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Judge throws out Florida's congressional map[W:40]

Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

how does a total national vote count point to state level gerrymandering?

House seats are based on population and those that get the most votes would normally win, except for gerrymandering.
Take a look at this Florida District, one of the ones being thrown out.

enhanced-buzz-25709-1376604837-17.jpg
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

House seats are based on population and those that get the most votes would normally win, except for gerrymandering.
Take a look at this Florida District, one of the ones being thrown out.

enhanced-buzz-25709-1376604837-17.jpg

you are conflating local election results with a nation vote total.....that's ****ing stupid.

and yes, some gerrymandered districts are ****ing stupid too..... both parties are incredibly guilty of this kind of bull****.


the one you show in Florida is pretty bad.... and the illinois 4th is even worse
il04.jpg
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Top 20 population per district:

Montana
Delaware
South Dakota
Idaho
Oregon
Iowa
Louisiana
Oklahoma
Missouri
Mississippi
North Carolina
New Jersey
Arkansas
Massachusetts
Virginia
Kentucky
Maryland
Ohio
Colorado
Indiana

this doesn't disprove my point.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

It has to be political given the issue is political election districts,

Why? The whole point is it should not be political but administrative. Use the county lines as districts, just as you use state lines for Senators. The county lines usually never change do they?

they are decided by politicians,

It dont have to be....

put in place by the political process.

Ultimately yes as everything else, but the process can be as unpolitical as you want it.

I dont see how to do it otherwise. Take an island with 50% of each party, and 25% minority. How do you create two fair districts?

Split the island in 2 depending on where the population is. Pretty simple. If the population is centered in a major city, then split the city down the middle. It is pretty simple.

-two squares would ensure a crapshoot on parties and no minority ever being able to win

And? How is that the fault of the districting? The problem is two big parties and the inability for other parties to get in.

-a district with mostly one party in each district would ensure each party had representation

That will happen naturally. For example in Denmark everyone knows that certain districts of Copenhagen will most likely vote left, and other areas in the suburbs will vote right. You cant avoid having certain districts vote for one party or another, but what you can avoid is specifically designing those districts so they will always vote for one party or another. Now nothing is ever set in stone as people change their views over time.

-a district with the entire minority in one district would ensure minority representation

Why do "minorities" need representation? I understand it was a problem in the 1960s but now? I thought your country was over its racist past and even if it aint, then getting rid of "minority" districts is the way forward. Some areas will automatically be minority districts, where others wont.. minorities tend to keep together.. even though people tend to deny this on these boards.

Each one is fair depending on your viewpoint. And people will naturally gravitate to communities who agree with them. Which why in florida the panhandle is conservative, and the south is liberal and the center is a mix

Sorry I do not buy that. The political leaning of the area in question is often decided by economics and in the case of the US.. sadly still race. For example, as I pointed out in Copenhagen. The areas that vote left, are the "poorer" traditionally worker class areas. The areas that vote right, are traditionally middle and upper class pro Royalty areas. The districts were not created to favor these populations, as our districts are based on population and geographic criteria. That is why the rural districts tend to vote center right, but the cities/larger towns tend to vote center left. It is just how it is. But what we do is use a commission based on all the political parties plus bureaucrats to maintain the district boundaries and so on. No one party can "build its own" district.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Surely you are joking? The ones that are most into gerrymandering are the right-wing conservatives who can't win a race unless they draw wacky boundaries.

Utter nonsense. Gerrymandering is one of the truly bipartisan acts out there. Every one does it and state otherwise is utter partisan hackery.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Good, I think when it comes to redistricting a simple rule should apply. Counties should remain whole as much as possible. If Florida has 27 congressional districts, no more than 14 counties should have to be divided between districts. All the rest should be able to remain whole.

Damn logic. Clearly you do not work for the government.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Damn logic. Clearly you do not work for the government.

46 years with the government, 20 years active duty military, another 26 working for the army as a DA civilian. But never as a politician. I hope this does not lower your esteem or doom my logic?
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Yes, my state's a political cesspool, not the least surprising.

Sad, really.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Utter nonsense. Gerrymandering is one of the truly bipartisan acts out there. Every one does it and state otherwise is utter partisan hackery.


Just because it is bi-partisan doesn't make it right.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Surely you are joking? The ones that are most into gerrymandering are the right-wing conservatives who can't win a race unless they draw wacky boundaries.

Gerrymandering is done by both parties. The reason it seems that today the republicans do it more is because they have more governors than the democrats and control both chambers of the state legislatures more than the Democrats. Actually since 1930 only 4 times has a party received more congressional votes than the other party and not controlled the House.


There are 24 states that have a Republican Governor and both chambers of the state legislature
13 states that have a Democratic Governor and both chambers of the state legislature
4 states have a Democratic Governor and a Republican controlled legislature
4 states have a Republican Governor and a Democratic controlled legislature
1 state has a Republican Governor and a split state legislature
4 states have a Democratic Governor and a split state legislature.

So only those state with the governor and both chambers of the state legislature in the same parties hands are able to gerrymander.

4 times since 1930, each party was able to maintain control of the House twice even though they received the lesser amount of the total congressional vote.


In 1930 the Republicans won 52.8% of the congressional vote to the Democrats 44.5%, yet the Democrats won the House by the slimmest of margins 218-217

In 1942 the Republicans received 50.7% of the congressional vote to the Democrats 47.0%, but the Democrats continued their control of the House by a 222-209 margin

In 1952 the Democrats won 49.8% of the congressional vote to the Republicans 49.3% but the Republicans gained control of the House from the Democrats by a 221-213 margin.

Then as you point out, in 2012 the Republicans received 47.6% of the congressional votes compared to 48.8% for the Democrats, yet the Republicans maintained control of House.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Why? The whole point is it should not be political but administrative. Use the county lines as districts, just as you use state lines for Senators. The county lines usually never change do they?



It dont have to be....



Ultimately yes as everything else, but the process can be as unpolitical as you want it.



Split the island in 2 depending on where the population is. Pretty simple. If the population is centered in a major city, then split the city down the middle. It is pretty simple.



And? How is that the fault of the districting? The problem is two big parties and the inability for other parties to get in.



That will happen naturally. For example in Denmark everyone knows that certain districts of Copenhagen will most likely vote left, and other areas in the suburbs will vote right. You cant avoid having certain districts vote for one party or another, but what you can avoid is specifically designing those districts so they will always vote for one party or another. Now nothing is ever set in stone as people change their views over time.



Why do "minorities" need representation? I understand it was a problem in the 1960s but now? I thought your country was over its racist past and even if it aint, then getting rid of "minority" districts is the way forward. Some areas will automatically be minority districts, where others wont.. minorities tend to keep together.. even though people tend to deny this on these boards.



Sorry I do not buy that. The political leaning of the area in question is often decided by economics and in the case of the US.. sadly still race. For example, as I pointed out in Copenhagen. The areas that vote left, are the "poorer" traditionally worker class areas. The areas that vote right, are traditionally middle and upper class pro Royalty areas. The districts were not created to favor these populations, as our districts are based on population and geographic criteria. That is why the rural districts tend to vote center right, but the cities/larger towns tend to vote center left. It is just how it is. But what we do is use a commission based on all the political parties plus bureaucrats to maintain the district boundaries and so on. No one party can "build its own" district.

Skipped all the split quotes. I hate them. Races are the ones demanding gerrymandering. This ruling was partly because a black representative had come to an agreement with republican leadership to carve out her district to ensure a black person was represented in congress.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Skipped all the split quotes. I hate them. Races are the ones demanding gerrymandering. This ruling was partly because a black representative had come to an agreement with republican leadership to carve out her district to ensure a black person was represented in congress.

That may be, and in a way knowing how racist the US can be... I understand it.. but both parties and the GOP especially, have abused the system to such a degree that it has gone beyond giving a voice to minorities and is being used to secure future political power.. and that is just wrong. Hence take out the political aspect in districting.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

46 years with the government, 20 years active duty military, another 26 working for the army as a DA civilian. But never as a politician. I hope this does not lower your esteem or doom my logic?

I have 10 years on active myself. I understand completely.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Moderator's Warning:
Don't be a Wannabe Mod. Do it again and you'll receive an infraction. If you think someone has violated the rules then simply report it.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

That may be, and in a way knowing how racist the US can be... I understand it.. but both parties and the GOP especially, have abused the system to such a degree that it has gone beyond giving a voice to minorities and is being used to secure future political power.. and that is just wrong. Hence take out the political aspect in districting.

But its fair according to the people, so whats the problem? If you drew a square around Jacksonville, a white male would always win and 50% of the voters would always lose ideologically. Democrats wanted a black person so they carved out this odd shape to make sure a black person would win. And now you have a democrat district and a republican district, so the people are happy. Except the judges, who have a different standard of fair.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Moderator's Warning:
Don't be a Wannabe Mod. Do it again and you'll receive an infraction. If you think someone has violated the rules then simply report it.


Whatever.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Sooooo, we all agree that this is a good thing, right?
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Gerrymandering - the fundamental key to progressiveism. If you can't beat em' draw a line.

BOTH sides do it. What we need is a simple bit of computer software to set voting district boundaries. Let it throw out a half dozen different proposals for each area and have the appropriate governing body choose which one to accept.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Sooooo, we all agree that this is a good thing, right?

No, I have said that there are valid points to the way the districts are drawn. I think the actual problem is the lack of transparency, the parties making secret deals.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Term limits, it eliminates the need for it, not entirely but largely.

We do have term limits in Florida for the people drawing the districts, thought not tight enough. They just jump branches instead.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

Term limits, it eliminates the need for it, not entirely but largely.
I agree. 2 terms for Senators, and 5 terms for Representatives.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

I agree. 2 terms for Senators, and 5 terms for Representatives.

Thats still too long. One term is enough. Elect reps, they go in for a short session, and go home. This would work best under the govt as limited by the constitution, not the behemoth we have today.
 
Re: Judge throws out Florida's congressional map

We already have term limits, they're called elections.
 
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