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Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values

Objective Voice said:
I read the post and understood both what the poster was saying, as well as, your reply to same. Hence, the reason I commented the way I did. You have to be able to verify what any so-called Preacher and/or witness to any religion is trying to tell you before excepting it as truth concerning your religious conviction. Otherwise, you can easily end up being led astray. Where today's apparent Holy War is concerned, the religious zealots are on both sides - Christian and Muslim. Both will play on people's fears in order to get what they want - blind followers of the faith. The same is said of religious cults.

1 John, 4:1-2. "1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2. Hereby know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God."
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The targets of Islamists are western democracies and they will attack anyone who doesn't defer to their brand of Islam. Your concern about Christian zealots is overwrought, and nothing compared to the Islamists..
 
Grant said:
That has nothing to do with the suggestion of why some countries with different religions don't do as well as those countries based on Christian teachings..
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Correlation =/= causation

You're asking others prove a negative to disprove your claim. The alternative is to explain everything that goes into the success of the West, which is really kind of ridiculous for anyone to expect.
 
roguenuke said:
An even easier way is to simply determine what exactly are Christian values and prove that no other cultures have those values.
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If you are old enough to use a computer you should be able to determine what Christian values are. Do you know what "The Golden Rule" is?
 
ecofarm said:
Correlation =/= causation You're asking others prove a negative to disprove your claim. The alternative is to explain everything that goes into the success of the West, which is really kind of ridiculous for anyone to expect.
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Not at all. Protestant work ethic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This had a huge influence on Great Britain at the time which partly explains why this little island in the North Atlantic was able to control 20% of the world's population at one time and why those countries Britain influenced most have all been a power in their areas.
 
Grant said:
If you are old enough to use a computer you should be able to determine what Christian values are. Do you know what "The Golden Rule" is?
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You really believe Jesus was the first person to think treating others as they would like to be treated is a good idea? No one figured that out before Him?

I think most people, of every culture/religion/ethnicity/etc come to such an idea.
 
Phys251 said:
"Republicans: Obama must defend Christian values"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lol: :lamo

Normally I'd tell them to get the plank out of their eyes before getting the speck out of his, but in this case we're talking an entire warehouse full of planks! LOLOLOL :lol:
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Why would it be so difficult for Barrack Obama to defend Christian values? Are you suggesting he's a Muslim and not a Christian?
 
Grant said:
Why would it be so difficult for Barrack Obama to defend Christian values? Are you suggesting he's a Muslim and not a Christian?
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I'll do it. I suggest Obama is a Muslim and not a Christian. What do you say about that?


Grant said:
Not at all. Protestant work ethic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This had a huge influence on Great Britain at the time which partly explains why this little island in the North Atlantic was able to control 20% of the world's population at one time and why those countries Britain influenced most have all been a power in their areas.
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They could have been worshiping Jaba the Hut, it wouldn't make a difference. The times called for work.
 
Grant said:
If you are old enough to use a computer you should be able to determine what Christian values are. Do you know what "The Golden Rule" is?
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The Golden Rule existed prior to Christianity or even Jesus.

Golden rule quotes from various religions

The vast majority of "Christian values" existed prior to Jesus and especially prior to Christianity and are part of a good number, if not most, cultures in at least a very similar way.
 
ecofarm said:
You really believe Jesus was the first person to think treating others as they would like to be treated is a good idea? No one figured that out before Him?

I think most people, of every culture/religion/ethnicity/etc come to such an idea.
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The idea that poor people even had a soul was a revolutionary idea at the time. There was a great divide between rich and poor and Christ's defense of them is still reverberating today.

I'm sure there were philosophers prior to Jesus who shared similar ideas but none of them had the impact his did.

To get a grasp on Christianity i think it is as important to read Bertrand Russell (History of western philosophy) as much as it is to read CS Lewis (Mere Christianity). Their ideas often conflict but their arguments are both worthwhile. People will probably find things in the New Testament they may not agree with (and plenty in the OT) but there is little doubt the general thrust of the philosophy influenced much of the western world today.
 
roguenuke said:
The Golden Rule existed prior to Christianity or even Jesus.

Golden rule quotes from various religions

The vast majority of "Christian values" existed prior to Jesus and especially prior to Christianity and are part of a good number, if not most, cultures in at least a very similar way.
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Nonetheless most of these religions remain obscure and forgotten while Christianity went on to change the world.
 
ecofarm said:
I'll do it. I suggest Obama is a Muslim and not a Christian. What do you say about that?
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I'd say he was a very poor President.
They could have been worshiping Jaba the Hut, it wouldn't make a difference. The times called for work.
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The times always call for work, all over the world. The difference is that the Protestants succeeded in their hard work while others didn't do near as well..
 
ecofarm said:
You really believe Jesus was the first person to think treating others as they would like to be treated is a good idea? No one figured that out before Him?

I think most people, of every culture/religion/ethnicity/etc come to such an idea.
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No doubt. But they usually don't follow through as sufficiently or successfully.
 
Grant said:
The idea that poor people even had a soul was a revolutionary idea at the time. There was a great divide between rich and poor and Christ's defense of them is still reverberating today.

I'm sure there were philosophers prior to Jesus who shared similar ideas but none of them had the impact his did.

To get a grasp on Christianity i think it is as important to read Bertrand Russell (History of western philosophy) as much as it is to read CS Lewis (Mere Christianity). Their ideas often conflict but their arguments are both worthwhile. People will probably find things in the New Testament they may not agree with (and plenty in the OT) but there is little doubt the general thrust of the philosophy influenced much of the western world today.
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Poor people "not having souls" aside, I believe the notion of treating others as one would be treated is found even in the animal world. To give Christianity credit for it is silly.
 
Grant said:
No doubt. But they usually don't follow through as sufficiently or successfully.
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Who says? You? That doesn't make you right. You are attempting to falsely claim a position of Christian superiority. Christians do not employ the Golden Rule either more often or better, nor more "successfully" than other cultures. Many Christians ignore the Golden Rule completely whenever it pleases them, usually for some selfish reason or in a display of "moral superiority".

Golden Rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

I think Gandhi did a good job at explaining it.

"Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians - you are not like him."
 
ecofarm said:
Poor people "not having souls" aside, I believe the notion of treating others as one would be treated is found even in the animal world. To give Christianity credit for it is silly.
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The animal world could be more rough and tumble than you might think and, besides, they were unable to put their thoughts to paper.

The idea may have been around since the cave man but the fact is that Christianity really ran with it and popularized it throughout the world. If there is another source which had this influence you might name it.
 
Grant said:
The animal world could be more rough and tumble than you might think and, besides, they were unable to put their thoughts to paper.

The idea may have been around since the cave man but the fact is that Christianity really ran with it and popularized it throughout the world. If there is another source which had this influence you might name it.
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Christianity simply populated a good portion more of the Earth than other religious groups cared to pursue, which in no way means that Christians employ the Golden rule better or even more often than other people from other religions or less Christian influenced cultures. In fact, many smaller cultures seem to do it better than most cultures with mainly Christian influences.
 
roguenuke said:
Who says? You? That doesn't make you right. You are attempting to falsely claim a position of Christian superiority. Christians do not employ the Golden Rule either more often or better, nor more "successfully" than other cultures. Many Christians ignore the Golden Rule completely whenever it pleases them, usually for some selfish reason or in a display of "moral superiority".

Golden Rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

I think Gandhi did a good job at explaining it.

"Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but you Christians - you are not like him."
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Gandi wasn't like him either, nor any of his followers. If Gandi actually said this he was being rather foolish.

The idea is that we should try to be like him, to be kind to others, etc. We all have failings but that shouldn't prevent us to do the best we can.
 
roguenuke said:
Christianity simply populated a good portion more of the Earth than other religious groups cared to pursue, which in no way means that Christians employ the Golden rule better or even more often than other people from other religions or less Christian influenced cultures. In fact, many smaller cultures seem to do it better than most cultures with mainly Christian influences.
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Do you have some examples of these cultures?
 
Grant said:
Gandi wasn't like him either, nor any of his followers. If Gandi actually said this he was being rather foolish.

The idea is that we should try to be like him, to be kind to others, etc. We all have failings but that shouldn't prevent us to do the best we can.
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But many aren't, just like in other cultures. Some live by the golden rule and some don't, but it has little to do with whether a person is Christian or not as to whether they do or don't live by it.

You seem to assume that being Christian puts someone automatically at a better place or with a higher willingness to live by the Golden Rule. There is absolutely no proof of this.
 
Paxaeon said:
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I read someplace in the New Tea Party coloring book version of the US Constitution that presidents must defend Christian values as opposed to the Constitution itself.
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Well if you can handle the Tea Party coloring book, you should be able to handling the Democratic Communist Manifesto coloring book. It's written in one color to make it easier.
 
Grant said:
Do you have some examples of these cultures?
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Small communities of most religions or even nonreligious people do it better. In general, the problem with most religious people and their application of the Golden Rule is that they only want to apply it to those who believe as they do. If you fail to accept that your beliefs are not universally accepted or think they should be, then that automatically puts your beliefs counter to the Golden Rule because it is not likely that you would want another religion or group of people telling you what you should believe or what you should feel is morally right or wrong. Yet, many Christians live their lives by doing this, and claim it as part of their religion. They don't even recognize that this mindset directly violates the Golden Rule.
 
roguenuke said:
Small communities of most religions or even nonreligious people do it better. In general, the problem with most religious people and their application of the Golden Rule is that they only want to apply it to those who believe as they do. If you fail to accept that your beliefs are not universally accepted or think they should be, then that automatically puts your beliefs counter to the Golden Rule because it is not likely that you would want another religion or group of people telling you what you should believe or what you should feel is morally right or wrong. Yet, many Christians live their lives by doing this, and claim it as part of their religion. They don't even recognize that this mindset directly violates the Golden Rule.
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I see your problem. You are focusing on the worst parts of christianity to make your argument. That doesn't work. I could point to the atheist leaders of the 20th Century and the carnage that resulted from their beliefs, but then I would be doing the same thing you are doing. Taking the extremists, trying to make them the norm, then making it fit your argument that religion is bad, bad, bad.
 
ecofarm said:
You do not rebuff my suggestion that Obama is a Muslim?
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Because it's not an issue to me and I don't care whether he is or not or where he was born. That's the least of the country's problems.
 
JoeTrumps said:
I see your problem. You are focusing on the worst parts of christianity to make your argument. That doesn't work. I could point to the atheist leaders of the 20th Century and the carnage that resulted from their beliefs, but then I would be doing the same thing you are doing. Taking the extremists, trying to make them the norm, then making it fit your argument that religion is bad, bad, bad.
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No. I am focusing on the attempted arguments to make Christianity better than any other religion or beliefs. It is ridiculous. Christianity is not better just because so many people in the US believe in it.

And many Christians (although I think this is changing for the better) violate the Golden Rule in relation to many other humans. One of the most obvious examples is homosexuals. Many Christians treat homosexuals like crap, even some who are "nice" to them because of those Christian's beliefs. Most Christians would not want to be told that their beliefs will get them to a negative place, yet those same people do not see it as wrong for them to tell others this. Another example is the insistence that those who aren't Christian will go to hell or go somewhere negative in death. Sure, other religions do this too, but that doesn't mean it is consistent with the Golden Rule for any of them.
 
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