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Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge[W:513,870]

Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

So does that religious group that doesn't do doctors get to skip health insurance completely since they believe god should decide who lives and dies?

No.

The ruling is pretty clear that it only applies to the contraceptive mandate. Did you happen to read the ruling?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

No, it didn't deal with abortifacients. Read the opinion. It dealt with contraception. And any company that wants to deny coverage for any/all of the options can do so under the HL ruling.

And no, poor women can't get what they can't afford. If you don't care, fine, but you can't pretend not paying for something that can easily run $1,000 a year for some options has no effect on access to that drug/device.

A number of people have posted to the effect that this ruling opens all sorts of doors for business leaders to deny employees various things on the basis of religious beliefs. But the ruling says clearly that business leaders won't be able to do that in cases where the government has a compelling interest in enforcement of a provision of the law despite religious objections as long as the law is the least restrictive on religious practice possible. That forecloses the possiblity of many of the horribles raised by left wingers.

In addition, the court also said that people who work for businesses that object to contraceptives can get contraceptives from the government through a plan set up by HHS for non-profit religious organizations.

Poor women will get contraception from where they have always gotten it -- planned parenthood and other similar organizations. Or they should be able to get it through Medicaid in which case employment doesn't matter.

Left wingers have a hard time explaining why this ruling is such a bad thing without lying about it or distorting it. It doesn't deny anyone any rights. It in all likelyhood won't cost anyone anything. It won't have much of an effect on the ACA. It will only affect employees of closely held corporations in which the owners are a small, homogenous group with shared religious beliefs and who all object to paying for certain medical expenses. I seriously doubt that all religious objections will be a slam dunk, either. Jehovah's Witnesses might object to blood transfusions but I'm betting that they won't be able to refuse to pay for them through employee insurance because the government will claim a compelling interest in keeping people alive in the case of accidents, etc., without unduly burdening hospitals with the expense of transfusions that the accident victim can't pay for.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

No.

The ruling is pretty clear that it only applies to the contraceptive mandate. Did you happen to read the ruling?

It's not a very big stretch to get from this ruling to there though. Refusal of an employer to contribute to/offer benefits which can only be used for something against their religious beliefs.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

It's not a very big stretch to get from this ruling to there though. Refusal of an employer to contribute to/offer benefits which can only be used for something against their religious beliefs.

You need to keep in mind that this whole issue stems from a government mandate that employers provide not only a wage but certain other benefits to their employees. That was a HUGE overreach of federal authority. What this current ruling does is merely claw back a thin slice of of individual liberty.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

I already pointed it out. Aside from the fact that this isn't any mainstream religious belief we're talking about, there is no religious directive from God to the effect of "Thou shalt not pay for modern medical treatment". The belief that using doctors demonstrates a lack of faith isn't equivalent to a conflict of conscience regarding providing medical care for others. You aren't responsible for their faith. The argument wont' fly. With abortion drugs, you are complicit in murder. The difference is not slight. It's great gulf that can't be bridged with specious arguments.

That is YOUR interpretation of scripture. Are you seriously advocating that the SCOTUS ought to decide what is valid scripture interpretation, and that which is not? Based on popularity of the interpretation?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

The point was there were and are good reasons to make access to contraceptives 'free,' (although these women work for their benefits, same way they work for all the other health benefits they earn on the job) same as routine medical visits, wellness visits. Instead of addressing them, you pretend they don't exist and assert that including them for 'free' in medical plans was some kind of liberal plot to anger religious conservatives. There is a ton of research on copays and what if finds is even small ones have significant effects on use, which is why the last two plans I've been in cover (pre-ACA) routine physicals for 'free' - that eliminates a big obstacle to people getting them, and insurers WANT patients to get an annual physical. The medical community WANTED women to have the easiest possible access to contraception to reduce unwanted pregnancies.

And, yes, people take religion seriously, and people take health issues seriously. There is a conflict between them in this case, not the biggest one of all time, but important enough for the SC to concede the state had a compelling interest to provide access for free, and to rule in favor of HL in large part because this important issue could be resolved without the employer mandate on that one narrow part of the ACA baseline package.

The Court's point about access to free contraceptives was that there are ways to provide free contraceptives that don't step on religious toes. But HHS insisted on stepping on religious toes because, well, because they thought they could do it, I guess.

The state may have a compelling interest in providing free contraceptives as you imply, but they have to avoid quashing religious beliefs as much as possible. HHS had already set up an acceptable alternative for religious non-profits, i.e., employees get their contraceptives directly from HHS, but refused to set up such as system for Hobby Lobby.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

As has already been pointed out, Viagra generally requires a co-pay. It is not "free."
If the insurance is earned and/or paid for by the employee then it's not free.



It does not require preventing, on either medical or practical grounds in the vast majority of cases. Some women simply happen to desire it.
If the desire is to have a better life or even to have a life...then yes, pregnancy often does require preventing. But family planning isn't your problem....but the sexual habits of others apparently is.


I'm not making anything "personal."
Your quotes say otherwise.....
..... your sexual habits..
...So pay for it yourself....
Your unnecessary sex pills....

You've already told us what you're after point blank. You want "sexual liberation" for women with someone else footing the bill.

if you're going to quote me at least be honest about it....
.....For the vast majority of women birth control is the very essence of liberty and the great societal equalizer. Birth control allows women to participate equally in the economy and society. It gives them control over their own lives and destiny...aka 'individual liberty'.

"The ability of women to participate equally in the economic and social life of the Nation has been facilitated by their ability to control their reproductive lives." - Casey v. Planned Parenthood (1992)
.....
I didn't realize that "participating in the economy and social life of the Nation" aka known as working and having a job was considered "sexual liberation" but I can see how some men might see it that way.


I'm sorry, but you're simply not entitled to that. :shrug:
Not entitled to what? Not entitled to earn a living or not entitled to plan a family? Women are entitled to that and if you can't handle it then that really is your problem. :shrug:


How are you "paying for your own health insurance" your employer pays your medical bills for you? :roll:
:roll: If you must know our health insurance pays for most our medical expenses.

Are they not already paying you an honest wage or salary?
Health insurance is part of the employers payment package. We earn it.

Every additional expense beyond that only cuts into their bottom line more.
Everyone's got a bottom line.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

You need to keep in mind that this whole issue stems from a government mandate that employers provide not only a wage but certain other benefits to their employees. That was a HUGE overreach of federal authority. What this current ruling does is merely claw back a thin slice of of individual liberty.

I suppose its a matter of perspective I guess. To some of us, this is just an opportunity for employers to push their religion on their non religious employees. Essentially, god says you shouldn't be doing this anyway, so we're not paying for it. What the employee believes doesn't matter. That's whats wrong with the whole thing. Its up to the individual to follow the teachings of whatever religion they choose to follow, not attempt to force others to do so, through financial pressure, slut shaming, or whatever other means. One is supposed to voluntarily subjects ones self to the rules/morals/teachings/etc of a given religion. They shouldn't be financially pressured into it any more than they should be physically pressured into it. The fact that vasectomies are still covered puts the lie to this pile of hypocrisy.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

That is YOUR interpretation of scripture. Are you seriously advocating that the SCOTUS ought to decide what is valid scripture interpretation, and that which is not? Based on popularity of the interpretation?

The belief must be sincere and I think the sincerity of specious claims can be effectively challenged, but we'd have to wait until someone tried to run with such a specious argument in court and I don't think that's going to happen. I doubt you do, either.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

It's even a smaller benefit than that. It will benefit only those closely held corps, which also have similar religious beliefs regarding some contraceptives. And this has nothing to do with the employees beliefs but the closely held corporation's beliefs. I would think religious freedom for chanting or praying is already settled law as part of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993.




It's actually the first paragraph of the Syllabus in the HL court case. Here's the link:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/13-354_olp1.pdf

90% of the companies in the US are "closely held". This ruling opened up a can of worms.

Will the government be able to regulate for profit businesses who claim religious exemption or will that be considered "unconstitutional" as per the first amendment?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

I suppose its a matter of perspective I guess. To some of us, this is just an opportunity for employers to push their religion on their non religious employees. Essentially, god says you shouldn't be doing this anyway, so we're not paying for it. What the employee believes doesn't matter. That's whats wrong with the whole thing. Its up to the individual to follow the teachings of whatever religion they choose to follow, not attempt to force others to do so, through financial pressure, slut shaming, or whatever other means. One is supposed to voluntarily subjects ones self to the rules/morals/teachings/etc of a given religion. They shouldn't be financially pressured into it any more than they should be physically pressured into it. The fact that vasectomies are still covered puts the lie to this pile of hypocrisy.

All of that is predicated by the idea that an employer is mandated to provide something other than a wage to the employee.

If we simply allowed the employee to purchase their own insurance then they would be free to obtain whatever level of coverage they wanted and could afford. There would be no need to infringe on anyone's religious beliefs.

One of the biggest problems with "one size fits all" solutions is that not everyone is the same size and, inevitably, some will have much more than they need while other won't have enough. It's an inherently flawed way of utilizing resources and, as such, ends up being ridiculously burdensome when mandated.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

If the insurance is earned and/or paid for by the employee then it's not free.

The odds are that the healthcare package in question is worth well more than your objective value to the company already, which is why there is no reason to go jacking up the prices paid by employers on unnecessary luxuries.

Christ, what's next? Employer mandated plastic surgery?

If the desire is to have a better life or even to have a life...then yes, pregnancy often does require preventing. But family planning isn't your problem....but the sexual habits of others apparently is.

I didn't realize that "participating in the economy and social life of the Nation" aka known as working and having a job was considered "sexual liberation" but I can see how some men might see it that way.

Do whatever you want. Just don't expect anyone else to foot the bill.

I fail to see how this is hard concept.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are means of avoiding pregnancy out there which do not cost a dime. You simply desire the luxury of not having to make use of them.

Furthermore, yes, what you're advocating here does ultimately come down to "sexual liberation." You are basically saying that it is your employer's responsibility to ensure that you are able to have sex without risking pregnancy.

Since when?

Not entitled to what? Not entitled to earn a living or not entitled to plan a family? Women are entitled to that and if you can't handle it then that is your problem. <shrug>

They are "entitled" to do so only on their own dime.

You do not have the right to demand that anyone else pay for it.

Health insurance is part of the employers payment package. We earn it.

It is mandated by law. :roll:

Realistically speaking, very few employees actually put in the productivity necessary to legitimately "earn" it.
 
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Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

The belief must be sincere and I think the sincerity of specious claims can be effectively challenged, but we'd have to wait until someone tried to run with such a specious argument in court and I don't think that's going to happen. I doubt you do, either.

Are you questioning whether Christian Science members sincerely believe their interpretation of scripture?

In YOUR opinion, it is a specious argument. You dodged the question. You are likely to continue to dodge it, being dishonest with yourself, by trying to claim something you know can't be demonstrated one way or the other at this time: That they aren't sincere. What exactly do you think they actually believe, if not what they say they believe?

Do you think that the SCOTUS should be in the business of determining what beliefs are scriptural?

And yes, I do think there will be cases that arise, actually. And if the SCOTUS tries to say in any way shape or form "That is not a scriptural belief", I will be very surprised. If they try to say, "That is not a widely held belief", I will be very surprised. It might be that a belief isn't sincerely held, but I doubt it will get to the SCOTUS at all if it can be demonstrated that it is not sincerely held.

We just need to accept that religious freedom is likely to have a wide ranging impact on employment laws regarding private companies. I am ok with that, but you are in denial it will even happen.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

90% of the companies in the US are "closely held". This ruling opened up a can of worms.
That's not enough just to be closely held, as you already know. The ruling was specific and narrow. What percentage of that 90% are religious. What % of that % has a problem with certain types of contraception?

Will the government be able to regulate for profit businesses who claim religious exemption or will that be considered "unconstitutional" as per the first amendment?
I'm sure the government, if they see a benefit to government in doing so, will try. However, that is not germane to this topic.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

I suppose its a matter of perspective I guess. To some of us, this is just an opportunity for employers to push their religion on their non religious employees. Essentially, god says you shouldn't be doing this anyway, so we're not paying for it. What the employee believes doesn't matter. That's whats wrong with the whole thing. Its up to the individual to follow the teachings of whatever religion they choose to follow, not attempt to force others to do so, through financial pressure, slut shaming, or whatever other means. One is supposed to voluntarily subjects ones self to the rules/morals/teachings/etc of a given religion. They shouldn't be financially pressured into it any more than they should be physically pressured into it. The fact that vasectomies are still covered puts the lie to this pile of hypocrisy.

Hobby Lobby owners should be forced to do things that are against their religious beliefs, but people should not be forced to do things against their religious beliefs. Got it.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

If all the Founding Fathers suddenly rose from the dead and read this thread, what percentage would immediately put a gun to their heads?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

All of that is predicated by the idea that an employer is mandated to provide something other than a wage to the employee.

If we simply allowed the employee to purchase their own insurance then they would be free to obtain whatever level of coverage they wanted and could afford. There would be no need to infringe on anyone's religious beliefs.

One of the biggest problems with "one size fits all" solutions is that not everyone is the same size and, inevitably, some will have much more than they need while other won't have enough. It's an inherently flawed way of utilizing resources and, as such, ends up being ridiculously burdensome when mandated.

The ACA is a poor excuse for wanting to push the religious beliefs and morals of the employer onto the employee. I could just as easily say this is employers, bitter over being legally required to assist in their employees healthcare, shamelessly using their beliefs to fight a battle they've lost countless times. And because freedom of religion is one the founding principles of this country, SCOTUS doesn't want to just say "too bad" and steamroll them.

Why are vasectomies covered? they provide nothing but the risk associated with any procedure and the ability to have sex without risk of conception(or incredibly low risk, like most birth control methods). Sex is supposed to be strictly for reproduction right? Why no moral obligation to make it more difficult for non believers to have risk free sinful intercourse?
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Hobby Lobby owners should be forced to do things that are against their religious beliefs, but people should not be forced to do things against their religious beliefs. Got it.

no one is asking hobby lobby to use contraceptives, nor is it hobby lobbies moral imperative to make sure others don't.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Since you brought it up, please explain what you mean, bubba?

Sure.
The SC decision was based on the Freedom Of Religion Act so their ferocious response to the ruling shows the Democrat Party faithful are waging a War On Religion.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Are you questioning whether Christian Science members sincerely believe their interpretation of scripture?

In YOUR opinion, it is a specious argument. You dodged the question. You are likely to continue to dodge it, being dishonest with yourself, by trying to claim something you know can't be demonstrated one way or the other at this time: That they aren't sincere. What exactly do you think they actually believe, if not what they say they believe?

Do you think that the SCOTUS should be in the business of determining what beliefs are scriptural?

And yes, I do think there will be cases that arise, actually. And if the SCOTUS tries to say in any way shape or form "That is not a scriptural belief", I will be very surprised. If they try to say, "That is not a widely held belief", I will be very surprised. It might be that a belief isn't sincerely held, but I doubt it will get to the SCOTUS at all if it can be demonstrated that it is not sincerely held.

We just need to accept that religious freedom is likely to have a wide ranging impact on employment laws regarding private companies. I am ok with that, but you are in denial it will even happen.

Narrow ruling and liberal theatrics. That sums up this issue.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

No, it didn't deal with abortifacients.
Read the opinion. It dealt with contraception. And
any company that wants to deny coverage for any/all of the options can do so under the HL ruling.
And no,
poor women can't get what they can't afford.
If you don't care, fine, but you can't pretend not paying for something that can easily run $1,000 a year for some options has no effect on access to that drug/device.


HL objected to coverage for abortifacients, not contraceptives, they won the case. You're playing word games.
You're wrong once again ... any company that can show they qualify, as did HL, should not be forced to cover something they object to on religious grounds, as does HL. Don't play word games.
There's probably many things poor people can't get because they can't afford it. Actual healthcare isn't one of them.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

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Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

A number of people have posted to the effect that this ruling opens all sorts of doors for business leaders to deny employees various things on the basis of religious beliefs. But the ruling says clearly that business leaders won't be able to do that in cases where the government has a compelling interest in enforcement of a provision of the law despite religious objections as long as the law is the least restrictive on religious practice possible. That forecloses the possiblity of many of the horribles raised by left wingers.

That's likely true, although we don't really know the impact yet. The remedy the court suggested was, essentially, "Let taxpayers fund the mandate" then compared the unknown cost to $1.2 trillion and concluded the cost would be no real concern. But pretty much any amount over 1.2T is small, so what kind of solutions would meet the 'least restrictive' if the alternative is the Feds pick up some number that is small in relation to $1.2T? Not sure. We'll see.

In addition, the court also said that people who work for businesses that object to contraceptives can get contraceptives from the government through a plan set up by HHS for non-profit religious organizations.

That's true, and if the Court rules such accommodations legal - they're being challenged by religious groups who refuse to facilitate the accommodation - then HL and other affected women will see little effect. But this isn't a done deal till it survives court challenges.

Poor women will get contraception from where they have always gotten it -- planned parenthood and other similar organizations. Or they should be able to get it through Medicaid in which case employment doesn't matter.

This isn't a big part of the discussion, but Planned Parenthood is under a blistering attack by the same groups fighting for the right of employers to deny contraceptive coverage, and Medicaid just isn't available to most poor women in most states until they have a child, often after an unplanned pregnancy. So those solutions are partial at best and under attack from the religious right wing.

Left wingers have a hard time explaining why this ruling is such a bad thing without lying about it or distorting it. It doesn't deny anyone any rights. It in all likelyhood won't cost anyone anything. It won't have much of an effect on the ACA. It will only affect employees of closely held corporations in which the owners are a small, homogenous group with shared religious beliefs and who all object to paying for certain medical expenses. I seriously doubt that all religious objections will be a slam dunk, either. Jehovah's Witnesses might object to blood transfusions but I'm betting that they won't be able to refuse to pay for them through employee insurance because the government will claim a compelling interest in keeping people alive in the case of accidents, etc., without unduly burdening hospitals with the expense of transfusions that the accident victim can't pay for.

I find it a bit odd that to dismiss concerns about the impact of the ruling, you're having to claim that it will have no actual impact on anyone. Like I said above, if true then we're fighting over the ability of a few employers to engage in what is in practice an empty gesture, to 'deny' coverage for abortifacients, then take positive steps to make those same drugs available to the same women for free, from the same insurer who's handling the company plan. Like I mentioned, the lawsuits challenging the accommodation make this assumption unclear at the moment and perhaps it will be proven false.

I do agree some of the reaction by liberals/leftists to the ruling are overblown, but if that's true then so is the concern by right wingers over some employers' objections to contraceptives. But, hey, if the HL women just get coverage through taxpayers instead of HL, and that's the entire effect of this ruling, I'm OK with it. Frankly I'd do away with employer insurance altogether in part for just this reason, but if the result works, then OK. But I'm not at all sure that's a fair assumption at this point.

BTW, part of this is definitely optics and politics, but the right wing has done itself no favors so far. The all male hearing on the mandate for contraception for women was a telling example, and five old male Catholics issuing an extremely narrow ruling, against 3 women and a Jew on the other side, doesn't help the optics either, and comments like many in this thread that treat preventing pregnancy as somehow not a legitimate medical need for women is just piling on.
 
Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

Narrow ruling and liberal theatrics. That sums up this issue.

A ruling cannot be so narrow that it violates the idea of having some kind of principle. If rulings are to be without principle, then it is simply the caprice of the Judges. "This ruling only applies to Christians of a mainstream belief set" simply doesn't cut it.

The response Lowdown gave from the conservative perspective, and quoted in the post above this one, is a far more intelligent conservative view than your own about how the ruling might be limited. And it has some implications which might mitigate what I have been saying.
 
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Re: Supreme Court backs Hobby Lobby in contraceptive mandate challenge

I'm guessing DMS will be the first.

Curiously enough, a picture of DWS has been shown to be a very cheap yet very effective method of birth control.
And I bet it would withstand judicial scrutiny on religious grounds.
But there's still that cruel and unusual thing to consider.

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