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U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q[W:487:681]

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

So I'm guessing I came too late to the thread to actually discuss the topic?
 
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Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q | Fox Business

Congratulations, Liberals, you are getting what you want, A European Socialist economy dependent on a Federal Govt. run by liberals and with more people dependent on that govt. for existence. This is exactly what you get when you elect and re-elect a totally unqualified individual to the highest office in the land, High unemployment, high debt, low economic growth are the new normal in this country

so disappointing for the administration.

this will result in a drag on employment numbers as we approach election time in november. remember, employment is a lagging economic indicator.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

So I'm guessing I came too late to the thread to actually discuss the topic?

You could've been on page 2 and been too late.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Kid, you have a problem....
Please read what I wrote. I am including war spending in the figures I'm using.


Show me the official Treasury numbers that support your claim. This is nothing more than liberal BS
Egads.

The problem with using some official numbers in this discussion is that, yet again... Bush put the war off-budget. If you're looking at documents generated during the Bush years, you will miss a big chunk of military spending.

The Obama administration put the war spending back into the budget for its figures. In addition, other costs like health care for veterans won't be broken out clearly. So, I typically use the data released by the OMB in more recent years, as they include ALL the spending by ALL the Presidents, and 3rd parties (which do most of the hard work for you).

Here's the FY2015 figures. What you want to look at for expenses are tables 3.1 and 3.2: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2015/assets/hist.pdf

And: Study: Iraq, Afghan war costs to top $4 trillion - The Washington Post


Cite your source, debt of 10.6 trillion dollars on January 21, 2001 on a 14.5 trillion dollar economy is 73% and that isn't the 100+ % it is now.
See the above OMB chart, and History of the United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No matter how you slice it, the simple fact is that the debt did grow by a significant amount under Bush 43. That's what happens when you wage two wars, offer a new entitlement, and cut taxes at the same time. Even if you somehow believe he "only" increased it to 73%, then Bush 43 increased the debt-to-GDP ratio just as much as Obama, while Clinton actually reduced the debt-to-GDP ration by about 10%. Please, face facts.


So what? what did the govt. do to deserve the benefits of someone else's investment success? You seem to not understand risk taking either.
This is not about who deserves what. It's just a simple fact that the Bush tax cuts resulted in the federal government receiving significantly lower revenues, than if the cuts had not been enacted.


Please stop posting any charts that show tax cuts having any relationship with deficits....
Egads.

OK, let's go over some basic budgeting.

(Fiscal Year Revenues) - (Fiscal Year Expenditures) = Fiscal Year Deficits or Surpluses

When you put in a tax cut, it means less revenues. When you have less revenues in a year with more expenditures than revenues, that's going to increase the deficit.

It doesn't matter if you happen to cut taxes and, due to other factors, revenues go up. You are still collecting less in revenues than you would have, if you cut taxes.

Get it?


since tax cuts increased govt. revenue because they increased jobs. Show me that we would have had the same job creation without those tax cuts?
'Kay

The idea that "tax cuts increase tax revenues" simply does not apply here, because we are nowhere near the Laffer Curve.
Economist's View: Yet Again, Tax Cuts Do Not Pay for Themselves
No, New Tax Cuts Will Not Pay for Themselves | Economic Policy Institute
Art Laffer Did Not Say Anything So Stupid As All Tax Cuts Pay For Themselves - Forbes

Or, to put it another way:

People don't hire employees because they got a break on estate taxes. CEO's definitely don't hire more people because of a cut in their personal tax rate; in fact, if laying people off boosts the stock price, and the CEO is compensated with stock, he is more likely to fire people because of a cut in capital gains taxes. If I own a small business, and I buy a bunch of IBM stock, and sell it 5 years later, and get a 5% break on capital gains, it's not likely to convince me to hire another employee at my business. A bank is not going to split off a high-frequency trading unit because of a 2% tax increase. A hedge fund manager is not going to close up shop because the carried interest tax rate on his personal income goes up 10%. I find it somewhat hard to believe that when you did your taxes in 2003, you saw that you'd save 5% on your personal income taxes compared to 2000, and on that basis decided to hire an additional staffer at your business.

What drove the economy during the Bush 43 years? Mostly a real estate and financial bubble, which was well under way before Congress enacted the Bush tax cuts. The economic benefits of the Bush tax cuts did not spark that bubble.


Oh, good Lord, you believe the govt. keeps costs down? This is the same entity that generated a 17.5 trillion dollar debt. You really don't realize how foolish you sound and have no understanding of the data you post.
No, I understand that this is exactly how Medicare works, and it's how single-payer systems work around the world. I also recognize that you're engaging in the fallacy of composition.


Most done within the Defense department budget which again you don't understand.
egads

Again: I am talking about aggregate spending. It doesn't matter that Bush kept the war spending out of the DOD budget, it doesn't matter that some defense spending is discretionary while some is non-discretionary. None of that matters.


LOL Obama had a Democrat Congress that could have eliminated those tax cuts if he really believed they caused the deficits....
No, they really couldn't. The Republicans would have undoubtedly filibustered any attempt to retire the cuts early, and extending them was part of the 2010 relief package.


Still waiting for any justification for having Medicare and SS on budget?
And I'm waiting for you to recognize that the figures you're citing as the 2015 $3.9 trillion budget INCLUDE SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE.


You will never see inflation with this many people unemployed, under employed, and discouraged.
I'm sorry, but statements like this make it obvious that you don't understand economics. Inflation induced by a government printing up money, and using it to pay the government's bills, will undoubtedly cause inflation regardless of other macroeconomic conditions. In fact, that type of inflationary pressure will cause other problems like unemployment. We see exactly this in Zimbabwe, where Mugabe printed up currency to pay for government expenditures.


Please name for me one predication made by this Administration that has been accurate
Again, read my post. These types of economic analyses and predictions are not being put out by the Obama administration.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Yeah, I live in a state with the 11th largest economy in the WORLD and we had a bad winter here just like apparently you did. The difference is the state of TX has a part time legislature, low taxes, pro growth economic policies and a strong economy. Seems to work here so why not in your state or the nation. Any idea what Obama's results would be without TX?

Obama's results? Do you seriously believe that any president has that much control over a country? You've got to be kidding me. It was a horrible winter and a lot of people died here. I can easily believe that the economy took a hit because of it. Just like the economy would take a hit if there was a hurricane or a tornado. I don't know why you think there's any correlation between a Texas winter that had 4 days that were below 32 degrees for the entire 24 hours and a Minnesota winter that had 58 days below ZERO! You guys had four days that were below 32 and we had 23 in January alone (the other days got up to 32 or 33 for a few hours). Your winter forced you to wear a jacket, ours forced us to stop living our lives for three months. We had 60 inches of snow.

There was one winter in the 80s that was, supposedly, as bad for the US as a whole. It was the winter of 1981-1982. And the economy fell more than 6% after that winter, so maybe that's not the best example. But unlike you, I wouldn't think Reagan had anything to do with that, because Presidents are mainly sock puppets and have very little control over the country.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Saint Reagan blamed his predecessor too. This is from his 1983 State of The Union Address:

What does that have to do with what I wrote? I don't think calamity was ever POTUS. Why are you comparing Reagan to calamity or thinking he has anything to do with what I wrote?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Nothing that conservatives haven't seen coming for at least the last 6 years. Conservative foresight > Liberal hindsight.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Liberals will just tell you it was needed to keep us out of a depression, or it was Bush's tax cuts for the rich, or unfunded wars. There is no winning with them.

It's not just a liberal thing. It's something that grips and perpetuates a faulty system. It is partisanship. The blame of all that's wrong in Washington is on the partisans that protect their party first and America second. Democrats hate EO's when there's a republican president and vice versa. Democrats hate the use of the IRS against political rivals when there's a republican president, and of course the opposite is true, and I could go on like that all day. The point is, partisanship is the greatest enemy attacked the least.

Oh, and the Bush tax cuts did primarily benefit the rich.

Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say.

Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say - The Washington Post
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Howq many of those bills don't have legislative riders and poison pills ?

Don't know, do you? Have you seen the bills? What is the problem with publishing them and letting them be debated? Still waiting for an explanation as to where those shovels went?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Gee, you think?

Given enough time, even the "experts" are able to figure it out.

Yeah, the folks living paycheck to paycheck are invariably the first to realize something is wrong.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

I think the Obama presidency is a failure on par with the Bush and Reagan presidencies. Why are you attaching a liberal label on me?

However, neither Obama or the next president will be repairing the damage of Reaganomics!

You can see this trend today in America. When we had heavily regulated and taxed capitalism in the post-war era, the largest employer in America was General Motors, and they paid working people what would be, in today’s dollars, about $50 an hour with benefits. Reagan began deregulating and cutting taxes on capitalism in 1981, and today, with more classical “raw capitalism,” what we call “Reaganomics,” or “supply side economics,” our nation’s largest employer is WalMart and they pay around $10 an hour.

So let me see if I have this right, Reagan's Presidency was a failure because he had a 1.7 trillion dollar debt in a 5.2 trillion dollar economy that created 17 million jobs, doubled GDP, increased govt. income tax revenue 60%, won every state but one in 1984, and created a peace dividend? Interesting logic on your part.'

I can see from your posts why capitalism is a problem for you. I didn't have any problem growing up with personal responsibility and not expecting the govt. to take care of me as long as I had family and could take care of myself. Interesting logic on your part

Your apparently hatred for big business ignores the reality that people don't have to shop at Walmart but do and that really must piss you off?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

The delusion that we never had good growth until Reagan came along is very widespread among the right-wing; somehow the whole postwar generation, in which everyone’s incomes doubled, has been erased from memory. But it’s still there in the national accounts:

071811krugman5-blog480.jpg


You also write of Reagan's job creation numbers as if they were miraculous. Jimmy Carter's administration presided over 10,339,000 jobs created in four years -- a higher rate per year than Reagan's 17,000,000 in eight-years. Clinton presided over 22,000,000 in eight-years.

Moreover, you snidely imply that the stimulus did not create jobs. That is factually incorrect, as economists attribute millions of jobs to the stimulus.

What leftwing blog did you get that information from? You simply have no idea what you are talking about, BLS has the job creation numbers not those leftwing blogs but the reality is Reagan inherited a double dip recession, one in 1980 and another in 81-82 which of course you want to ignore and blame on Reagan even though Reagan's policies were not even implemented until August of 1981 and only 1/3 of the tax cuts. Nice revisionist history that liberals like you will cheer.

Interesting how economists measure jobs saved, name for me any official site that does that? Speculation is what liberals like you always do but BLS.gov, doesn't show those created jobs as we have fewer people working today than when the recession began. I suggest that you stop letting the leftwing blogs make a fool out of you
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Bad argument too.

Conservatives don't want to cloud their opinion with graphs derived from data.

I have no problem with official graphs coming from actual data like bls.gov, bea.gov, and the U.S. Treasury. I have posted them over and over again but as usual some liberal rag trumps official data
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

So let me see if I have this right, Reagan's Presidency was a failure because he had a 1.7 trillion dollar debt in a 5.2 trillion dollar economy that created 17 million jobs, doubled GDP, increased govt. income tax revenue 60%, won every state but one in 1984, and created a peace dividend? Interesting logic on your part.'

I can see from your posts why capitalism is a problem for you. I didn't have any problem growing up with personal responsibility and not expecting the govt. to take care of me as long as I had family and could take care of myself. Interesting logic on your part

Your apparently hatred for big business ignores the reality that people don't have to shop at Walmart but do and that really must piss you off?

People DO have to shop at Walmart. And this country suffered under the heavy hand of oppressive big business during the industrial revolution up until the 1930's when regulation, unions and a host of benifits were bestowed upon the working man which resulted in the building of the largest and strongest middle class in history. The war against the unions, as well as deregulation has reversed those gains and the pendulum swings back. But the pendulum never goes over the top, it reaches its extreme and it pushes back in the opposite direction. What's unfortunate is that it rarely/never stops in the middle.

Capitalism isn't a problem for me, and you haven't seen me make such an argument. Capitalism of necessity must be regulated and governed, because as was pointed out long ago, "men are not angels"

I don't wish to see an imbalance either way, in favor of labor or business!
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

ROFLMAO, interesting how BLS, BEA, and the Treasury disagrees with an op ed piece from the Orlando Liberal Examiner. You people are really desperate to save an incompetent in the WH

I'm not interested in saving the incompetent in the Whitehouse. My post you quoted speaks to earlier incompetents in the Whitehouse.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

I'm not interested in saving the incompetent in the Whitehouse.
My post you quoted speaks to earlier incompetents in the Whitehouse.
See how he made you move the goalpost to him by you just criticizing Obama only.
No discussion of today's House of collapse.
No comparisons to 20 of 28 years of deficits from the GOP back through Reagan.

Calls all graphs and facts he doesn't like "liberal" and from the "left", as if he thinks that dismisses them .
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

See how he made you move the goalpost to him by you just criticizing Obama only.
No discussion of today's House of collapse.
No comparisons to 20 of 28 years of deficits from the GOP back through Reagan.

Calls all graphs and facts he doesn't like "liberal" and from the "left", as if he thinks that dismisses them .

I was trying to hold it in place!
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Please read what I wrote. I am including war spending in the figures I'm using.



Egads.

The problem with using some official numbers in this discussion is that, yet again... Bush put the war off-budget. If you're looking at documents generated during the Bush years, you will miss a big chunk of military spending.

The Obama administration put the war spending back into the budget for its figures. In addition, other costs like health care for veterans won't be broken out clearly. So, I typically use the data released by the OMB in more recent years, as they include ALL the spending by ALL the Presidents, and 3rd parties (which do most of the hard work for you).

Here's the FY2015 figures. What you want to look at for expenses are tables 3.1 and 3.2: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2015/assets/hist.pdf

And: Study: Iraq, Afghan war costs to top $4 trillion - The Washington Post



See the above OMB chart, and History of the United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No matter how you slice it, the simple fact is that the debt did grow by a significant amount under Bush 43. That's what happens when you wage two wars, offer a new entitlement, and cut taxes at the same time. Even if you somehow believe he "only" increased it to 73%, then Bush 43 increased the debt-to-GDP ratio just as much as Obama, while Clinton actually reduced the debt-to-GDP ration by about 10%. Please, face facts.



This is not about who deserves what. It's just a simple fact that the Bush tax cuts resulted in the federal government receiving significantly lower revenues, than if the cuts had not been enacted.



Egads.

OK, let's go over some basic budgeting.

(Fiscal Year Revenues) - (Fiscal Year Expenditures) = Fiscal Year Deficits or Surpluses

When you put in a tax cut, it means less revenues. When you have less revenues in a year with more expenditures than revenues, that's going to increase the deficit.

It doesn't matter if you happen to cut taxes and, due to other factors, revenues go up. You are still collecting less in revenues than you would have, if you cut taxes.

Get it?



'Kay

The idea that "tax cuts increase tax revenues" simply does not apply here, because we are nowhere near the Laffer Curve.
Economist's View: Yet Again, Tax Cuts Do Not Pay for Themselves
No, New Tax Cuts Will Not Pay for Themselves | Economic Policy Institute
Art Laffer Did Not Say Anything So Stupid As All Tax Cuts Pay For Themselves - Forbes

Or, to put it another way:

People don't hire employees because they got a break on estate taxes. CEO's definitely don't hire more people because of a cut in their personal tax rate; in fact, if laying people off boosts the stock price, and the CEO is compensated with stock, he is more likely to fire people because of a cut in capital gains taxes. If I own a small business, and I buy a bunch of IBM stock, and sell it 5 years later, and get a 5% break on capital gains, it's not likely to convince me to hire another employee at my business. A bank is not going to split off a high-frequency trading unit because of a 2% tax increase. A hedge fund manager is not going to close up shop because the carried interest tax rate on his personal income goes up 10%. I find it somewhat hard to believe that when you did your taxes in 2003, you saw that you'd save 5% on your personal income taxes compared to 2000, and on that basis decided to hire an additional staffer at your business.

What drove the economy during the Bush 43 years? Mostly a real estate and financial bubble, which was well under way before Congress enacted the Bush tax cuts. The economic benefits of the Bush tax cuts did not spark that bubble.



No, I understand that this is exactly how Medicare works, and it's how single-payer systems work around the world. I also recognize that you're engaging in the fallacy of composition.



egads

Again: I am talking about aggregate spending. It doesn't matter that Bush kept the war spending out of the DOD budget, it doesn't matter that some defense spending is discretionary while some is non-discretionary. None of that matters.



No, they really couldn't. The Republicans would have undoubtedly filibustered any attempt to retire the cuts early, and extending them was part of the 2010 relief package.



And I'm waiting for you to recognize that the figures you're citing as the 2015 $3.9 trillion budget INCLUDE SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE.



I'm sorry, but statements like this make it obvious that you don't understand economics. Inflation induced by a government printing up money, and using it to pay the government's bills, will undoubtedly cause inflation regardless of other macroeconomic conditions. In fact, that type of inflationary pressure will cause other problems like unemployment. We see exactly this in Zimbabwe, where Mugabe printed up currency to pay for government expenditures.



Again, read my post. These types of economic analyses and predictions are not being put out by the Obama administration.

I am done with you as obviously you are so married to an ideology that even facts get in the way. One more time and I am going to bold it, THE DEFICIT INCLUDES BOTH ON BUDGET AND OFF BUDGET ITEMS so it doesn't matter, it is still part of the 10.6 trillion left to Obama. What did Obama do about it, signed the 2009 budget adding the stimulus, GM/Chrysler takeover, Afghanistan supplemental items, recycled TARP repayments and like good little soldiers you blame Bush for that deficit.

Sorry but you are simply too naive, gullible and poorly informed to continue this. Let me know when when you can explain why SS and Medicare are even part of the budget and why we need a 3.9 trillion dollar budget or a 2.5 trillion dollar budget without Medicare and SS?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Obama's results? Do you seriously believe that any president has that much control over a country? You've got to be kidding me. It was a horrible winter and a lot of people died here. I can easily believe that the economy took a hit because of it. Just like the economy would take a hit if there was a hurricane or a tornado. I don't know why you think there's any correlation between a Texas winter that had 4 days that were below 32 degrees for the entire 24 hours and a Minnesota winter that had 58 days below ZERO! You guys had four days that were below 32 and we had 23 in January alone (the other days got up to 32 or 33 for a few hours). Your winter forced you to wear a jacket, ours forced us to stop living our lives for three months. We had 60 inches of snow.

There was one winter in the 80s that was, supposedly, as bad for the US as a whole. It was the winter of 1981-1982. And the economy fell more than 6% after that winter, so maybe that's not the best example. But unlike you, I wouldn't think Reagan had anything to do with that, because Presidents are mainly sock puppets and have very little control over the country.

I understand that leadership isn't something you understand but I certainly would like to know exactly what Obama didn't get that he wanted from the Democrat controlled Congress in 2009-2010. Leadership is about talking responsibility and not placing blame.

You don't seem to get it, we contracted almost 3% so a 3% gain in the second quarter puts us back to zero. In an economy that contracted like it did in 2008 should be in the 6-7% range creating hundreds of thousands of jobs. That isn't going to happen with liberal economic policies

I find liberal excuse making tiresome and a waste of time to respond. there is a reason Obama has such poor JAR numbers, maybe you can figure them out. As long as you have such low expectations that is always what you are going to get.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

It's not just a liberal thing. It's something that grips and perpetuates a faulty system. It is partisanship. The blame of all that's wrong in Washington is on the partisans that protect their party first and America second. Democrats hate EO's when there's a republican president and vice versa. Democrats hate the use of the IRS against political rivals when there's a republican president, and of course the opposite is true, and I could go on like that all day. The point is, partisanship is the greatest enemy attacked the least.

Oh, and the Bush tax cuts did primarily benefit the rich.

Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say.

Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say - The Washington Post

$28 billion of a $3++ trillion spend.

Wow. That will make all the difference in the world. Not.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

It's not just a liberal thing. It's something that grips and perpetuates a faulty system. It is partisanship. The blame of all that's wrong in Washington is on the partisans that protect their party first and America second. Democrats hate EO's when there's a republican president and vice versa. Democrats hate the use of the IRS against political rivals when there's a republican president, and of course the opposite is true, and I could go on like that all day. The point is, partisanship is the greatest enemy attacked the least.

Oh, and the Bush tax cuts did primarily benefit the rich.

Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say.

Ending Bush tax cuts for rich would save about $28 billion in 2013, analysts say - The Washington Post

Wow, 28 billion dollars out of a 3.7 TRILLION dollar budget!! Incredible, that would fund the govt. for how many days?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

People DO have to shop at Walmart. And this country suffered under the heavy hand of oppressive big business during the industrial revolution up until the 1930's when regulation, unions and a host of benifits were bestowed upon the working man which resulted in the building of the largest and strongest middle class in history. The war against the unions, as well as deregulation has reversed those gains and the pendulum swings back. But the pendulum never goes over the top, it reaches its extreme and it pushes back in the opposite direction. What's unfortunate is that it rarely/never stops in the middle.

Capitalism isn't a problem for me, and you haven't seen me make such an argument. Capitalism of necessity must be regulated and governed, because as was pointed out long ago, "men are not angels"

I don't wish to see an imbalance either way, in favor of labor or business!

I suggest you move if you have a problem with only having Walmart. You are very misguided and poorly informed making your opinions factual and actual data opinions. Risk taking isn't something you understand nor are personal behaviors. People choose where they are going to shop and unlike you they choose Walmart. I couldn't care either way and am not trying to regulate Walmart out of the economy. What does any of that have to do with the thread topic?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Wow, 28 billion dollars out of a 3.7 TRILLION dollar budget!! Incredible, that would fund the govt. for how many days?

It's not the dollar amount, its the ideology! :)
 
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