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Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance [W:246, 565, *656*]

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Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Juanita said:
We won the war and we should have made the demands "and" we should have left some troops there..
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That, with all due respect, is rather unrealistic. We can declare victory and claim that we "won the war" till the cows come home.
We can make the demands till we're green in the face but ultimately, if they decide that US troops will be dragged into Iraqi courts, then
that's what's going to happen, UNLESS we want to RESTART the war again, in which case, WE HAVEN'T really won.

This isn't 1793, they aren't King George's Royal Army, and no one is lining up in some bucolic green meadow fighting "a gentleman's war".
Maliki said what he said. He said that he refused to guarantee their immunity if they remained.
Our only option after something like that is to start the war all over again, right from the beginning and, someone please tell me again why
we're over there fighting?

First it was to get Saddam, then it was to bring them democracy, then it was to stabilize the region, then it really WAS (by Bush's own admission) to
secure an agreement for the oil. We didn't get any of that. I say that because I really can't term what they have now as "democracy" quite yet.
Sure, it's something of a representative government, and maybe as close to democracy as we're going to see outside of Turkey but it's not democracy.

So what did we win?
Nothing.
What did we lose?
Plenty.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Checkerboard Strangler said:
That, with all due respect, is rather unrealistic. We can declare victory and claim that we "won the war" till the cows come home.
We can make the demands till we're green in the face but ultimately, if they decide that US troops will be dragged into Iraqi courts, then
that's what's going to happen, UNLESS we want to RESTART the war again, in which case, WE HAVEN'T really won.

This isn't 1793, they aren't King George's Royal Army, and no one is lining up in some bucolic green meadow fighting "a gentleman's war".
Maliki said what he said. He said that he refused to guarantee their immunity if they remained.
Our only option after something like that is to start the war all over again, right from the beginning and, someone please tell me again why
we're over there fighting?

First it was to get Saddam, then it was to bring them democracy, then it was to stabilize the region, then it really WAS (by Bush's own admission) to
secure an agreement for the oil. We didn't get any of that. I say that because I really can't term what they have now as "democracy" quite yet.
Sure, it's something of a representative government, and maybe as close to democracy as we're going to see outside of Turkey but it's not democracy.

So what did we win?
Nothing.
What did we lose?
Plenty.
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Not if we just took over the entire country. We could control the government, the oil. We'll just call them America Junior. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

ChrisL said:
Not if we just took over the entire country. We could control the government, the oil. We'll just call them America Junior. :mrgreen:
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East America
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

ChrisL said:
Good Lord! This is what I can't stand about the partisans. The mouth gaping hyperbole that you all spew. :roll: And people WONDER why we are so divided as a country. Yikes, that's just rotten to the core I must say.
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It's called being a realist. Invading Iraq was a HUGE mistake and someday you will know that too.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Jack Hays said:
This guy has it exactly right.:peace

Iraq veteran: This is not what my friends fought and died for - The Washington Post

We are reaping the instability and increased threat to U.S. interests that we have sown through the failure of our endgame in Iraq and our indecisiveness in Syria. There is a clear lesson here for those contemplating a complete withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan. Having given al-Qaeda a new lease on life in the Middle East, will we provide another base where it began, in Afghanistan and Pakistan?


This is not the end state my friends fought for and died for.
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I saw an interview on last night's evening news, some woman who lost her hubby over there, she was very dismayed - disappointed.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

iguanaman said:
It's called being a realist. Invading Iraq was a HUGE mistake and someday you will know that too.
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ChrisL will go to her grave thinking that the Iraq invasion was justified.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

I have to agree..... trying to introduce democracy to an insane asylum was not a good idea. I mean honestly, the fact that they think strapping a bomb to their kids is a good idea should of told us something.


notquiteright said:
False analysis. Problem is the Iraqis don't use the democratic form of governance, a problem with Western Culture is it thinks it's form of governance is superior and only a few bad men would refuse to use it. many regions of the world have a highly developed tribal system that for good or ill pushes leaders up... not unlike our party system that has a city councilman eventually a US Senator.

It is more bogus thought to claim anyone is 'conditioned' to dictatorship AND declare GAWD given rights live in all people's breasts. (BushII)

What was wrong is we scrapped the existing system and tried to force our 'western' system on the Iraqis. They had a system that needed cleaning not scrapping. But just like throwing all ba'athists out of any and every job in Iraq BushII seemed intent on being deaf to everyone but his inner council- none of which gave a second's thought to anything but Neo-Con think tank position papers.

Comparing the USofA and it's melting pot to tribal Iraq is yet another false comparison. We don't have 2000 years of history. We don't have large enclaves of different religious and tribal areas cobbled together by an outside power. (that said we do have enclaves of blacks some CONs point out as almost a separate land, a LIBstan of sorts, not to mention enclaves of white supremacists in the Rockies, in separation by gated community. We divide our nation into blue and red with some purple (do you listen to some of the overheated rhetoric throw around in here?)

The difference is our tribal power structure (and try to be a GOP liberal these days :shock: ) doesn't have thousands of years of bitter fighting to create the divide Iraq has, though we seem heading that way... :peace
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Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Amadeus said:
ChrisL will go to her grave thinking that the Iraq invasion was justified.
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Like 70 something % of Americans polled said no to going into Iraq again. That's about 20 to 30 % chicken hawks who want the USA to go, maybe they'd like to volunteer?
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

DrPepper said:
I have to agree..... trying to introduce democracy to an insane asylum was not a good idea. I mean honestly, the fact that they think strapping a bomb to their kids is a good idea should of told us something.
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You got that right. People all over the world in civilized countries are competing in sports, putting things together like bridges, roads, cars, and inventing things, cooking, boating, leisure activities, and all the insane bastards there in those third world goat herding countries do is plan on how to kill more people, if that isn't insane, I don't know what is.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

dad2three2001 said:
GO AHEAD, CUT DOWN THE QUOTES AGAIN :)
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You still cannot back up your ridiculous claim that Bush and Reagan gave Saddam WMD. You are simply being a typical leftist disseminating disinformation and crude, defamatory anti-USA propaganda.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

dad2three2001 said:
What 'facts'? Oh right, 5 years BEFORE Bush's CHOICE to invade Iraq on false premisses!
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Perhaps it would be wise to read the reports, and the one's that followed, before continuing to prove you desire to embrace the Progressive memes rather than the facts.

Focus on the ones where Iraqi officials refused access, and kicked out inspectors when they closed in on facilities their investigations indicated were suspicious.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

dad2three2001 said:
Dr. Blix, welcome back to "LATE EDITION." Congratulations on the new book.

And one of the key points you make in the book, and we'll get right to it, is that the war really wasn't justified; that the inspections at the time a year ago were going well.

You write this: "I felt the armed action taken was not in line with what the Security Council had decided five months earlier. Had there been any denials of access, any cat-and-mouse play? No. Had the inspections been going well? Yes. True, they had not resolved any of the open disarmament issues, but in my view, they had gone much too well to be abandoned to justify war."

Transcript of the Interview with IAEA Director General Mohamed ElBaradei and Dr. Hans Blix, Former Head of UNMOVIC

Transcript: Director General's CNN Interview - 21 March 2004
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Dong! Fail. Hans Blix. Talking points again? Sorry, but avoiding the facts isn't going to make this Prog/Lib meme any more factual. It's always been fun to read Blix's call that the inspections were going well. I guess if the standard is to be shut out of sites, and to be kicked out of the country are standards of excellence, he has a point. But really, not good for your meme.



Read the reports, or just continue to carry the water.
 
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Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

jonny5 said:
The point is as long as Sadaam was there, conflict was inevitiable. Same goes for North Korea or Iran or CHina for that matter. So long as evil people are in charge, conflict with good people are inevitable.
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Perhaps, Stalin was evil, but that didn't lead to armed conflict. We do not have to go around the world and try to stomp out every evil person or leader in the world.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

dad2three2001 said:
I'll admit, you surprise me, a bit :)

We were coming out of the GOP great depression until FDR listened to the deficit scolds and cut spending by 10% in 1937...
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FDR ran in 1932 on a deficit cutting platform.:peace
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

AJiveMan said:
Yeah, you gotta drive them with a stick, just like goats.
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No. There's a definite morale boost to having powerful friends in the fight with you. Plus, we bring a big force multiplier in terms of intelligence and logistics.:peace
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

shrubnose said:
I remember the discussion and I thought at the time that splitting Iraq up into 3 pieces was the best solution.

One of the reasons why that didn't happen was that Turkey didn't want a Kurdistan next door.

I'm sure that Turkey is still opposed to the idea of a Kurdish nation.

But that doesn't mean that it won't happen.


U.S. aircraft could strike targets in Iraq tomorrow, but I don't know if that's a good idea if the Iraqi government doesn't change its way of doing business and reach out to the Sunnis in Iraq.
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Exactly, Iraq has the men and the equipment to put a halt to ISIS, but does it have the will and heart. It is very possible al-Maliki has burnt down all his bridges too. al-Maliki may have to go, he has garnered too much hate against in the Sunni and Kurdish communities. Even a change may be too late, once one learns to hate, no olive branch will end that hate.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

I read where Nancy Pelosi weighed in on the situation and pretty much said whatever is happening in Iraq is not our problem. I think that pretty much sums up the mindset for many on the left side of the aisle and for the last six years their number one goal has been to cut and run on schedule regardless. They made it well known to the enemy their plans and it was just a matter of time the enemy knew it would have the green light to once more create havoc. The last six years it has been really sad to watch Iraq's opportunity to succeed diminish. But then again, when you have leadership like Nancy Pelosi making comments in 2006 that "Iraq isn't a war to be won" you pretty much knew it was slated to fail. We can chalk it up to another win for the terrorists. And for folks like Nancy Pelosi who thinks Iraq isn't our problem better think again. Because she and folks like her refused to support the war on terror while it was being fought over there, will soon find it being fought at their front door. Her open border immigration policies have already made us more vulnerable than ever to such attacks. It's just a matter of time.
 
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Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Perotista said:
Perhaps, Stalin was evil, but that didn't lead to armed conflict. We do not have to go around the world and try to stomp out every evil person or leader in the world.
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Bad example. Stalin died at the end of WW2. Otherwise there would have been a conflict given Russias expanisist policies. Im not saying we go stomping around the world, just saying eventually there will be conflict.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

iguanaman said:
Hope huh. That sounds exactly like Bush's strategy for Iraq only he didn't mind the casualties like Obama.
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On the contrary. Bush's strategy for Iraq involved action, shaping events and setting the conditions necessary for the building and self-sustainment of security infrastructure. Hope as a strategy largely involves inaction, refusing to take the shaping actions necessary, and leaving the future in the hands of the good intentions of people whose goals may be antithetical to yours.

You never answered my question about the possibility of us fighting side by side with Iran's Revolutionary Guard. How's that for strange bedfellows? What a twisted web we weave....
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It would be a strange thing, to be fighting against Iranian proxies in Syria, but with them in Iraq. As for that last bit, I don't think we've ever been deceptive of our intentions in the Middle East, mind you, because I don't think we know what our intentions are. We lack any kind of coherent national strategy or desired major endstates at this point - we are wholly reactive and not even particularly good at that.

As for the idea of fighting with Iran, I am not so sure that the dichotomy you picture is wholly accurate. War is agreeably zero sum, and the extent to which we attack ISIL is, agreeably, to a large degree the extent to which we enable IRGC-QF / local affiliate operations against them. That does not mean that we have to "fight with them" - we can pursue our own priorities against ISIL.
 
Re: Iraq insurgents take Saddam's home town in lightning advance

Jack Hays said:
FDR ran in 1932 on a deficit cutting platform.:peace
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Yet changed it once in office. Like I said, listened to the deficit scolds and took US back into the GOP depression in 1937 when he cut spending 10%. Look at ANY scale the US was slowly getting out of the depression until then.
 
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