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Judge throws out Florida's congressional map[W:40]

Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

all districts should be drawn federally using only census data. Florida should also have its control over elections suspended until it can demonstrate that it can handle them without playing partisan tricks. the long lines were absolutely shameful, and amount to a poll tax, IMO.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Gerrymandering - the fundamental key to progressiveism. If you can't beat em' draw a line.

Huh? This was a result of a very conservative legislature drawing up the lines. The ballot initiative was put on the ballot and passed due to widespread bi-partisan support.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

But its fair according to the people, so whats the problem? If you drew a square around Jacksonville, a white male would always win and 50% of the voters would always lose ideologically. Democrats wanted a black person so they carved out this odd shape to make sure a black person would win. And now you have a democrat district and a republican district, so the people are happy. Except the judges, who have a different standard of fair.

"The people" passed a ballot initiative with the purpose of removing arbitrary lines drawn to give someone an inherent advantage. Maybe the parties in power either Republican or Democratic or the specific individuals are happy with the outcome but the reason the amendment was passed was to stop stuff like this from happening. There shouldn't be a black district, white district, jewish district, republican district, democratic district etc. It just leads to abuse when drawing the lines and creates safe districts where a person from one party pretty much only has to serve a specific groups interest.

Gerrymandering creates "safe" seats and no seat should be safe.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

"The people" passed a ballot initiative with the purpose of removing arbitrary lines drawn to give someone an inherent advantage. Maybe the parties in power either Republican or Democratic or the specific individuals are happy with the outcome but the reason the amendment was passed was to stop stuff like this from happening. There shouldn't be a black district, white district, jewish district, republican district, democratic district etc. It just leads to abuse when drawing the lines and creates safe districts where a person from one party pretty much only has to serve a specific groups interest.

Gerrymandering creates "safe" seats and no seat should be safe.

Safe can be fair though, as with the african-american district at issue. It ensures an african american represents the african-americans in that district, basically the south side of Jacksonville. It even says that in the law that was passed.

and districts shall not be drawn with the intent or result of denying or abridging the equal opportunity of racial or language minorities to participate in the political process or to diminish their ability to elect representatives of their choice

Im not defending the legality, as the redistricting plan violates the spirit of the law. Rather im exploring the issue.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Safe can be fair though, as with the african-american district at issue. It ensures an african american represents the african-americans in that district, basically the south side of Jacksonville. It even says that in the law that was passed.



Im not defending the legality, as the redistricting plan violates the spirit of the law. Rather im exploring the issue.

Thank you for joining the conversation. And thank you for making some excellent points too.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Safe can be fair though, as with the african-american district at issue. It ensures an african american represents the african-americans in that district, basically the south side of Jacksonville. It even says that in the law that was passed..

That's very true, but there's no doubt it creates multiple seats representing Jacksonville where the black population aren't even a concern. Is one predominately black district better than blacks being a minority in multiple district but large enough that a Representative would have to take their views into consideration in order to win close elections? Are black even better served by creating a long serving incumbent that pretty much has no challenger? It's very difficult to unseat an incumbent in a primary. You generally have low turnout, you have a lot of candidates and the person with more name recognition has an advantage. I can see why Corrine Brown is fighting so hard to have her cushy seat kept safe it's generally people like her...from heavily gerrymandered districts to create a very safe seat, that run into corruption and accountability issues.

Im not defending the legality, as the redistricting plan violates the spirit of the law. Rather im exploring the issue.
I understand, I'm just not a fan of gerrymandering for any reason. When you make exceptions to create black districts...why not Jewish districts in South Florida? Or Hispanics in Tampa? Now you have three large gerrymandered districts drawn to incorporate the interests of those groups and more districts as a result of the gerrymandered districts which have very little diversity of views.

I personally think the elections should be a battle. I hate the idea of someone punching in their time card for any reason
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

That's very true, but there's no doubt it creates multiple seats representing Jacksonville where the black population aren't even a concern. Is one predominately black district better than blacks being a minority in multiple district but large enough that a Representative would have to take their views into consideration in order to win close elections? Are black even better served by creating a long serving incumbent that pretty much has no challenger? It's very difficult to unseat an incumbent in a primary. You generally have low turnout, you have a lot of candidates and the person with more name recognition has an advantage. I can see why Corrine Brown is fighting so hard to have her cushy seat kept safe it's generally people like her...from heavily gerrymandered districts to create a very safe seat, that run into corruption and accountability issues.


I understand, I'm just not a fan of gerrymandering for any reason. When you make exceptions to create black districts...why not Jewish districts in South Florida? Or Hispanics in Tampa? Now you have three large gerrymandered districts drawn to incorporate the interests of those groups and more districts as a result of the gerrymandered districts which have very little diversity of views.

I personally think the elections should be a battle. I hate the idea of someone punching in their time card for any reason

Then the result if you use blind districting is to make it so white males always win, because thats the majority of voters in any given demographic, and people are racist (both races). Jacksonville is 60% white, and 50/50 party and gender, with males voting more often. Then you have issues with rural vs city, where the city will dominate the rural areas, even though they are social separate. So youre just ensuring one group never wins. Kind of like libertarians.

Whereas there are ways to run the election so each significant group gets representation, like in Europe, instead of winner take all (and loser gets nothing).
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

all districts should be drawn federally using only census data. Florida should also have its control over elections suspended until it can demonstrate that it can handle them without playing partisan tricks. the long lines were absolutely shameful, and amount to a poll tax, IMO.

The problem is that we dont follow the constitution on census districts. We stopped adding reps at 435. If we followed the constitution we would have thousand.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

The problem is that we dont follow the constitution on census districts. We stopped adding reps at 435. If we followed the constitution we would have thousand.


Yes we do. "Representation shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand" That means you cant have 2 reps if theres only 30k. BUt you can have as few as congress decides, so long as each state gets one. Currently its about one per 700k. That said, the country is obviously too big for the govt to represent.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

TBO.com | AP Wires

But then Lewis ruled last Friday that the Legislature needed to draw up a new map by Aug. 15 because the judge is considering ordering a special election that relies on the revamped districts.

Weatherford warned that while legislators will approve the new map now, they will fight any move to put it in place this year.

The Wesley Chapel Republican said local election supervisors have already cautioned that implementing a new map now would disrupt this year's elections. He also ruled out holding a special election later this year by noting that groups such as the NAACP have contended that some voters would "be irreparably harmed" if the election was conducted at that time.

Dont know if OP was actually interested in the outcome, or just in criticizing florida/gop, but theres an update. NAACP is not happy about losing their Jacksonville district.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

I seriously think he just assumed it was Democrats doing it. Because Democrats bad.

In 2012, Democrats received 1.4 million more votes in the House of Representatives than Republicans did. Republicans somehow got a 33 seat advantage. You want to tell me it's progressives doing all that terrible gerrymandering?

Which is a misnomer, considering each state has different rules about reporting election results when there is no challenger(Some report 0 votes with no challenger).

Gerrymandering could be solved by letting a computer draw the lines, but since you have to take "race" into the equation, it would never work.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

gerrymandering--the reason for the 17th amendment against the gilded wing of the GOP
Gerrymandering - the reason we have corrupt politicians in charge.

Party has nothing to do with it.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Which is a misnomer, considering each state has different rules about reporting election results when there is no challenger(Some report 0 votes with no challenger).

Gerrymandering could be solved by letting a computer draw the lines, but since you have to take "race" into the equation, it would never work.

Gerrymandering could be solved if we just abolish congressional districts and flipped the house into a parliament and got much much better representation.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Gerrymandering--the reason we have the 17th amendment changing the choice of US Senators.
From being appointed by Gerry-mandered State Bodies controlled in large part by the GOP.
Shame T. Roosevelt gave the Dem progress---ives both the 17th amd 16th amendments.
Gerrymandering - the reason we have corrupt politicians in charge.
Not in the Senate, which cannot be gerry-mandered since the 17th amendment.

Party has nothing to do with it.
It has always had everything to do with party and always will since the Civil War.
If the 17th were gone right now, which the GOP wants, the GOP would have about 60 or so rough estimate Senators without checking closely.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Gerrymandering--the reason we have the 17th amendment changing the choice of US Senators.
From being appointed by Gerry-mandered State Bodies controlled in large part by the GOP.
Shame T. Roosevelt gave the Dem progress---ives both the 17th amd 16th amendments.

Not in the Senate, which cannot be gerry-mandered since the 17th amendment.


It has always had everything to do with party and always will since the Civil War.
If the 17th were gone right now, which the GOP wants, the GOP would have about 60 or so rough estimate Senators without checking closely.
Gerrymandering was done to ensure whichever party did it kept getting senators elected by their majorities in state congresses.

The 17th hasn't stopped gerrymandering, it just blocked it's use in senatorial selection by taking that power away from the states and giving it to the residents of the states.

Gerrymandering still happens plenty in representative elections and state elections, however. And from both parties.

If we only had a reasonable anti-gerrymandering law, we could repeal the 17th and give the states back their senatorial selection power.

I'd never support removal of the 17th without good anti-gerrymandering laws in every state. I doubt many actual conservatives would, either. Or anyone, for that matter, unless they had a vested interest in allowing gerrymandering to lock in senators/parties for decades again.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Gerrymandering was done to ensure whichever party did it kept getting senators elected by their majorities in state congresses.
I see the 17th as done to break the monopoly the GOP had on the Senate, due to statehouse G-M maps.


The 17th hasn't stopped gerrymandering,
It has for Senate elections, as well as seven states with only one Congressman.
Gerrymandering still happens plenty in representative elections and state elections, however. And from both parties.
The GOP owns a 2-to-1 edge in 435 Gerry-Mandered House seats--that is my prime focus.
Texas has 27 GOP Congressman and only 9 Democrats, yet the ratio of GOPs/Dems isn't close to 3-to-1.
This is why Texas has been on the Judicial Watch list since 1990 for GM.
It is certainly about the Voting Rights Law that the GOP keeps treying to gut.
If we only had a reasonable anti-gerrymandering law, we could repeal the 17th and give the states back their Senatorial selection power.
Do you seriously think this current GOP House would vote for an anti-gerrymandering law? :lamo
Putting the fox back in the henhouse would give us the problem over 100 years ago.
I'd never support removal of the 17th without good anti-gerrymandering laws in every state. I doubt many actual conservatives would, either. Or anyone, for that matter, unless they had a vested interest in allowing gerrymandering to lock in senators/parties for decades again.

Conservatives on this site actively work for the repeal of ther 17th amendment, as well as the rest of the Progress--ive era .
 
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Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

I see the 17th as done to break the monopoly the GOP had on the Senate, due to statehouse G-M maps.



It has for Senate elections, as well as seven states with only one Congressman.

The GOP owns a 2-to-1 edge in 435 Gerry-Mandered House seats--that is my prime focus.
Texas has 27 GOP Congressman and only 9 Democrats, yet the ratio of GOPs/Dems isn't close to 3-to-1.
This is why Texas has been on the Judicial Watch list since 1990 for GM.
It is certainly about the Voting Rights Law that the GOP keeps treying to gut.

Do you seriously think this current GOP House would vote for an anti-gerrymandering law? :lamo
Putting the fox back in the henhouse would give us the problem over 100 years ago.


Conservatives on this site actively work for the repeal of ther 17th amendment, as well as the rest of the Progress--ive era .
I can't see any sensible person supporting repeal of the 17th UNLESS good anti-gerrymandering measures are put in place simultaneously or before such a change.

If you claim to be a conservative and support removal of 17th without anti-gerrymandering measures you're actually a GOP-supporting hack, not a conservative. That or you have no scruples when it comes to supporting your political ideology.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

I can't see any sensible person supporting repeal of the 17th UNLESS good anti-gerrymandering measures are put in place simultaneously or before such a change.

If you claim to be a conservative and support removal of 17th without anti-gerrymandering measures you're actually a GOP-supporting hack, not a conservative. That or you have no scruples when it comes to supporting your political ideology.

And again, there is some legitimacy to drawing districts to ensure representation of certain groups. In this florida case, blacks are protesting "fair" redistricting because it will make it harder for them to win (because whites are dominate in any area)
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

I love when the libs decide the founders were wrong, and they are going to fix the Constitution. Just like Obama wanting to fundamentally change it, or ignore it.

Even with the GM, the founders system of the States picking the Congressmen was better. The States lost their voice in the federal government with the 17th amendment. Not good.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Black Democrats in Congress are sharply criticizing their party’s leadership for supporting efforts to overturn the GOP-drawn congressional map in Florida and cut into Republicans’ House majority.
Last week, Congressional Black Caucus Chairwoman Marcia Fudge (D-Ohio) sent a sharply worded letter to Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman Steve Israel (D-N.Y.) complaining about the party’s support for a lawsuit that aims to throw out Florida’s congressional map — changes that could dismantle the gerrymandered seat of CBC member Corrine Brown.


Read more: CBC, DCCC clash over Fla. redistricting suit - Alex Isenstadt - POLITICO.com

See, Dems WANT to keep these gerrymandered districts,
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map


I loved that scene.

I believe he uttered as it floated away,

'South America, take it away!'
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Further update

TALLAHASSEE: Florida House and Senate committees give early approval to fixes to congressional map - Legislature - MiamiHerald.com

The Legislature’s fix drew criticism from the League of Women Voters and Common Cause of Florida, which successfully sued to get the congressional map overturned. They warned that the repairs don’t go far enough to satisfy the court’s concerns and urged them to consider their proposed alternative.

“Map 9057 continues to use a minority-marginalizing relic of an era in which political gerrymandering was acceptable — now it is not,” the groups wrote in a letter to House and Senate leaders.

District 5 “packs an excessive number of African Americans into a district marked by hooks, tentacles and appendages as it snakes through and splits every county from Jacksonville down to Orlando. By packing minorities into such a north-south district, CD 5 in Map 9057 destroys the ability to create an additional district with significant minority voting strength in Central Florida.”

They offered an alternative map that creates a minority district along the east-west corridor of the top of the state and which, they said, will create the opportunity for two blacks to be elected to Congress from north and central Florida instead of one.

The debate continued to strain traditional Democratic alliances. NAACP leaders, who rejected the League’s alternative map, told the Senate Reapportionment Committee that they want to see District 5 preserved.

Whitfield Jenkins, the former president of the Marion County NAACP, said District 5 secures the ability for African-Americans to get elected.

Beverlye Colson Neal, former executive director of the NAACP Florida Conference, said reducing the number of black voters would disenfranchise the same voters. “These voters will be placed in districts where they are outnumbered by whites,” she told the committee. “African Americans are a fragile community and the least bit of disenfranchisement will keep them away from the polls.”

One minority group who originally sued are trying to get more minority districts and other minority groups are complaining that they will lose their existing minority districts. Strange arguments here. If I were black I would be insulted at being taken for granted by democrats.
 
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