• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

Andalublue

Hello again!
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Messages
27,101
Reaction score
12,359
Location
Granada, España
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
BBC News - Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

I'm guessing that US-German relations aren't in such a good state at the moment. The idea that spying on your friends is just business as usual came as a surprise to Angela Merkel.

What should be Germany's next step?

What should the US reaction to this expulsion be? An apology? Or reprisal?
 
BBC News - Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

I'm guessing that US-German relations aren't in such a good state at the moment. The idea that spying on your friends is just business as usual came as a surprise to Angela Merkel.

What should be Germany's next step?

What should the US reaction to this expulsion be? An apology? Or reprisal?
I think at a minimum, an apology.
It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,
and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.
 
BBC News - Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

I'm guessing that US-German relations aren't in such a good state at the moment. The idea that spying on your friends is just business as usual came as a surprise to Angela Merkel.

What should be Germany's next step?

What should the US reaction to this expulsion be? An apology? Or reprisal?

German politicians should explain some facts of life. After all, the US did not sign the treaty allowing American agencies to spy in Germany alone. Both signatures are on the paper. They should also point out how odd it is for Germans to think of themselves as "friends" or even "reliable partners" after the things they have done. You can't trust someone whose behavior patterns have caused you so much harm and been so unpredictable.

The Americans should publish the treaty and demonstrate the extent of German cooperation with American agencies and explain that it is a German legal problem and that the Americans were only doing things that the German government had allowed and often participated in.
 
I think at a minimum, an apology.
It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,

Wont happen. The US apologies almost never to anyone for the crap they pull.

and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.

Far from only this administration. We are still waiting on the apology from Bush about the Iraq war..
 
German politicians should explain some facts of life. After all, the US did not sign the treaty allowing American agencies to spy in Germany alone. Both signatures are on the paper. They should also point out how odd it is for Germans to think of themselves as "friends" or even "reliable partners" after the things they have done. You can't trust someone whose behavior patterns have caused you so much harm and been so unpredictable.

The Americans should publish the treaty and demonstrate the extent of German cooperation with American agencies and explain that it is a German legal problem and that the Americans were only doing things that the German government had allowed and often participated in.

So they Germans signed a treaty that allowed the US to implant a double agent into their inner circle? REALLY?
 
BBC News - Germany expels CIA official in US spy row

I'm guessing that US-German relations aren't in such a good state at the moment. The idea that spying on your friends is just business as usual came as a surprise to Angela Merkel.

What should be Germany's next step?

What should the US reaction to this expulsion be? An apology? Or reprisal?

All the above and a cessation from the activity.
 
I think at a minimum, an apology.
It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,
and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.

You think spying on other countries has ONLY happened with Obama? Puuuuuhlease.

I'd gladly call for the U.S. to apologize to other countries for spying on them if the other countries wern't spying on us as well.
 
German politicians should explain some facts of life. After all, the US did not sign the treaty allowing American agencies to spy in Germany alone. Both signatures are on the paper.
I don't believe any such treaty exists. You got a source?

They should also point out how odd it is for Germans to think of themselves as "friends" or even "reliable partners" after the things they have done. You can't trust someone whose behavior patterns have caused you so much harm and been so unpredictable.
Germany has been and is an excellent friend and reliable partner, just not a lap-dog, like the UK. You can have disagreements with friends and partners while respecting their national integrity. Not a difficult concept.

The Americans should publish the treaty and demonstrate the extent of German cooperation with American agencies and explain that it is a German legal problem and that the Americans were only doing things that the German government had allowed and often participated in.
Can you back this up with any evidence of the Germans allowing this?
 
I think at a minimum, an apology.
It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,
and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.

Very first response, a partisan response. Do you think Obama has recoiled from apologizing for US wrong doing before? In fact, when did Bush ever apologize, or any other republican president? It's time for new FP approach for America, both parties having injured the US image.
 
German politicians should explain some facts of life. After all, the US did not sign the treaty allowing American agencies to spy in Germany alone. Both signatures are on the paper.
Perhaps you can show us where did the Germans agree for the US to spy on thier government on their soil.

They should also point out how odd it is for Germans to think of themselves as "friends" or even "reliable partners" after the things they have done. You can't trust someone whose behavior patterns have caused you so much harm and been so unpredictable.
Can you offer some of the examples you are referring to?
 
I think at a minimum, an apology.
It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,
and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.

As far as I can tell, the US has nothing or very little to apologize for. According to non contradicted statements here in Germany the German chancellery signed a contract with the US allowing US agencies to do intelligence work in protection of the forces and US interests, when Steinmeier (now Secretary of State) was running it. This seems to include all recent activities. Furthermore, according to Snowden the German intelligence agency (BND) worked closely with NSA, felicitated access to data on German nationals in Germany and received forbidden fruit information back from the Americans to avoid themselves breaking their statutes. It seems the German government used such information routinely. If the Government allowed all this to go on and helped the Americans and used the intelligence, the Americans are not the ones to excuse themselves.
 
I think at a minimum, an apology.
It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,
and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.

That's...interesting. So do you propose that every living ex-President come forward and publicly apologize to every friend and ally we've spied on?
 
That's...interesting. So do you propose that every living ex-President come forward and publicly apologize to every friend and ally we've spied on?

Actually Obama has done a pretty good job of apologizing for all of them.
 
(1) Perhaps you can show us where did the Germans agree for the US to spy on thier government on their soil.

(2) Can you offer some of the examples you are referring to?

(1) The only thing I have quickly at hand is this interview in a quite solid German Newspaper. I have seen more, but would have to look for it and scan it.
Historiker Foschepoth im Interview: "Die USA dürfen Merkel überwachen" | ZEIT ONLINE
This interview was not to my knowledge contradicted and, though, it is treated back burner there have been a few mentions even on DLF, a public station in the last couple of days.

(2) The incidence go way back and have become worse and more frequent.
- During the Cold War the German government supported Eastern countries financially and made the export of large amounts of energy from Russia possible. The funds helped the Soviets prolong their reign, maintain their weapons development and deployment longer and raised the total costs of the Cold War for everyone else.
- One such incident was the scandal that became known as Auschwitz in the Sand. At that time a German company was building a chemical weapons factory for Qaddafi. American intelligence found this out and asked Kohl (then Chancellor) to abide by the law and put an end to the project. The Americans kept asking for action for 2 years and finally went public. The reaction from Kohl was nasty, anti American and loud, demanding "gerichtsfähige Beweise" (proof that would stand up in court. After five days of shouting Germany went into a cooling period and the export and contracting was stopped.
- Much against the expressed warnings of the White House Genscher weighed in on the side of the separatists in Yugoslavia and helped ignite the revolt that brought the ethnic cleansing that forced the US to intervene.
- Germany was instrumental in inviting Turkey into the EU. When, after the Turks had expended enormous political capital on harmonizing to EU demands, Germany told the Turks (in spite of the warnings from Washington of the anger this would cause in Turkey) that they were no longer wanted as members, though, they did not stop the entry process. This has angered the population that feels slighted and to a degree pushed the country in the way of Islamism. This is a project yet developing.
- German companies are widely admitted to have exported the technology to build chemical weapons to Syria. These exports had to be allowed by government.
- Germany sold crucial instruments that made the Iranian nuclear program possible.
- When Saddam was resisting the Security Council demand he show what had become of the WMD that the UN inspectors had seen before 1995 he was supported by Schröder (then Chancellor) combined with Putin and Chirac, who left him with the impression that the UN would not be able to use the force implied in resolution 1441 (number out of memory) as two of the triplet were veto members. He also was able to believe that there would not be a further resolution so that Bush would be unable to follow up his ultimatum in his speech before the General Assembly. This was all the more so as two major powers in NATO were loudly taking action to prevent force. It was widely held at the time that Chirac would have taken France out of the equation, when most of the EU members signed a letter in support of intervention, but could not risk loosing face, which Schröder's persistence would have meant. Schröder, of course, had to go on, as he had whipped the voters into a rage (which still persists and is part of the problem we see today) against Bush's policy in order to get the votes he needed in the general election. This left Saddam with the impression he could continue to play his game. Simple aplied game theory at work.
- In Afghanistan Germany grabbed a then quiet area for stationing. At the time it was openly discussed that this was to avoid casualties, a point that later caused friction with die smaller countries like Holland. The major job the German contingent signed up for was to train the police force. They did nothing for years. The reasons given here in Germany were that it was too dangerous to send police officers from Germany, there was no legal method to recruit officers, the few officers to go were not allowed to accompany the trainees into dangerous areas.... Finely the US was forced to shoulder a good part of the program and the Germans helped. The program was way behind scheduled by that time and the numbers of police hardly reached the crucial level and much too late, allowing criminal activities to dig in and leaving a security deficit that continues to this day.

There is more, but that must suffice.
 
I don't believe any such treaty exists. You got a source?

Germany has been and is an excellent friend and reliable partner, just not a lap-dog, like the UK. You can have disagreements with friends and partners while respecting their national integrity. Not a difficult concept.

Can you back this up with any evidence of the Germans allowing this?

Sorry. I saw your input late and answered prometeus below.
 
So they Germans signed a treaty that allowed the US to implant a double agent into their inner circle? REALLY?

No. That is not what I said, though, the way you respond is typical. But read the interview in Die Zeit. That should allow you to find more in the internet.
 
I don't believe any such treaty exists. You got a source?

Germany has been and is an excellent friend and reliable partner, just not a lap-dog, like the UK. You can have disagreements with friends and partners while respecting their national integrity. Not a difficult concept.

Can you back this up with any evidence of the Germans allowing this?
Perhaps you can show us where did the Germans agree for the US to spy on thier government on their soil.

Can you offer some of the examples you are referring to?

I gotta back joG up on this one. I may not know much about the subject but his source in post #15 seems to check out. I speak German but you can run it through the translator. Essentially there does exist a contract that was made after WWII in the early 50's as part of the cold war, as West Germany / East Germany was one of the main front-lines of the cold war.

While it may still technically be allowed under an archaic contract, it shouldn't be.

So they Germans signed a treaty that allowed the US to implant a double agent into their inner circle? REALLY?

Same as above for you as well, but more specifically from the article in post #15 (paraphrased) "While the contract didn't give express permission to spy on top German politicians, there's not actually anything to forbid it and a whole lot that allows general spying"
 
No. That is not what I said, though, the way you respond is typical. But read the interview in Die Zeit. That should allow you to find more in the internet.

The issue is that they found a double agent in their spy agency/military and you bring in something about treaties and the Germans being hypocrites.. so I ask again, what does an intelligence sharing treaty have to do with the Americans planting a spy in the German government?
 
The issue is that they found a double agent in their spy agency/military and you bring in something about treaties and the Germans being hypocrites.. so I ask again, what does an intelligence sharing treaty have to do with the Americans planting a spy in the German government?

If a government allows spying and does not make precise, where it is not allowed, then that party to the contract did a lousy job. That is not atypical for European treaties and contracts as anyone who knows the Maastricht/Lisbon mess knows. From what I understand, however, the contract has a do what it takes clause and that takes any legal argument from the table. IT also makes the populist way the thing it being worked by German media and politicians rather irresponsible. This is especially the case, where the BND was making data accessible for mining, helping NSA and using the intelligence it itself was forbidden to generate after receiving it from NSA.

Having said that, it would be irresponsible of the Americans not to spy on such a dangerous loos cannon as Germany has been.
 
If a government allows spying and does not make precise, where it is not allowed, then that party to the contract did a lousy job. That is not atypical for European treaties and contracts as anyone who knows the Maastricht/Lisbon mess knows. From what I understand, however, the contract has a do what it takes clause and that takes any legal argument from the table. IT also makes the populist way the thing it being worked by German media and politicians rather irresponsible. This is especially the case, where the BND was making data accessible for mining, helping NSA and using the intelligence it itself was forbidden to generate after receiving it from NSA.

Having said that, it would be irresponsible of the Americans not to spy on such a dangerous loos cannon as Germany has been.

So you are telling me that because of a cold war treaty, during a time when West Germany jumped when the US/UK said it should.. then in 2014 the US has a right and blessing by the German government to spy on the German government and implant spies regardless of the fact that the agreement was to prevent East German/Russian spies from infiltrating the fragile German democracy?

Is that really your excuse and the excuse of all the US apologists when defending their illegalities in other countries? Seriously?
 
So you are telling me that because of a cold war treaty, during a time when West Germany jumped when the US/UK said it should.. then in 2014 the US has a right and blessing by the German government to spy on the German government and implant spies regardless of the fact that the agreement was to prevent East German/Russian spies from infiltrating the fragile German democracy?

Is that really your excuse and the excuse of all the US apologists when defending their illegalities in other countries? Seriously?

I reread, what I wrote and don't think I said that. Of course, a contract would be valid in the case you describe, if it remained uncanceled. But I had not understood it to be that old.
 
I think at a minimum, an apology.
It will not come, because that would be an admission they did something wrong,
and I think that is beyond the capability of this administration.

First you guys whine and bitch about how obama is weak because he goes on apology tours and now you are whining and bitching because you don't think he has the ability to apologize. Make up your mind folks and let's try to get some consistency in all the obama derangement syndrome tantrums.
 
If a government allows spying and does not make precise, where it is not allowed, then that party to the contract did a lousy job. That is not atypical for European treaties and contracts as anyone who knows the Maastricht/Lisbon mess knows. From what I understand, however, the contract has a do what it takes clause and that takes any legal argument from the table. IT also makes the populist way the thing it being worked by German media and politicians rather irresponsible. This is especially the case, where the BND was making data accessible for mining, helping NSA and using the intelligence it itself was forbidden to generate after receiving it from NSA.

Having said that, it would be irresponsible of the Americans not to spy on such a dangerous loos cannon as Germany has been.

It is not Germany which has been the 'loose cannon', and the US has already been caught listening in on Merkel's private calls anyway.

I don't know what Obama would do with any information he get's from the upper levels of the German government but he wouldn't be acting on any information he receives for America's advantage.
 
Back
Top Bottom