "have you followed the attached links and sublinks?" I clicked on your embedded clip, not on "watch on youtube." But OK, I'll explore your link, thanks for repeating it.
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See post 650.
 
GreatNews2night said:
Ah, OK. I hadn't noticed, sorry. Minor point, though. Now I *have* read the link, and remain just as unimpressed. See post 691.
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That's why I also mentioned the links withing links. There is so much more information that first link addresses and links.

There is one where the NY times recants information in one of their stories.

When I go to linked material people post that looks remotely legitimate, I follow most or all the embedded links. You will find I am one who complains when people give quotes without links, or links that link no sources.
 
Lord of Planar said:
That's why I also mentioned the links withing links. There is so much more information that first link addresses and links.

There is one where the NY times recants information in one of their stories.

When I go to linked material people post that looks remotely legitimate, I follow most or all the embedded links. You will find I am one who complains when people give quotes without links, or links that link no sources.
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Now I have looked at all your secondary links. Mostly it all goes back to the same blog, by the same journalist who pretends to be independent. He is basically quoting himself. The one outside article he quotes I had already read elsewhere. And the NYT thing about Crimea is old, old, old news.

Again, unimpressed. Sorry. I wish I could tell you differently but after having now explored ALL your links, what I see is *one* journalist with a past (he seemed to have been important decades ago at the time of the Iran-Contras, this if we agree with his tooting his own horn) who keeps referencing his own blog, and who makes vague references to unnamed sources and clearly has a beef against the West and the official versions of things.

Let me guess... is he also a Libertarian?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Well, it's hard to uphold as unbiased, a report that comes from... Moscow.... and starts by referring to the pro-Russian separatists as "self-defense fighters".
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Are reports from D.C. or Kiev more reliable? That is the only other option available at present. Both sides would have their reasons to lie, but I think the best test is to see if someone is making a claim that anyone can prove or disprove. Specific statements about what the online videos contain can be checked by any enterprising individual with an Internet connection so it is less likely to be a lie. D.C. and Kiev are, on the other hand, claiming they have some data or material that they are not sharing with anyone saying so and so did such and such. What they do share is stuff that can be easily faked and they already have been caught faking similar evidence before.

Whether or not what they are technically saying about this tape may or may not be accurate... may be also completely made up, including the conspiracy theory element that the tape was made one day before the crash. That sounds awful, frankly, in its tone of "see, they shot the plane, and planed it all one day in advance."
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Well the Youtube data says the video was created a day prior to the plane being shot down. That may be taken at first as suggesting it was pre-planned or it could be that the video was created the day prior regarding another incident and subsequently altered to make it seem like it was about the airliner.

Tell me, were the tweets that the rebels posted then deleted when they realized the plane was civilian, also fakes made in Kiev?
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Social media evidence is terribly unreliable, but, more importantly, there is no indication that any tweets were actually from people in a position to know. Even those accounts supposedly belonging to senior officials are believed to actually be operated by fans or followers at the most who often only repeat things they hear or read about elsewhere. Given that it is already proven that intelligence agents spread false information via social media, it is not outlandish to suggest operatives looking to cover for something Kiev did would try to spread the word that separatists shot down the jet by making false claims of responsibility or providing false eyewitness accounts on various discussion forums or social media pages. These then get repeated elsewhere and prompts it to be taken as gospel.

About the images that pretend to be Ukrainian Buk systems, one, they could be totally fabricated, two, rebels a couple of days earlier had boasted about having captured Ukrainian Buk systems, three, Ukraine did say they possess these systems which doesn't mean they were deployed or fired.

So, no, not very convincing, sorry.
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Funny thing is that everything that Kiev and D.C. have presented could also be fabricated and there are all sorts of reasons to doubt what they saying. Yet, people are not showing them the same skepticism.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

beefheart said:
Well, you agreed with the fact that MM stated about Reagan not responding....LOL
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Oh, so you think that MM were the ones I was speaking of? Ahem....NO. Legitimate reporting of the time was what I was speaking of...MM just use that as cover to garner their lies.
 
GreatNews2night said:
Now I have looked at all your secondary links. Mostly it all goes back to the same blog, by the same journalist who pretends to be independent. He is basically quoting himself. The one outside article he quotes I had already read elsewhere. And the NYT thing about Crimea is old, old, old news.

Again, unimpressed. Sorry. I wish I could tell you differently but after having now explored ALL your links, what I see is *one* journalist with a past (he seemed to have been important decades ago at the time of the Iran-Contras, this if we agree with his tooting his own horn) who keeps referencing his own blog, and who makes vague references to unnamed sources and clearly has a beef against the West and the official versions of things.

Let me guess... is he also a Libertarian?
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Robert Parry is highly respected. He's worked the beats at Newsweek, Bloomberg, PBS, AP and NY Times. The White House bashes unnamed sources too, but White House uses unnamed sources.

Reality is.. a Intel officer isn't gonna go officially on the record and never will because 1) It'll blow his or her cover. 2) It'll end his or her career. Yet.. WH used unnamed sources on the OBL raid and there are other examples. Just cause it's unnamed doesn't make it less true or not true. Rather is for security reasons. Then when the WH gets pissed they tend to out them like Valerie Plame.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

j-mac said:
Oh, so you think that MM were the ones I was speaking of? Ahem....NO. Legitimate reporting of the time was what I was speaking of...MM just use that as cover to garner their lies.
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Was it a lie that Reagan didn't say anything for 4 days?

LOL
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Demon of Light said:
Are reports from D.C. or Kiev more reliable?
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We all know that there is an information/misinformation/PR war going on, from the beginning of this conflict.

For Moscow: Separatists or "self-defense fighters" = angels. Can do no wrong.
Ukrainian soldiers = murderers, torturers, right-wing thugs
Kiev/US/EU: Evil, conspirators, full of hidden agendas, bent on expanding NATO into the core of Moscow

For Kiev//US/EU: Separatists = terrorists, murderers, torturers
Moscow: Evil, conspirators, full of hidden agendas, bent on destabilizing and annexing Ukraine
Kiev/US/EU = angels, can do no wrong

What else is news?

Now, given this impossible cloud of contradicting information, what do you think? Who shot down MH17?
 
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