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Measles Hits Amish Communities, And U.S. Cases Reach 20-Year High

Tettsuo said:
So a total of 130 (out of 318million Americans) contracted the measles. No deaths. With these numbers, do you think we should start forcing vaccinations?

I, for one, am against forced anything when we're talking about medications.
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I don't think vaccinations ought to be forced. That being said with all the people choosing not to vaccinate I plan on updating my vaccinations (been 35 years) to protect myself. I'm afraid we live in an age where people do not truly understand how bad some of these diseases can be. I feel bad for the kids who are going to catch them because their parents were ignorant. I knew a kid growing up who's mom contracted rubella while pregnant with him, horrible.
 
Tettsuo said:
Shouldn't your vaccinated children be safe? Isn't that the draw of forcing vaccinations in the first place?
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Not all people can be vaccinated. Some children are too young, people who are allergic to a vaccine ingredient, someone immunocompromised or immunosuppressed due to transplants, chemotherapy, etc. Additionally, no vaccine is 100% effective. Some percentage of vaccinated people just don't develop the immunity, or the immunity can wear off.

Herd immunity protects all of these people, but herd immunity fails to function unless a high enough percentage of the population is vaccinated.
 
Deuce said:
It's still a serious illness and infecting a quarter of the population with any illness is catastrophic. The Black Plague never had anywhere near that level of infection.
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I'll concede that point. 25% is very extreme. How about 1%? If it hits that level, we can start talking about forced vaccinations.
 
Tettsuo said:
Shouldn't your vaccinated children be safe? Isn't that the draw of forcing vaccinations in the first place?
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This is a very damaging misconception. One of the primary reasons we vaccinate is to establish herd immunity to protect those who for a variety of reasons are not covered by the vaccine.

1. There are several classes of people for whom vaccines are not an option or are temporarily not effective including people who have gone through chemotherapy, people who have severe allergies to a component of the vaccine, people with certain illnesses, some kinds of vaccines for pregnant women, very young children, etc. Herd immunity helps to protect these people.

2. Vaccines do not have a 100% efficacy rate. Even our most effective vaccines like the two course measles schedule is 'only' 99% whereas some others go lower like rotavirus which can go down to 85%. If we broadly assume vaccines are 90-98% effective then you are still putting millions of people at risk. Once again herd immunity helps to protect those people.

When vaccinations start to fall down to the lower 90th percentiles you seriously undermine our herd immunity and allow diseases to resurface. Choosing not to get vaccinate is selfish and puts the entire community at risk.
 
soot said:
I disagree.

This is Darwin at his finest.

Want to be an idiot?

Fine, you go right ahead.

When Mother Nature steps in and wipes out your stupidity don't come crying to us.

I've been vaccinated, my kids have been vaccinated, what do I care if folks want to be dumbasses?
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Vaccination is important because there are people who are unable to get vaccinated due to having compromised immune systems. So if they get something like the measles, they are screwed. Herd vaccination helps these people as well as society more generally.
 
Deuce said:
Not all people can be vaccinated. Some children are too young, people who are allergic to a vaccine ingredient, someone immunocompromised or immunosuppressed due to transplants, chemotherapy, etc. Additionally, no vaccine is 100% effective. Some percentage of vaccinated people just don't develop the immunity, or the immunity can wear off.

Herd immunity protects all of these people, but herd immunity fails to function unless a high enough percentage of the population is vaccinated.
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I see, so the rest of us should risk the complications that MMR vaccine can have to protect a very small number of people that have those specific issues.

Btw, here's the CDC's list of the MMR vaccines side effects:

Vaccines: Vac-Gen/Side Effects

MMR vaccine side-effects
(Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)
What are the risks from MMR vaccine?
A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.
The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.
Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella.
Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.

Mild Problems
Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.

Moderate Problems
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)

Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage

These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.
This information was taken directly from the MMR VIS
(This information taken from MMR VIS dated 4/20/12. If the actual VIS is more recent than this date, the information on this page needs to be updated.)
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AliHajiSheik said:
So to keep communicable diseases from spreading, you are in favor of the government taking significant steps? Where would you have isolated all the people with HIV back in the day?
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"Back in the day" if our politicians had listened to the medical community instead of pandering for votes from the "Moral Majority" the AIDS pandemic would likely not be the clusterfudge it turned into.
 
Tettsuo said:
I see, so the rest of us should risk the complications that MMR vaccine can have to protect a very small number of people that have those specific issues.

Btw, here's the CDC's list of the MMR vaccines side effects:

Vaccines: Vac-Gen/Side Effects
Click to expand...

Again this is a very damaging misconception. One of the primary reasons we vaccinate is to establish herd immunity to protect those who for a variety of reasons are not covered by the vaccine.

1. There are several classes of people for whom vaccines are not an option or are temporarily not effective including people who have gone through chemotherapy, people who have severe allergies to a component of the vaccine, people with certain illnesses, some kinds of vaccines for pregnant women, very young children, etc. Herd immunity helps to protect these people.

2. Vaccines do not have a 100% efficacy rate. Even our most effective vaccines like the two course measles schedule is 'only' 99% whereas some others go lower like rotavirus which can go down to 85%. If we broadly assume vaccines are 90-98% effective then you are still putting millions of people at risk. Once again herd immunity helps to protect those people.

When vaccinations start to fall down to the lower 90th percentiles you seriously undermine our herd immunity and allow diseases to resurface. Choosing not to get vaccinate is selfish and puts the entire community at risk.
 
Sherman123 said:
Again this is a very damaging misconception. One of the primary reasons we vaccinate is to establish herd immunity to protect those who for a variety of reasons are not covered by the vaccine.

1. There are several classes of people for whom vaccines are not an option or are temporarily not effective including people who have gone through chemotherapy, people who have severe allergies to a component of the vaccine, people with certain illnesses, some kinds of vaccines for pregnant women, very young children, etc. Herd immunity helps to protect these people.

2. Vaccines do not have a 100% efficacy rate. Even our most effective vaccines like the two course measles schedule is 'only' 99% whereas some others go lower like rotavirus which can go down to 85%. If we broadly assume vaccines are 90-98% effective then you are still putting millions of people at risk. Once again herd immunity helps to protect those people.

When vaccinations start to fall down to the lower 90th percentiles you seriously undermine our herd immunity and allow diseases to resurface. Choosing not to get vaccinate is selfish and puts the entire community at risk.
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Clearly I understand what you're saying. Do you understand what I'm saying? There are risks involved for the person receiving the vaccine. Do you believe the risk/reward equation is great enough to mandate the MMR vaccine on people that don't want to take the risk involved with receiving the vaccine?
 
Tettsuo said:
Clearly I understand what you're saying. Do you understand what I'm saying? There are risks involved for the person receiving the vaccine. Do you believe the risk/reward equation is great enough to mandate the MMR vaccine on people that don't want to take the risk involved with receiving the vaccine?
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Yes. There are virtually no serious risks associated with the MMR vaccine. The worst adverse reaction is anaphylaxis and is virtually unheard of. Society has a compelling interest to retain herd immunity and protect those not covered by the vaccine.
 
Sherman123 said:
Yes. There are virtually no serious risks associated with the MMR vaccine. The worst adverse reaction is anaphylaxis and is virtually unheard of. Society has a compelling interest to retain herd immunity and protect those not covered by the vaccine.
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I just posted the risks. Also, there's a breakdown of the risk. How can you say there are no risk? Do you need me to re-post the risks for you to review?
 
Tettsuo said:
I just posted the risks. Also, there's a breakdown of the risk. How can you say there are no risk? Do you need me to re-post the risks for you to review?
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I very clearly said serious risk. The off chance of having glandular swelling or a low grade fever isn't a serious risk. The most common of the serious risks anaphylaxis (serious allergic reaction) is so rare that it is in less than one in a million cases which essentially relegates it to the realm of being unheard of. To re-iterate my point there are no serious risks associated with the MMR vaccine and society has a compelling interest in retaining our herd immunity.
 
Deuce said:
"Hey let me expand your notion into a completely different and ridiculous measure and also ignore the fact that diseases differ from each other"
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"Hey let me disagree with your point in a snarky way and ignore the point about the implications of government being able to mandate treatment in responses to disease."
 
year2late said:
"Back in the day" if our politicians had listened to the medical community instead of pandering for votes from the "Moral Majority" the AIDS pandemic would likely not be the clusterfudge it turned into.
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You must really hate when the government uses the impact of diseases and the number of people potentially impacted to based funding decisions. So do you rule out isolation as a means of fighting communicable diseases, or is that just pandering too?

These are complex issues and have significant implications on many fronts.
 
AliHajiSheik said:
You must really hate when the government uses the impact of diseases and the number of people potentially impacted to based funding decisions. So do you rule out isolation as a means of fighting communicable diseases, or is that just pandering too?

These are complex issues and have significant implications on many fronts.
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What would have been the implications if smallpox and polio vaccinations hadn't been mandated?
 
HenryChinaski said:
What would have been the implications if smallpox and polio vaccinations hadn't been mandated?
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There are several possibilities:

A lot of people with weak immune systems would have died.
People who were not vaccinated would have a higher chance of dieing.
People who were not inoculated and/or got sick could have been rounded up and put in camps.

do you have a favorite I didn't list?
 
AliHajiSheik said:
There are several possibilities:

A lot of people with weak immune systems would have died.
People who were not vaccinated would have a higher chance of dieing.
People who were not inoculated and/or got sick could have been rounded up and put in camps.

do you have a favorite I didn't list?
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Thankfully these scenarios weren't necessary due to mandated small-pox and polio vaccinations.
 
Blue_State said:
What happened to my body my rights?
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What happened to my right that I shouldn't have to contract your infectious disease that was preventable, but you just didn't want evil government telling you what to do?
 
AliHajiSheik said:
You must really hate when the government uses the impact of diseases and the number of people potentially impacted to based funding decisions. So do you rule out isolation as a means of fighting communicable diseases, or is that just pandering too?

These are complex issues and have significant implications on many fronts.
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The communicability of AIDS and measles are quite different.
 
Tettsuo said:
I'll concede that point. 25% is very extreme. How about 1%? If it hits that level, we can start talking about forced vaccinations.
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I think the current setup of requiring vaccines for school attendance works fine.

1% is still ridiculous and arbitrary. You haven't based that on any kind of science on viral propagation, you're just picking a number.
 
Sherman123 said:
Yes. There are virtually no serious risks associated with the MMR vaccine. The worst adverse reaction is anaphylaxis and is virtually unheard of. Society has a compelling interest to retain herd immunity and protect those not covered by the vaccine.
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I see, you didn't actually read the adverse reaction list. Let me repost it for you.

Moderate Problems
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)

Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage
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The last three are inconclusive as being directly linked to the MMR, but they are still listed.

Why are you discounting all of these problems as not serious?
 
Deuce said:
I think the current setup of requiring vaccines for school attendance works fine.

1% is still ridiculous and arbitrary. You haven't based that on any kind of science on viral propagation, you're just picking a number.
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Then please, pick a percentage.

The overall number of people that contract the measles each year in the US is still in the 0.0000(insert tiny number here)% range, and that's with the very few exemptions currently out there.

At what point is it okay to ask others to risk the health of themselves and their children so that someone else can have have a lower risk of contracting a disease that they are extremely unlikely to contract in the first place?
 
HenryChinaski said:
Thankfully these scenarios weren't necessary due to mandated small-pox and polio vaccinations.
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So people who were not vaccinated did not have a higher chance of dieing? I'm confused about your point. If people are not vaccinated, then presumably the only people at risk are those who were not vaccinated. Those who were vaccinated should have been statistically safe.
 
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