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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I didn't say it was proof, nor did the video. It outlined a serious of what one person said is evidence, and even acknowledged what it looked like rather than assuming it as fact.

I said it "may be the most credible evidence."

Are you being intellectually dishonest, or ignorant?

Yes, the video at one point did mention "proof" - watch your own video again.

Now, about intellectual honesty, do you know what is the size of the intellectual respect I have for Ron Paul and his cuckoo followers?

Hint: look up prices of electronic microscopes. Potent ones. They can be expensive, but they'll give you a better chance when trying to see the size of my respect.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

So the Ukrainians went deep inside Rebel held territory just launch a missile at a civilian aircraft,
Why did they need to be deep inside? Are you suggesting it's impossible for the plane to have followed its current trajectory for several minutes after being hit?

How ever unlikely, are you saying IMPOSSIBLE?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

You're right. It could of been a meteor. Can you just imagine?

Or the aliens. You forgot the aliens (the extraterrestrial kind). Oh wait, maybe it was the Illuminati.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Yes, you said "may be" but this bogus video clip said "proof".
Now, I know where *you* are coming from. Ron Paul said similar stuff today.

I am curious what you think of what I presented. Sure, you may argue that the Russians are making it up, but their allegations about Kiev's "evidence" are far more specific and more readily verifiable than anything coming out of the State Department. One has to wonder why Kiev would fabricate all this "proof" of Russian and rebel complicity and why the U.S. would back their claims so unreservedly.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I am curious what you think of what I presented. Sure, you may argue that the Russians are making it up, but their allegations about Kiev's "evidence" are far more specific and more readily verifiable than anything coming out of the State Department. One has to wonder why Kiev would fabricate all this "proof" of Russian and rebel complicity and why the U.S. would back their claims so unreservedly.

Maybe you have a point. Your stuff is usually more convincing than that drivel coming from Ron Paul and his supporters. But I confess that I haven't looked at your material. I'm just a bit busy right now. I'll try to explore it at some other point.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

And therein lies the problem with your thinking. A civilian airliner is shot down, and you believe it doesn't even deserve a response from the United States. Sure, go ahead, no problem here.

Did the US push for action against it self when it shot down an Airliner? Nah.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Sorry, but it took more than a day to gather intelligence and evidence of what happened. I guess you are used to Obama opening his mouth and letting stupid come out before he has any clue as to what happened.

This is 100% bull****. Once you know what to look for, it takes mere hours to gather intelligence and "evidence". US says it has SAT intel, still do no show it. Russia has shown their radar and SAT intel already. They did a massive presser over it.

 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

A friend of mine told me that there is a pic on twitter of a Russian seperatist stealing a ring from the fingers of a corpse.

Edit:

BtB30dsCIAAmRrz.jpg


mhmmmmmm

I guess that is disbuteable. Could be something else.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

So the Ukrainians went deep inside Rebel held territory just launch a missile at a civilian aircraft, and then just so happened to get out with no one seeing? And if that was the case, why the hold up to get investigators in there to look at the crash site?

You do realize Separatist do not have 100% of the region of Lugansk or Dontesk, right? That the region where this missile came from is actually highly contested area.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

This is 100% bull****. Once you know what to look for, it takes mere hours to gather intelligence and "evidence". US says it has SAT intel, still do no show it. Russia has shown their radar and SAT intel already. They did a massive presser over it.


One has to ask.

Why is the US reluctant to show their data...
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

189 from the Netherlands
44 from Malaysia
27 from Australia
12 from Indonesia
9 from the United Kingdom
4 from Belgium
4 from Germany
3 from the Philippines
1 from Canada
1 from New Zealand

of 4 passengers there nationality has not been verified.

The Netherlands are going to issue a declaration of war?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

One has to ask.

Why is the US reluctant to show their data...

One has to ask.

Why is the US reluctant to show their data...

Because they are using social media, youtube videos which have no identifiers and Kiev. When you have no identifiers such as a sign that says location, or buildings that can easily be identified.. hell even topography.. you know it's bull****. ;)

On top of that Kiev intel services (SBU) must be the best in the world cause apparently they have tapped the phones or have signals dialed in to listen to anybody and everybody in Ukraine Yet Ukraine can't figure out how to crush the separatist, their movements or when they are gonna attack a Ukrainian column despite trying for the last 4 months. So it's pretty obvious, Ukraine has no capability other then fake conversations.

But if you believe Ukraine has the ability to listen in for this to be possible one has to accept that Russia isn't helping the Separatist cause if Russia was helping Separatist, first thing Russia would have provided in secure communication.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The Netherlands are going to issue a declaration of war?

With what Army? Maybe they'll Tulip them to death.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

With what Army? Maybe they'll Tulip them to death.

speed skater elite shock forces.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The Netherlands are going to issue a declaration of war?

More like a declaration of 'stop, and don't do it again.....'.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

I didn't say it was proof, nor did the video.
Are you being intellectually dishonest?

OK, so *you* post a video, *you* make the above statement, and I'm the one being dishonest, huh? You may have an interest in going back to the video *you* posted, and listening to what is said between 3'46" and 3'49".

Let's post it again. Go to the point I'm mentioning.



Come again? The video doesn't say it was proof?

Care to reconsider who is being dishonest here, between the two of us?

I think you owe me an apology, good sir.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

OK, so *you* post a video, *you* make the above statement, and I'm the one being dishonest, huh? You may have an interest in going back to the video *you* posted, and listening to what is said between 3'46" and 3'49".

Let's post it again. Go to the point I'm mentioning.



Come again? The video doesn't say it was proof?

Care to reconsider who is being dishonest here, between the two of us?

I think you owe me an apology, good sir.

My God...

Seriously?

You don't understand?

Seriously?

The "fact" that they "looked like?"

It's not saying they were factually Ukrainian.

It's saying it looks like they were wearing Ukrainian uniforms. Not only is this subjective from satellite imagery, but to me, what would be important, is where the actual location is that was spotted. They don't say.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Do you know what NOTAM is?

The only people at fault for this are the ones that launched the rocket, and the government behind it. No, they don't have to fly that corridor, but when they do, they burn less fuel and fly less. Time is money. And every single airliner that was flying above 32000 feet was flying by the rules.
I have no clue what NOTAM is.

If the airline was following the rules as you say then whomever establishes said rules is at fault. Saving fuel/time at the risk of passengers lives should never be an option. I understand the potential risks that are tied to flying but to fly over a known war zone is simply idiotic. No matter what you say about rules the simple fact is had the airline not put those people in harms way they would be alive right now, or are you arguing otherwise?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

My God...

Seriously?

You don't understand?

Seriously?

The "fact" that they "looked like?"

It's not saying they were factually Ukrainian.

It's saying it looks like they were wearing Ukrainian uniforms. Not only is this subjective from satellite imagery, but to me, what would be important, is where the actual location is that was spotted. They don't say.

No, you are being the blind one here. I wonder if you do it in purpose. I hope not, or else my respect for you would have to appeal to my electronic microscope analogy above.

This whole edifice that this biased narrator is trying to conctruct is, first, based on some unknown source (great!). Then, the source says that *initially* "in all likelihood" it seemed like these were Ukrainian soldiers, then rapidly it gets changed to "they could also be Eastern Ukrainians dressed in similar uniforms." This very important point is then tossed aside and never repeated, while the narrator insists over and over in a very repetitious and hammering way with the "in all likelihood" line and then even briefly switches to tossing around that the evidence that supposedly the Americans have (according to, mind you, one unknown, never named source) "proves this fact" and then the narrator keeps repeating over and over, in dramatic tones of voice, that they were Ukrainian soldiers. Whoa! Where is the "they could be Eastern Ukrainians in similar uniforms"???

Are you this dense? You don't see the bias? The attempt to make of a hypothetical, rapidly dismissed by its own source (unnamed, vague) as the people who *initially* were thought to be *in all likelihood* Ukrainians, a hypothetical that then gets changed to *or maybe Eastern Ukrainians in similar uniforms* (these people all have similar military attire, not so easy to distinguish from satellite imagery), a *proven fact* that these are Ukrainian soldiers - wait, did the satellite imagery look into their pockets and found Ukrainian passports and IDs there???

Dear, the progression of the phrases, the pauses, the emphasis, the repetition... intend to make the listener forget about the "small detail" that the source merely said that these people could be Ukrainian soldiers, or Eastern Ukrainian activists, all in similar uniforms... and only remember the dense, heavy words "in all likelihood... proof... fact... Urkainian soldiers."

If we needed a clear example of intellectual dishonesty, this one wouldn't do... because it is TOO clear.

Like I said, your video clip is UTTER RUBBISH and its intellectual dishonesty (tossing around words like "proof" and "fact" and insisting over and over with what was only an initial *impression* rapidly reversed, as if it were established) is in tune with that of your leader Ron Paul.

You need any more proof? Look at the clip's title: "Whistleblower: Ukrainian troops shot down MH17"

Whoa! A more accurate title would have been: "Former whistleblower journalist for the Iran-Contra scandal claims to have an unnamed source who said soldiers seen in satellite imagery related to MH17 might either be Ukrainians or Eastern Ukrainians in similar uniforms."

How did this get changed to the *affirmation* "Ukrainian troops shot down MH17" :shock:???? And see, even the dramatic "whistleblower" line... the journalist was a whistleblower for a totally different matter - the way it is said, it sounds like he's a whistleblower for this current matter. Wow.

Are you still sustaining that this is not dishonest????
 
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I see the careful choice of words. I also don't see any substantial evidence that the Russian side shot it down.

We still need to wait for more investigation.

This video may or may not have merit. At least I maintain an open mind.

Do you?
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

The Netherlands are going to issue a declaration of war?

To who? Russia? Ukraine? There is no country to declare war upon. If it were only so simple and then again, we are not a superpower. We have to do things in unison with our allies and war is not an option right now IMHO, and I hope it never becomes either an option or a reality. The world is not strong enough to defeat Russia and Russia is not strong enough to defeat the world. All it would achieve is millions of additional deaths.

All we want for now are the bodies and the evidence that is being collected. Most importantly however is the bodies so that they can be returned to their loved ones.
 
I see the careful choice of words. I also don't see any substantial evidence that the Russian side shot it down.

We still need to wait for more investigation.

This video may or may not have merit. At least I maintain an open mind.

Do you?

How can I maintain an open mind *about a video* that says in its title what I mentioned in the edit to the last part of my post above? We may have crossed messages. Please re-read the last part starting with "you want more proof?" where I addressed the title of the video. It is CLEARLY biased to give the impression that it's been established that Ukrainians shot down MH17.

Now, do I know whether or not Ukrainians or pro-Russian separatists shot down the plane? No.

But I wouldn't let a CLEARLY BIASED AND DISHONEST video be my guide.

See the difference?
 
How can I maintain an open mind *about a video* that says in its title what I mentioned in the edit to the last part of my post above? We may have crossed messages. Please re-read the last part starting with "you want more proof?" where I addressed the title of the video. It is CLEARLY biased to give the impression that it's been established that Ukrainians shot down MH17.

Now, do I know whether or not Ukrainians or pro-Russian separatists shot down the plane? No.

But I wouldn't let a CLEARLY BIASED AND DISHONEST video be my guide.

See the difference?

It isn't my guide.

It's another piece of material that has evidence.

Did you follow the attached link and sub-links?
 
It isn't my guide.

It's another piece of material that has evidence.

Did you follow the attached link and sub-links?

No, it doesn't have *evidence.*
It has a second-hand report that a journalist *claims* to have an unnamed source who ambiguously said some soldiers were seen, and their similar uniforms might either be Ukrainian or Eastern Ukrainian.

Is this what you call *evidence*?

I'd call evidence, a piece of a missile to be found in the crash site with the words Made in Russia.... LOL. Or Made in Ukraine if you will.

This ambiguous speculation about similar uniforms is VERY FAR from being evidence.

No, I didn't follow the attached links and sublinks. The video itself made me angry, with its blatant dishonesty.

I'll be happy to go back and explore more... But if it is this same level of rubbish, I won't be happy.

Edit - OK, I went back to your post #630 when you first posted this video, didn't find any links or sublinks there. What are you talking about?
 
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