• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q[W:487:681]

Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Did you go past the headline? I know conservatives tend to always talk about Obama being a messiah but he doesn't control the weather.

Conservatives didn't portray him with a halo in the media though did they.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

I thought you guys believe the numbers given by the government were BS.

Is it accurate now?

I doubt they are accurate considering that the current administration is dependent on cooking the numbers, doesn't matter if it's the economy, secured borders or repealing DADT.

The actual GDP is probably worst than what we are being led to believe.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

The government can't fix, nor maintain the economy with regulation, or cash infusion. Anyone that thinks it can is living in fantasyland.

Pick up a history book on economics and you will find many examples of just that happening, sometimes at great success, sometimes at great failure.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Pick up a history book on economics and you will find many examples of just that happening, sometimes at great success, sometimes at great failure.

Most times, at great failure. Zero times was there permanent success. The last 7 years prov that the goavernment can't fix the econony.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Pick up a history book on economics and you will find many examples of just that happening, sometimes at great success, sometimes at great failure.

Can you give an example of one of the great successes?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Okay, then I stand by what I said. :) I know a LOT of small business owners and also folks who are working for big corporations and they're all either hurting or expecting to be hurt. If there has been 4% growth this quarter, they sure aren't feeling it as they sweat out whether they'll have a job or if they will be able to keep the employees they have left.

It is the totally opposite situation here we are reaching new highs, especially Bay St. profits. The only sector that is planned to slow down is real estate which we want to slow down.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Are you really this bullheaded. Do you understand what payroll taxes fund?
Yes, they fund Social Security. And a payroll tax cut is still a tax cut.


Do you understand what a rebate is? How does giving you 500 stimulate the economy long term?
a) Yes, of course I understand what a rebate is.
b) It helped cushion the blow when the economy was at a particularly rough patch, by getting people to spend, and via mechanisms with high multipliers. You DO know what a multiplier is, right? And why something like unemployment benefits, or a $400 break on your paycheck, tends to have a higher multiplier...?
c) The payroll tax cut was never intended as a long-term stimulus. It was always meant to be temporary, which is why it expired already.


Income tax cuts stimulate the economy because they are ongoing....$4200 in unemployment insurance excluded from taxes? Nice long term benefit, isn't it?
Where are you getting this "long term" requirement from? These tax cuts were always intended to be short-term, as was the spending. The long-term effects are indirect, namely they helped cushion the economy a little bit in the worst periods.


Child tax credit? How about the millions and millions who don't have children? Good for how long? Tuition credit? wow, now there is a job creator and stimulator
So... in your opinion, a tax cut isn't a tax cut if it only applies to some people?


First time home owner rebate? Great, don't you have to have a job to buy a home and continue to make the payments?
Uh, no. Not even close. It was a big tax rebate ($8000 at its peak), which you'd lose if you sold the home in less than 3 years. By the time the rebate was in place, banks had already increased lending standards because of the excesses during the real estate bubble. It also was a big boost for real estate, as noticed when people were basically trying to buy before the credit expired.


You don't understand economics, you don't understand the budget, you don't understand your own budget, or how to create jobs in a private sector economy. There is a disconnect between what you know and what the public in general sees. One of you are wrong, which one do you think it is?
Sorry, but it's you.

I've studied quite a bit of economics, including how and why a stimulus is supposed to work, why it's patently ridiculous to insist that a tax cut must be long-term in order to have any affect, how government budgets work, how bubbles form and perpetuate, how a lack of regulation in many key areas caused the last recession, and how limited governments are in terms of creating private sector jobs.


Do you know what a temporary increase in AMT Means?
OBVIOUSLY. In that case, it meant a one-year break for anyone bumping into AMT territory.


Poor economic growth to a liberal is still growth to be touted?
Your attempts to deflect are failing.

You are the one claiming that GDP growth of $1.7 trillion in recent years is due to an $850 billion stimulus, 1/3 of which is *cough* short-term tax cuts. You should explain your claim in more detail.


You really don't like this country much, do you? So now children are up to the age of 26? Why 26? Where is the incentive to get a job?
What the...?

I do like this country. I really don't see why "keeping offspring on parent's insurance" indicates that anyone "hates America" or is a disincentive to get a job. Rather, it's an expedient method to expand insurance coverage.


Yep, 7.3 million part time employees today according to BLS and all want full time work but cannot find it. Any suggestions? You think Obama policies create incentives to hire?
I think that there really isn't much that a government can do to encourage hiring. An employer isn't going to take on an employee who will cost him $50,000 a year just to get a $2,500 tax cut. We can't force companies to keep employees in the US. We can't force companies not to automate jobs.


How is that working out for our Veterans? how is that working out for those of us that actually pay taxes to the IRS? You think the govt. can do tasks that the private sector cannot? What tasks would that be?
The VA actually did a pretty good job overall until the last ~10 years. For decades, they had one of the best hospital systems in the US. The root of their problems extend across multiple administrations.

As to the tasks, I'd say they include: Defense, police, courts, oversight of industries, education, managing roads, handling parks, providing services for the poor, doing R&D. They actually do a pretty good job of it -- in many cases, better than the private sector. I might add that lots of governments do a good job of providing health care for their citizens.


Do you understand that our Founders had a part time legislature?
Do you understand that in 1790, the total US population was less than 4 million people? About half of US states have a larger population today than the entire US in 1790.


Why do we need a 3.9 trillion dollar federal budget?
Well, one reason is that people want benefits and services, and don't want to pay for them. Both Democrats and Republicans are willing to borrow to meet those demands. Republicans don't even want to collect taxes for those services.


Corporate America doesn't drive the U.S. economy, the small businesses many of whom are Mom and Pop operations do and Obama is doing nothing to help them.
Actually, it's both. Small businesses are responsible for about half of all US employees.


Those are the people that are now unemployed and not counted in the BLS data.
Uh, no, they're counted. BLS uses the Current Population Survey to determine unemployment. There's a separate statistic for people who are collecting unemployment benefits.


We have had over 5 years of stagnant economic growth, high unemployment, high debt. When is enough enough for people like you?
We've had about 5 years of positive growth after a devastating recession. Unemployment always lags, and it is slowly getting better. Changes in labor force participation is a multi-decade trend. How much information do you need to recognize that blaming the guy who got into office after the recession started isn't actually correct?


When you figure out the components of GDP and what they contribute you will have your answer. I could give you the answer but then you would just ignore it
Uh, hello? McFly? I did just list them.
• Personal consumption
• Business (private sector) spending
• Government spending
• Imports and Exports

So I ask you again. How did $600 billion in spending over two years result in $1.7 trillion in GDP growth over 4 years?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Failing to remedy this problem IS Obama's fault. He promoted himself as one having all the answers. But he has done nothing except blame someone else for problems he claimed to know how to fix. And the ones he has fixed, one being namely the war in Iraq, have blown up in his sorry little face.

For Christ's sake. The current state of affairs is good for corporate America, both parties pander to corporate America, all economic policies you'll see coming out of Washington will be beneficial to corporate America and I'd does not matter whether a smart ass or a dumb elephant is running things. But I'm pretty sure the dumb elephants appreciate you guys.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Well, if I have, then please accept my sincere apology. But I am simply amazed at the number of people who can see his blazing incompetence and still stick by him.

I don't stick by Obama. I just am disgusted by partisan rhetoric from both sides which ignores that we have been colossally screwed by both sides.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

I doubt they are accurate considering that the current administration is dependent on cooking the numbers, doesn't matter if it's the economy, secured borders or repealing DADT.

The actual GDP is probably worst than what we are being led to believe.

No previous administration was ever concerned with cooking the books?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

For Christ's sake. The current state of affairs is good for corporate America, both parties pander to corporate America, all economic policies you'll see coming out of Washington will be beneficial to corporate America and I'd does not matter whether a smart ass or a dumb elephant is running things. But I'm pretty sure the dumb elephants appreciate you guys.

Well, only a fool throws away his vote and votes green, and no one who works and pays taxes is going to vote blue. So, there isn't much other choice.

The thing I find most amusing is that you leftists one minute are bemoaning how so many corporations have left the country and taken the jobs with them, and the next minute you are vilifying the corporations which are still here providing jobs for Americans simply because they are in business to make money rather than being charitable organizations, which is what business, and trade, and commerce are all about to start with.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Well it is just what is being forecast by economists.

All of a sudden the economy is going to experience quadriple growth over a single quarter? There's no way!
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Most times, at great failure. Zero times was there permanent success. The last 7 years prov that the goavernment can't fix the econony.

Actually they prove that the government, regardless of which party is in power, isn't interested in fixing the economy. In fact this current economy has been good for corporate America, and that's who BOTH parties pander to. Have you had a look at corporate profits over this time period, compared with individual economic success during the same period?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

I don't stick by Obama. I just am disgusted by partisan rhetoric from both sides which ignores that we have been colossally screwed by both sides.

Well, watch your grandfather clock. The pendulum swings left then it swings right, but the time is what the clock is all about. IMO, both sides just have different methods for getting our money. But no 'green' candidate has ever won, and only by choosing a side in the fray will any American ever have a chance. After having been a registered Democrat for 47 years, a good portion of that being a blue dog, I finally realized that, as an American and single woman making 6 figures and paying in enough taxes each year to support a family of 6 under the federal poverty guidelines, the Democrats were not going to do one thing to help me keep any of my hard earned money. As a retiree, I realized that they also are not going to help me realize any more income through SS, and so about a year ago, I did something I thought I would never do - I changed my registration to Republican.

I agree that both sides are equally egregious, but US citizens need to get into the fray choose the side that works best for them, vote either Democrat or Republican, and then hold their asses to the fire. Any individual citizen who has not done that is equally at fault.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

When people have more debt than net worth they stop spending, Obama just steps on the gas.
I see no indication that people "stop spending" because of high debts. If I'm paying $2500 in rent, and I wind up paying $2500 for a mortgage, it's not going to significantly change my spending habits. It's only when the payments for the debt grow too great that there's an issue.


You continue to always blame someone else.
That's because in this case, Bush 43 bears a lot of responsibility for the current deficit situation.

Do you really deny that Bush policies resulted in 2 wars, big tax cuts, and a new Medicare benefit? Do you really deny that Obama inherited the worst recession in over 70 years? Do you really not understand that Obama cut those huge deficits roughly in half?


The individual sure doesn't have any control over their decisions and what they make, do they?
The huge gap in income inequality isn't a result of individual effort and choice. It's a result of government policies, which mean the wealthy keep more of their gains; and 40 years of stagnant wages for most Americans.


How does allowing people to keep more of what they earn increase the income gap?
Low capital gains taxes means keeping more assets, which means more income. Lower estate taxes mean high earners keep more assets, which in turn increases their income. Cutting benefits for the poor means reducing their income, and exacerbating the divide.

Do you really need me to explain it to you? You claim to know so much more than me about economics... ;)
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Well, only a fool throws away his vote and votes green, and no one who works and pays taxes is going to vote blue. So, there isn't much other choice.

The thing I find most amusing is that you leftists one minute are bemoaning how so many corporations have left the country and taken the jobs with them, and the next minute you are vilifying the corporations which are still here providing jobs for Americans simply because they are in business to make money rather than being charitable organizations, which is what business, and trade, and commerce are all about to start with.

What in the world makes me a leftist? And before Reagan/Thatcher started a war on unions, corporations were good for the small guy. On another point, you'll never see comprehensive immigration reform because unsecured borders provide cheap labor for big business and has the added bonus of driving down Americans wages. Again, both parties are ****ing us, most just don't understand that.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Actually they prove that the government, regardless of which party is in power, isn't interested in fixing the economy. In fact this current economy has been good for corporate America, and that's who BOTH parties pander to. Have you had a look at corporate profits over this time period, compared with individual economic success during the same period?

Why do you consistantly cheering for the big government party?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Well, watch your grandfather clock. The pendulum swings left then it swings right, but the time is what the clock is all about. IMO, both sides just have different methods for getting our money. But no 'green' candidate has ever won, and only by choosing a side in the fray will any American ever have a chance. After having been a registered Democrat for 47 years, a good portion of that being a blue dog, I finally realized that, as an American and single woman making 6 figures and paying in enough taxes each year to support a family of 6 under the federal poverty guidelines, the Democrats were not going to do one thing to help me keep any of my hard earned money. As a retiree, I realized that they also are not going to help me realize any more income through SS, and so about a year ago, I did something I thought I would never do - I changed my registration to Republican.

I agree that both sides are equally egregious, but US citizens need to get into the fray choose the side that works best for them, vote either Democrat or Republican, and then hold their asses to the fire. Any individual citizen who has not done that is equally at fault.

I don't give a **** what party you belong to, but I do think its funny that you think the republicans will let you keep your six figures.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Why do you consistantly cheering for the big government party?

What have you missed here? I have denounced both parties, and most recently in the post you just quoted, what's wrong with you man?
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

What in the world makes me a leftist? And before Reagan/Thatcher started a war on unions, corporations were good for the small guy. On another point, you'll never see comprehensive immigration reform because unsecured borders provide cheap labor for big business and has the added bonus of driving down Americans wages. Again, both parties are ****ing us, most just don't understand that.

If I have offended you by assuming you lean left, then please accept my humble apology. Your 'lean' is 'undisclosed'.

But, you are right about the immigration problem. What is happening right now is that the illegal immigrants are becoming America's newest 'slave' class. They pay into the system to the tune of about a billion a year into SS without being able to draw anything out. They do it because five dollars at the end of the day is better than 50 cents at the end of the week. BUT, they will not always be content to be US slaves. They will get old. They will want the money they paid into the system. They WILL rebel. The WILL demand their benefits. And by the time they do their numbers will be so great they will be unstoppable.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

I don't give a **** what party you belong to, but I do think its funny that you think the republicans will let you keep your six figures.

Well, I'm retired now so the 6 figure thing is in the past. The Republicans didn't make me. The Democrats didn't make me. I made myself. The job I had was one that self generated earning power. You are right neither party is invested in a person keeping their income up. But at the end of the day it was the Democrats who took the most away from me.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Why do you consistantly cheering for the big government party?

Good question, and likely the reason I estimated him to be a leftist.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

If I have offended you by assuming you lean left, then please accept my humble apology. Your 'lean' is 'undisclosed'.

But, you are right about the immigration problem. What is happening right now is that the illegal immigrants are becoming America's newest 'slave' class. They pay into the system to the tune of about a billion a year into SS without being able to draw anything out. They do it because five dollars at the end of the day is better than 50 cents at the end of the week. BUT, they will not always be content to be US slaves. They will get old. They will want the money they paid into the system. They WILL rebel. The WILL demand their benefits. And by the time they do their numbers will be so great they will be unstoppable.

It's cool. My 'lean' is deliberately undisclosed because I don't have one. I (we) have been screwed by both parties and until American's clean house, there will be no change. Hadn't thought about that angle on immigrants but I'm sure you are correct.
 
Re: U.S. Economy Shrinks By Most Since Great Recession in 1Q

Most times, at great failure. Zero times was there permanent success. The last 7 years prov that the goavernment can't fix the econony.

Permanent success? Seriously?

No the government can't fix the economy as in it can't change the circumstances it can only make the best of them. Considering how screwed up everything was they did a pretty good job of crisis management. Like I said I would have preferred to just let the banks fail at any cost but, we didn't. If you expected the government to turn the depression around into high GDP growth YOY you're dreaming. We went for a structured failure which meant a decade of paying for it with the same overlords staying in power at the cost of the middle class and the benefit of the ownership class.

Can you give an example of one of the great successes?

Golden age of capitalism
Keynesian economics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Back
Top Bottom