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Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine [/71]

Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

DA60 said:
Geopolitical implications? A passenger plane flies over a known war zone and gets shot down?

That is not a 'geopolitical implication'...that is either a dumb pilot and/or a dumb air traffic controller (not to excuse those that fired the missile for a second). Would you fly a loaded passenger jet over a known civil war zone where other aircraft had recently been shot down...especially when it is simple to go around it?
Of course not...not unless you were an idiot.
This was a horrible mistake that shall obviously not be repeated.

Most airlines stay away from that region for obvious reasons. And I imagine no airline will go anywhere near that area anytime soon.

End of 'geopolitical implications'...assuming other unforeseen events do not occur.


This is a regional civil war that is none of America's business.
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I'm saying geopolitical implications of the full conflict, not just this incident. You are seriously thinking the Ukraine crisis has no geopolitical implications???????
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Yep, and the pilot, who requested 35K ft. Under the direction of the ATC that told him to fly down at 33K ft. And who knows what else he was told. Kiev hasn't released the ATC communications.
Click to expand...

So what? the SAM Buk launcher has the capability to target a plane up to 72K ft.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Unitedwestand13 said:
russia was pretty quick to retrieve the planes black boxes. will we have to wait 20 years to learn what is on the recorded message, just like we had to wait 20 years for the truth about korean flight 007?
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Or however long Iran had to wait for acknowledgement and apology from the US for their civilian airliner that was shot down? Nobody trusts anybody with the black box. Do you think any parties are beyond tampering with the evidence? There's quite a bit at stake over this whole issue.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Yes, justifiable concerns, but you do realize that 100 billion for the BRICS bank is miniscule, don't you?
Serious sanctions across the energy, financial, and arms trade sectors can seriously damage Russia's economy *immediately* regardless of any BRICS chest thumping.
Click to expand...

Yes, the amount is practically insignificant. But it's the direction of going away from the dollar that matters. The thought is now being discussed more and more. A decade ago it was almost never discussed.

And Russia's economy is resource based.

If America or Europe won't buy Russian resources...I guarantee you other countries will.

Russia, China sign deal to bypass U.S. dollar

Russia, China sign deal to bypass U.S. dollar | Al Jazeera America

Crimea Crisis Pushes Russian Energy to China From Europe

Crimea Crisis Pushes Russian Energy to China From Europe - Bloomberg


And these deals are almost certainly not in dollars...which hurts the petrodollar even more.

Just as America's neighbor Canada is by FAR the largest oil importer of America; there is no reason why China's huge economy could not rely on Russia to provide it's resource needs.


You are free to believe what you wish, but I believe these sanctions will hurt America FAR more then they will hurt Russia.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Yeah, that's what we need in the world right now. You're not in charge of anything are you?
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The people who are in charge seem to be thinking like me, given that both the President of the United States and the United Kingdom Prime Minister are saying similar things.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Hopefully we - and they - have learned from that.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, every generation has to learn from their own mistakes.

I sincerely doubt there will be a nuclear WWIII sponsored by bona fide states. What we'll see is rogue groups and terrorists getting hold of nuclear weapons.
Click to expand...

Possibly, but they would like other alternatives to Armageddon, like chem/bio or dirty bombs.

That's exactly why he might respond to truly crippling sanctions.
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I actually agree if we can get some multi national support, then sanctions to the degree of making it not worth their effort would be effective.

I just don't think this event is a large enough catalyst for us to engage in that yet. You've got to remember that the economy is globally linked now and whatever we do to affect, even someone as remote as Russia affects the whole. Raising prices for energy across Europe and the backlash from that could possibly cause our fragile recovery from the 2008 Recession to go backwards. The stock market is way over valued and the real economy not up-ticking like they project it to be.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
So what? the SAM Buk launcher has the capability to target a plane up to 72K ft.
Click to expand...

The point was, we don't yet know what the ATC's told the pilot because that hasn't been released.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
The people who are in charge seem to be thinking like me, given that both the President of the United States and the United Kingdom Prime Minister are saying similar things.
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Wtf! They were both saying similar things in Feb of 2003, too! No thanks.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

DA60 said:
Yes, the amount is practically insignificant. But it's the direction of going away from the dollar that matters. The thought is now being discussed more and more. A decade ago it was almost never discussed.

And Russia's economy is resource based.

If America or Europe won't buy Russian resources...I guarantee you other countries will.

Russia, China sign deal to bypass U.S. dollar

Russia, China sign deal to bypass U.S. dollar | Al Jazeera America

Crimea Crisis Pushes Russian Energy to China From Europe

Crimea Crisis Pushes Russian Energy to China From Europe - Bloomberg


And these deals are almost certainly not in dollars...which hurts the petrodollar even more.

Just as America's neighbor Canada is by FAR the largest oil importer of America; there is no reason why China's huge economy could not rely on Russia to provide it's resource needs.


You are free to believe what you wish, but I believe these sanctions will hurt America FAR more then they will hurt Russia.
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They would hurt Europe, but America, not so much. Do look up the numbers regarding our trade relationship with Russia as compared to Europe's.

The Russian-China gas deal is being blown out of proportion. It is a very slow, long term, and sluggish deal.

I'm talking about immediate impact.

Russia is still heavily dependent on Europe's purchases, and China can't replace them in short notice. There aren't even enough pipelines for that. The Russia-China deal will only materialize in ways that matter a decade or two from now.

Yes, I don't doubt that the economic order is changing and will eventually favor the BRICS, but I'm talking about the immediate, short-term resolution of the Ukraine crisis.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
I'm saying geopolitical implications of the full conflict, not just this incident. You are seriously thinking the Ukraine crisis has no geopolitical implications???????
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None, no.

Few, yes.

The only reason this conflict could have geopolitical implications is if the major powers overreact to it...which America seems desperate to do.

But there is no way anyone could convince me that a civil war in a small part of Ukraine has - in and of itself - huge geopolitical implications. Or even significant ones. This is a regional problem...nothing more.

And it is their business...no one else's.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
They would hurt Europe, but America, not so much. Do look up the numbers regarding our trade relationship with Russia as compared to Europe's.

The Russian-China gas deal is being blown out of proportion. It is a very slow, long term, and sluggish deal.

I'm talking about immediate impact.

Russia is still heavily dependent on Europe's purchases, and China can't replace them in short notice. There aren't even enough pipelines for that. The Russia-China deal will only materialize in ways that matter a decade or two from now.

Yes, I don't doubt that the economic order is changing and will eventually favor the BRICS, but I'm talking about the immediate, short-term resolution of the Ukraine crisis.
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Okay, immediately then.

Many EU countries completely depend on Russian gas.

Where are they 'immediately' going to get new supplies if the taps are turned off? Like you said, pipelines take time to build? And where do they build them to? Who will fill that huge void?

You honestly think EU leaders of countries whose people will suffer should the Russian gas lines be cut will go along with sanctions?

I don't...not unless they have a political death wish.

'According to the European Commission, the share of Russian natural gas in the member states' domestic gas consumption in 2007 was the following:[3]

Estonia 100%
Finland 100%
Latvia 100%
Lithuania 100%
Slovakia 98%
Bulgaria 92%
Czech Republic 77.6%
Greece 76%
Hungary 60%
Slovenia 52%
Austria 49%
Poland 48.15%
Croatia 37%
Germany 36%
Italy 27%
Romania 27%
France 14%
Belgium 5%'
Russia in the European energy sector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

grip said:
I actually agree if we can get some multi national support, then sanctions to the degree of making it not worth their effort would be effective.

I just don't think this event is a large enough catalyst for us to engage in that yet. You've got to remember that the economy is globally linked now and whatever we do to affect, even someone as remote as Russia affects the whole. Raising prices for energy across Europe and the backlash from that could possibly cause our fragile recovery from the 2008 Recession to go backwards. The stock market is way over valued and the real economy not up-ticking like they project it to be.
Click to expand...

I know, and that's unfortunately why we've been timid.
But the problem is, if we only think about avoiding another recession and pay little attention to the geopolitical consequences of inaction, things might be even worse down the road.

See, international boundaries have been redrawn by force (Crimea). Rogue groups have acquired sophisticated surface to air missile systems and brought down a commercial airliner. These are events that shake up the international order and embolden similar action by other players.

Appeasement like Europe tried before WWII resulted in much bigger catastrophe.

I'm just worried that by fear of another recession we'll set the world on fire.

I'd rather have the recession together with the strengthening of the international order and state of law.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Why does Obama need to respond. This is between Ukraine, eastern Ukraine Russian separatists and Russia. Or are you just so addicted to US interference in every damn thing that happens around the world that you just can't stand to miss a fight?
Click to expand...

Agreed.

Feels like a urinating contest to me.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Montecresto said:
Your point?
Click to expand...

the flight date recorder and cockpit voice recorders, (the black boxes) contains flight data that records up to the moment the plane crashes. that data is highly valuable and often contains information that ATC tapes cannot provide: the planes final moments preserved in flight data.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
I know, and that's unfortunately why we've been timid.
But the problem is, if we only think about avoiding another recession and pay little attention to the geopolitical consequences of inaction, things might be even worse down the road.

See, international boundaries have been redrawn by force (Crimea). Rogue groups have acquired sophisticated surface to air missile systems and brought down a commercial airliner. These are events that shake up the international order and embolden similar action by other players.

Appeasement like Europe tried before WWII resulted in much bigger catastrophe.

I'm just worried that by fear of another recession we'll set the world on fire.

I'd rather have the recession together with the strengthening of the international order and state of law.
Click to expand...

two international wars and a war on terror has poisoned most americans appetite for foreign conflict.

the only thing that will validate us getting involved is a proper declaration of war.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
I know, and that's unfortunately why we've been timid.
But the problem is, if we only think about avoiding another recession and pay little attention to the geopolitical consequences of inaction, things might be even worse down the road.

See, international boundaries have been redrawn by force (Crimea). Rogue groups have acquired sophisticated surface to air missile systems and brought down a commercial airliner. These are events that shake up the international order and embolden similar action by other players.

Appeasement like Europe tried before WWII resulted in much bigger catastrophe.

I'm just worried that by fear of another recession we'll set the world on fire.

I'd rather have the recession together with the strengthening of the international order and state of law.
Click to expand...

I agree with part of this that events of this nature can draw in other countries, but not just one event.

The forces that be (top 1%) fear a Recession of that magnitude even more, because without money (confidence) the financial system would essentially collapse. With nobody getting paid, civilization as we know it would end within months. Even basic services would start to be crippled, as roving gangs brutalized citizens for sustenance, like they do now in other war torn or poverty/crime stricken countries.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

DA60 said:
Okay, immediately then.

Many EU countries completely depend on Russian gas.

Where are they 'immediately' going to get new supplies if the taps are turned off? Like you said, pipelines take time to build? And where do they build them to? Who will fill that huge void?

You honestly think EU leaders of countries whose people will suffer should the Russian gas lines be cut will go along with sanctions?

I don't...not unless they have a political death wish.

'According to the European Commission, the share of Russian natural gas in the member states' domestic gas consumption in 2007 was the following:[3]

Estonia 100%
Finland 100%
Latvia 100%
Lithuania 100%
Slovakia 98%
Bulgaria 92%
Czech Republic 77.6%
Greece 76%
Hungary 60%
Slovenia 52%
Austria 49%
Poland 48.15%
Croatia 37%
Germany 36%
Italy 27%
Romania 27%
France 14%
Belgium 5%'
Russia in the European energy sector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Yes, that's unfortunately the problem, but it would be a matter of who blinks first. Shutting down the pipelines would hurt Europe, sure, but would also hurt Russia, which has a rather narrow economic model, heavily dependent on gas sales. Like McCain said, Russia is a huge gas station. There is a good chance that Russia would blink first since Europe is a lot more diverse economy.

I do favor Europe becoming more energy independent. The United States with the fracking initiative is getting so, with more access to natural gas. In Europe environmental concerns are more of a hindrance. Don't read me wrong, I'm for environmental caution, but I think the world is getting so crazy right now that energy independence should trample these concerns.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

grip said:
I agree with part of this that events of this nature can draw in other countries, but not just one event.

The forces that be (top 1%) fear a Recession of that magnitude even more, because without money (confidence) the financial system would essentially collapse. With nobody getting paid, civilization as we know it would end within months. Even basic services would start to be crippled, as roving gangs brutalized citizens for sustenance, like they do now in other war torn or poverty/crime stricken countries.
Click to expand...

Whoa. I don't think the recession coming out of sanctions against Russia would be *that* bad.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Unitedwestand13 said:
two international wars and a war on terror has poisoned most americans appetite for foreign conflict.

the only thing that will validate us getting involved is a proper declaration of war.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not talking about sending the troops. What I'm proposing a couple of pages back, is truly crippling sanctions against Russia and massive military aid to Ukraine.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Whoa. I don't think the recession coming out of sanctions against Russia would be *that* bad.
Click to expand...


They don't know what the reverberations would be and that's part of what they consider. Nobody saw the 2008 Recession coming, it's was party, party. They won't see the next one coming either, because they don't want to. The world is always precariously positioned to make sudden drastic changes, and that's also the nature of life for us as individuals. We don't see the bullet coming.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Well, I'm not talking about sending the troops. What I'm proposing a couple of pages back, is truly crippling sanctions against Russia and massive military aid to Ukraine.
Click to expand...

i think it is naive to think we are still capable of giving billion dollar amounts of military aid to countries at the drop of a hat.
 
Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

GreatNews2night said:
Yes, that's unfortunately the problem, but it would be a matter of who blinks first. Shutting down the pipelines would hurt Europe, sure, but would also hurt Russia, which has a rather narrow economic model, heavily dependent on gas sales. Like McCain said, Russia is a huge gas station. There is a good chance that Russia would blink first since Europe is a lot more diverse economy.

I do favor Europe becoming more energy independent. The United States with the fracking initiative is getting so, with more access to natural gas. In Europe environmental concerns are more of a hindrance. Don't read me wrong, I'm for environmental caution, but I think the world is getting so crazy right now that energy independence should trample these concerns.
Click to expand...

Well, you are free to believe what you wish.

But Russian's are not going to be cold this winter if Europe shuts the gas pipe down.
But tens of millions of EU citizens might be.

And which group is going to scream louder to their politicians...especially when all the EU politicians have to do is simply not go along with the sanctions to turn the taps back on?

Plus, Russians have done without before in their relatively recent history...EU citizens (especially in the west) have not.

I think the freezing EU families will crack come November long before the somewhat (temporarily) poorer Russians will.


Finally, Putin does not have to run for re-election until 2018...why would he care if he drops in the polls for a year or two while he finds other buyers for his oil/gas?

And as I posted earlier, his numbers are skyrocketing despite the sanctions.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx
 
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Re: Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

Unitedwestand13 said:
i think it is naive to think we are still capable of giving billion dollar amounts of military aid to countries at the drop of a hat.
Click to expand...

Who are "we"? The combined NATO forces are simply huge. If NATO as a whole (the United States plus the major NATO players like the UK, France, Germany, Italy) want to supply Ukraine with tanks and fighter jets, Ukraine could crush the Eastern rebellion in days or weeks.

Provided of course that Russia doesn't interfere... which I think they wouldn't, if NATO showed true resolve - for the sheer fact that NATO outnumbers Russia's military might 6:1. Putin is not suicidal.
 
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