• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Protesters block buses carrying undocumented immigrants in California

JasperL said:
The illegal employers who are providing the draw for them being here, or the illegal aliens?
Click to expand...

this is a strawman. it has nothing to do with what i said or even comes close, but typical when you can't support the argument.

As I said, I'm for enforcing our border AND interior enforcement. Sheesh, the reason the GOP really, really wants amnesty, same as democrats, is cheap foreign labor is good for business. If you want to do some good as a movement, that's the place where we can make real progress. I've heard of people trying to work in Germany for example. You can't GIVE A SPEECH there without a work permit, can't get paid 5 cents. And it's enforced.

Here, I can get in my car, drive to the first nice neighborhood, and I'll find a dozen employers of illegals in that neighborhood. As many illegal employers as there are yard crews, most likely. You know what - I don't blame the people mowing lawns and getting paid low wages. I blame the employers who make money off their labor, and who are why that guy mowing lawns is here.
Click to expand...

evidently no one is enforcing anything otherwise in just several months we wouldn't have gotten 250k plus illegals in centers around the US.

i don't know very many GOP that want amnesty in fact they have sided against amnesty time and time again and a big reason why obama can't get his immagration bill pushed through.
 
JasperL said:
If you want to have a civil discussion, you might not brush 12 million with the crimes of a few. We've got a few native born gang bangers and these kids are in many cases FLEEING gangs. And all these people are getting screened - we're not moving known gang bangers into houses in Idaho.
Click to expand...


Many of them ARE in Gangs and specifically their tied into the Central American Gang MS13.

And sorry, I'm not particularly confident in this administrations abilities to " Screen " anyone let alone Hundreds of thousands of Central American illegal aliens.

The Obama administration lies....ALLOT.

Many of these kids are unaccompanied minors, with no family here and that means they're prime candidates for the already existing street gangs.
 
"I hate the government but I love the lines they draw in the sand."
 
JasperL said:
What advantage is it to him to overwhelm the system? So he can harden the position of the GOP and make any immigration bill so toxic that nothing can pass for a generation? That's how this crisis is unfolding for Obama now. If he's playing 11 dimensional chess by ginning up a crisis, it's failing miserably to help him get to his goals.

If he was smart, he'd want a peaceful, stable border. Same reason when Bush decided to push for 'reform' he decided to crack down on the border, not open it up. That's what a cynical politician does, then when the amnesty passes, THAT is when you cut ICE by half if you want to bring down the U.S. of A. and make it into a third world state so Obama becomes dictator for life, etc.
Click to expand...
It's no advantage for Barrack Obama to personally overwhelm the system, he's made no matter what happens. But we are talking ideology here from a "Community Organizer's" perspective. It seems to me that everyone is being critical of him for different reasons, even his most ardent leftist supporters, but few have realized that he is doing this deliberately, which is Occam's Razor at play.

Forget about George Bush. This is an entirely different game that's being played and it should be understood that it's not about Republican or Democrat anymore, it's about America's future and how people of different political points of view want to change it. They feel they are doing it for the world's good, but it should be understood that BHO wasn't kidding about Change..

Obama's agenda: Overwhelm the system | Las Vegas Review-Journal

Cloward
 
JasperL said:
I don't get it either. Obama isn't up for election, so which Congressmen or women from which states are more likely to win elections if there is a bunch of children from S. America coming across the border?
Click to expand...

:shock:

People can't be this obtuse.

Immigration Reform is going to be the issue this election cycle. This invasion has clearly been planned to bring this issue to the forefront. It will be a Democratic Party talking point, and it has the added benefit of sweeping all the outrageous controversies off the front pages.
 
JasperL said:
I followed the link. They did in fact issue this request. Can you explain why this is somehow suspicious? I checked and ICE has been apprehending UAC (unaccompanied alien children) at the border for quite some time, years and years, about 20,000 per year from 09-12, and 30,000 in FY 13. Many of those are still here in custody, and need transportation AND housing, etc. as their cases wind through the system. So what's unusual about a contract to deal with an existing problem, that admittedly got worse in 2014, and which they probably anticipated would get worse, given deteriorating conditions in S. America?

BTW, the RFP says, and I quote, "There will be approximately 65,000 UAC in total: 25% local ground transport, 25% via ICE charter and 50% via commercial air." That's poorly written and therefore unclear, but seems to imply a TOTAL number in custody needing transportation of 65k. We'll exceed that easily based on current rates. It could be referring to an estimated 65,000 total trips, which doesn't seem very high, given each UAC in custody could require up to a half dozen different trips per year. Border > temp detention > long term > court > back to detention > transport to permanent home or back to S. America. Etc.

Anyway, I need you to explain why this RFP is somehow proof Obama planned this whole thing.
Click to expand...


You need a lot more than that. Blinders removed, objectivity transfusion, etc..

Do you think that ad was placed on some whim? How many months of discussions and meeting took place before they actually came up with a standard protocol for a contractor to follow. What sign offs took place before the ad was posted? Since the ad involved the very agencies dealing with the issue right now, do you think they had some discussion regarding what to do to house all these people? Do you think there was some discussion about the impact on operating budgets given the massive increase in the number of invaders?

If you learned 30 people you didn't know were coming to live with you, whether you liked it or not, would you start building a new room addition, or do something to stop them from coming?

There is nothing I can do to persuade someone who is so completely off the rails, all logic and rational thought have disappeared.
 
JasperL said:
If you want to have a civil discussion, you might not brush 12 million with the crimes of a few. We've got a few native born gang bangers and these kids are in many cases FLEEING gangs. And all these people are getting screened - we're not moving known gang bangers into houses in Idaho.
Click to expand...

Jasper, every one of those 12 + million are have committed a crime as their first act in the US.

They are not getting screened. Rather they are being released to family or other guardians while awaiting screening. Prior to this crisis, the show up rate for those released pending hearing is was less than 10%. There is every reason to believe that the rate will be less for the current illegals.
 
ocean515 said:
:shock:

People can't be this obtuse.

Immigration Reform is going to be the issue this election cycle. This invasion has clearly been planned to bring this issue to the forefront. It will be a Democratic Party talking point, and it has the added benefit of sweeping all the outrageous controversies off the front pages.
Click to expand...

How can the Democrats possibly believe that the talking point will be in their favor?

If the Republicans are smart, and I'm not saying they are, they will do a takeoff on Newts contract with America, and develop a contract on America, and list all the failures of the current administration. Keep them all on the front pages.
 
ocean515 said:
You need a lot more than that. Blinders removed, objectivity transfusion, etc..

Do you think that ad was placed on some whim? How many months of discussions and meeting took place before they actually came up with a standard protocol for a contractor to follow. What sign offs took place before the ad was posted? Since the ad involved the very agencies dealing with the issue right now, do you think they had some discussion regarding what to do to house all these people? Do you think there was some discussion about the impact on operating budgets given the massive increase in the number of invaders?

If you learned 30 people you didn't know were coming to live with you, whether you liked it or not, would you start building a new room addition, or do something to stop them from coming?

There is nothing I can do to persuade someone who is so completely off the rails, all logic and rational thought have disappeared.
Click to expand...

Excellent post! :thumbs: I like it that you put it on a personal level - good analogy - because it will become personal for many people, like it or not! Planned chaos to further an agenda will have repercussions, and were already seeing how people react to that...they don't approve! American people, for the most part, are good-hearted and generous, but don't push us too far! This is our Country first, and we pay the taxes that keep it functioning, so we do have a say in things! The sooner DC understands that simple fact, the better off we'll all be. :2mad:

Good morning, ocean515. :2wave:
 
jimbo said:
They are not getting screened. Rather they are being released to family or other guardians while awaiting screening.
Click to expand...

The HHS site on Unaccompanied Children Frequently Asked Questions says the following:

When children come into the Department of Health and Human Services program, they are given a well-child exam and given all needed childhood vaccinations to protect against communicable diseases. They are also screened for tuberculosis, and receive a mental health exam. If children are determined to have any communicable disease or have been exposed to a communicable disease, they are placed in a program or facility that has the capacity to quarantine. If they have mental health problems, they are similarly placed in a specialized facility to meet their needs and not in a temporary shelter.
Unaccompanied Children Frequently Asked Questions | Administration for Children and Families
Click to expand...
 
jimbo said:
How can the Democrats possibly believe that the talking point will be in their favor?

If the Republicans are smart, and I'm not saying they are, they will do a takeoff on Newts contract with America, and develop a contract on America, and list all the failures of the current administration. Keep them all on the front pages.
Click to expand...

If previous voting demographics are an indicator, Democrats need the Latino vote in order to achieve their objectives. Recent election cycles have shown that voting block was not turning out. Who benefits from "vote for us and we'll make people legal".

I certainly don't know what the Republican strategy will be, but your suggestion should be part of that plan.
 
polgara said:
Excellent post! :thumbs: I like it that you put it on a personal level - good analogy - because it will become personal for many people, like it or not! Planned chaos to further an agenda will have repercussions, and were already seeing how people react to that...they don't approve! American people, for the most part, are good-hearted and generous, but don't push us too far! This is our Country first, and we pay the taxes that keep it functioning, so we do have a say in things! The sooner DC understands that simple fact, the better off we'll all be. :2mad:

Good morning, ocean515. :2wave:
Click to expand...

Good morning Polgara

You know, I guess I should add, "If you knew months and months in advance, that 30 people were coming to live with you...."

I agree with you that American people can be pushed only so far. This administration is housing illegal aliens on military bases, while allowing veterans to live on the streets.

I think the Progressive leaders may have misplayed this plan they have orchestrated, provided legal citizens make their disgust known. With buses blocked, and the activists exposed for what they are, it's possible that is happening.
 
29A said:
The HHS site on Unaccompanied Children Frequently Asked Questions says the following:
Click to expand...

They may be screening for health problems. I know that is the official position. I'm not sure whether they are being sent to the holding centers after health screening or not. None are being screened for legal purposes. Or for criminal activity.

I hope you are correct, but I don't trust this administration. The last thing we need in this country is an epidemic of diseases that we have eradicated in the US. The next to last thing we need is an epidemic of illegal anchor kids with no skills bringing the rest of the family, also with no skills, here.
 
ocean515 said:
:shock:

People can't be this obtuse.

Immigration Reform is going to be the issue this election cycle. This invasion has clearly been planned to bring this issue to the forefront. It will be a Democratic Party talking point, and it has the added benefit of sweeping all the outrageous controversies off the front pages.
Click to expand...

I agree, conservatives can't be this obtuse. Obama isn't up for reelection, so which Senator's campaign is glad to see the border is now a CRISIS??

Your idea is Democrats in a red or purple state WANT to run on immigration reform this year, and would prefer the border be the scene of protests and GOPers running ads about an INVASION of diseased gang bangers coming her to take your jobs? And that these same democrats appealing to independents want a crisis instead of being able to run on a record (which is true) that shows illegal immigration into this country hasn't been this low over a period of five years (a net of ZERO), since the 1980s, and after net illegal movement was 500k/year from 1990-2008?

And what this also MUST mean, of course, is the campaigns of Republicans running for office in competitive races would like to get the border OFF the news? And that's why right wing outlets like Breitbart run a picture of a shirt, and call it a Muslim prayer rug found at the border!!! To help democrats get elected....... right.....

The corporate rear kissing republicans want to vote for immigration reform. Six months ago, if Boehner allowed a vote on immigration reform, it would have passed. This latest freakout has made the issue toxic waste to any GOPer, and I'd bet my last 5 cents it will never come up for a vote in the House, and is dead.

The demand from right wingers has always been to secure the border first, THEN deal with the 12 million already here. So what you're saying is the way to get immigration reform passed is to demonstrate that the border is porous, for Obama to face months of relentless talk about 'INVASION!' of people with disease, gang members, etc. and otherwise get the right wing base wound up into a frenzy about it?
 
JasperL said:
I agree, conservatives can't be this obtuse. Obama isn't up for reelection, so which Senator's campaign is glad to see the border is now a CRISIS??

Your idea is Democrats in a red or purple state WANT to run on immigration reform this year, and would prefer the border be the scene of protests and GOPers running ads about an INVASION of diseased gang bangers coming her to take your jobs? And that these same democrats appealing to independents want a crisis instead of being able to run on a record (which is true) that shows illegal immigration into this country hasn't been this low over a period of five years (a net of ZERO), since the 1980s, and after net illegal movement was 500k/year from 1990-2008?

And what this also MUST mean, of course, is the campaigns of Republicans running for office in competitive races would like to get the border OFF the news? And that's why right wing outlets like Breitbart run a picture of a shirt, and call it a Muslim prayer rug found at the border!!! To help democrats get elected....... right.....

The corporate rear kissing republicans want to vote for immigration reform. Six months ago, if Boehner allowed a vote on immigration reform, it would have passed. This latest freakout has made the issue toxic waste to any GOPer, and I'd bet my last 5 cents it will never come up for a vote in the House, and is dead.

The demand from right wingers has always been to secure the border first, THEN deal with the 12 million already here. So what you're saying is the way to get immigration reform passed is to demonstrate that the border is porous, for Obama to face months of relentless talk about 'INVASION!' of people with disease, gang members, etc. and otherwise get the right wing base wound up into a frenzy about it?
Click to expand...


What we saw in the Reagan administration was that a promise of increased border security would come along with amnesty for those here at the time, and Reagan took demo's word that they would follow through with their promises to get that done, when in the end it was a lie from demo's, and we got the amnesty and no border security.

Why is it so bad to learn that these "comprehensive" plans don't work, and therefore we should address these big problems by addressing their separate aspects first?
 
j-mac said:
What we saw in the Reagan administration was that a promise of increased border security would come along with amnesty for those here at the time, and Reagan took demo's word that they would follow through with their promises to get that done, when in the end it was a lie from demo's, and we got the amnesty and no border security.

Why is it so bad to learn that these "comprehensive" plans don't work, and therefore we should address these big problems by addressing their separate aspects first?
Click to expand...

Then why didn't any subsequent republican congress deliver the border security that we need. Face the facts j, no president, congress or party has ever secured our southern border, and none ever will.
 
Montecresto said:
Then why didn't any subsequent republican congress deliver the border security that we need. Face the facts j, no president, congress or party has ever secured our southern border, and none ever will.
Click to expand...

I personally don't think they'll be left with a choice soon given the financial straights we will soon find ourselves in should this 'open borders' crap continue.
 
j-mac said:
I personally don't think they'll be left with a choice soon given the financial straights we will soon find ourselves in should this 'open borders' crap continue.
Click to expand...

Well we can only hope you're right. This is so beneficial however to big business, I'm not hopeful.
 
j-mac said:
This is why we need politicians with spines, and honesty right now!
Click to expand...

Not just right now dude, we needed it yesterday (didn't get it) and well need it tomorrow and likely won't get it either. Our border woes are systemic policy failures for America, but a success for big business. It depends on where one sets. At any rate, our border problem isn't a democratic or republican problem, its an American problem that is in conflict with the interests of big business and globalisation. I suppose it feels goodfor those people who seek to minimise it by blaming it all on Obama.
 
Montecresto said:
Not just right now dude, we needed it yesterday (didn't get it) and well need it tomorrow and likely won't get it either. Our border woes are systemic policy failures for America, but a success for big business. It depends on where one sets. At any rate, our border problem isn't a democratic or republican problem, its an American problem that is in conflict with the interests of big business and globalisation. I suppose it feels goodfor those people who seek to minimise it by blaming it all on Obama.
Click to expand...

Is that all you got? Is to throw up your hands, and whine that poor Obama gets blamed for stuff? Good Grief. :doh
 
j-mac said:
Is that all you got? Is to throw up your hands, and whine that poor Obama gets blamed for stuff? Good Grief. :doh
Click to expand...

What makes you think I'm throwing my hands up. I'm still here trying. Having the border problems, decades old as they are, blamed on Obama doesn't hurt my feelings, I'm very displeased with him, much as the majority of Americans are, as evidenced in his performance polls. But blaming this all on Obama is hilarious, only if it didn't mean that we will continue to have unsecured borders in the future because of it.
 
ocean515 said:
:shock:

People can't be this obtuse.

Immigration Reform is going to be the issue this election cycle. This invasion has clearly been planned to bring this issue to the forefront. It will be a Democratic Party talking point, and it has the added benefit of sweeping all the outrageous controversies off the front pages.
Click to expand...

The War on Women slogan will be adapted to become The War on Women, Children and the Poor.
 
Grant said:
The War on Women slogan will be adapted to become The War on Women, Children and the Poor.
Click to expand...

and how will the GOP respond to that
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom