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Big Loss of Teachers Union in California

Fishstyx said:
I firmly think public sector unions should be illegal. As far as the private sector, I'm fine with it as long as no one is forced to join if they don't want to.
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Understood. Me, if public sector unions were only negotiating work conditions, I'd be fine with that. They should be banned from negotiating compensation, unless the people paying that compensation, the taxpayers, get a vote on their union contracts. Private sector unions I'm ok with. I can choose whether or not to give private sector unions my money.
 
The Man said:
Because we pay their salaries, pensions, benefits, etc.. No public sector unions should be legal, unless those paying their salaries, the taxpayers, get a direct vote on their union contracts.
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We elect the Board of Education, which approves the contracts, and (in my state) directly vote on all increases to sales or property taxes, which are the taxes that fund education most significantly.
 
Medusa said:
yes thats why education shouldnt be a part of any market.
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That doesn't explain why education shouldn't be part of any market.A lousy teacher should be fired on the spot regardless of seniority and a great teacher should be rewarded and or promoted on the sport regardless of seniority. Its how education system should work its how the labor market works.
 
Fishstyx said:
Huge loss: teachers unions in California case - POLITICO.com

This case is a pretty big deal. Hope the movement spreads across the nation like a wild fire. Think the biggest is getting rid of statutory restrictions in firing d-bag teachers making extremely expensive and timely. The immediate dismissal of substandard teachers is a no brainer. The removal of the tenure system would help to prevent complacency in tenured teachers.
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Good. 'Bout time.


azgreg said:
Good. I think unions could be good, but more often than not they are more destructive.
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They have evolved to that point, yes. One might even say they've become self-destructive.


Deuce said:
Yeah, I mean look at how much worse working conditions have gotten since unions first formed.
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This is a classic example that the human species doesn't know when to stop. Doesn't know when well enough is good enough. Unions do indeed serve a positive purpose, and we would not be well-served if they were to disappear completely, but when they started blindly defending clearly grossly incompetent workers, as just one example, that was too much and it was only a matter of time when they'd get reined in.


Medusa said:
education shouldnt be a part of labor market
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They are part of the labor market. They're teachers, there's nothing special or magical about them.


Fishstyx said:
Safe working conditions have been codified. So if thats their only useful purpose, they're not necessary anymore. The union pendulum has swung way past the point of reason. Any objective observer can see it.
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Not everything has been codified, nor should it be. If unions were to disappear entirely there'd be a lot of backsliding.


MaggieD said:
It's been my experience that most of the people supporting public sector unions are (or were) members of same. Hardly impartial.
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Not I. I have never been a public employee (excepting military service). I disagree with the premise simply because not even government employees should be treated as second-class citizens. In America we have the right to organize. There is no "America Jr", nor should there be.
 
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Deuce said:
Yeah, I mean look at how much worse working conditions have gotten since unions first formed.
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Yup. We have OSHA, and a lot of other good benefits from unions that fought for those things back in the turn of the last century up to about 50 to 60 years ago... then the corruption started, and it became nothing but about money. More money. And public sector unions? They want my money. More of my money. Yup, those unions are great... well... at least they once were.
 
Medusa said:
but you speak as if they are your "paid workers "

teaching isnt easy..
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Public school teachers, public sector employees in general are our paid workers. Who said teaching is easy? I certainly didn't. I know that teaching isn't easy.
 
Amandi said:
Public sector unions are important to ensure proper work conditions are met. I do agree that no one should be forced to join a union but that would also mean that the union shouldnt be forced to defend them either.
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There are labor laws and agencies that enforce those laws that ensure proper work conditions are met. Unions are unnecessary for this in the modern age.
 
The Man said:
We (all taxpayers footing the bill) should get a vote on the contract.
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If that is feasible that can be done. However, the US is built on a representative government model and as such the School Board is who is elected to vote on the contract and pay. Hold the School Board accountable.
 
Fishstyx said:
There are labor laws and agencies that enforce those laws that ensure proper work conditions are met. Unions are unnecessary for this in the modern age.
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No, that is incorrect. Which agency ensures that overtime is distributed evenly? Which agency ensures that a supervisor cant change someones schedule on a whim? Which agency ensures that if you get suspended, the management investigated properly and it is a fair punishment?
 
Amandi said:
If that is feasible that can be done. However, the US is built on a representative government model and as such the School Board is who is elected to vote on the contract and pay. Hold the School Board accountable.
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It could easily be done, there's no question about that. I do currently hold my school board accountable, it's a high-turnover job.
 
Fishstyx said:
There are labor laws and agencies that enforce those laws that ensure proper work conditions are met. Unions are unnecessary for this in the modern age.
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Why do I sense that in other threads about other topics you'd decry too much government and say we should leave things to people to work out amongst themselves?
 
Amandi said:
No, that is incorrect. Which agency ensures that overtime is distributed evenly? Which agency ensures that a supervisor cant change someones schedule on a whim? Which agency ensures that if you get suspended, the management investigated properly and it is a fair punishment?
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Teachers don't get overtime, they're salaried, not hourly. They do get extra compensation for extra activities like coaching, clubs, etc. They deserve that.

They are salaried professionals. Schedules of salaried professionals can, and sometimes do fluctuate.
 
Amandi said:
No, that is incorrect. Which agency ensures that overtime is distributed evenly? Which agency ensures that a supervisor cant change someones schedule on a whim? Which agency ensures that if you get suspended, the management investigated properly and it is a fair punishment?
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Sadly, there is a belief that none of this can be done without unions. Bottom line, good managers do this without everyday. And if you work somewhere where they don't and you're a good performer, go somewhere else.

What you described is just as important for management as they want a productive work force. Unfairness is counter to producing that.
 
radcen said:
Why do I sense that in other threads about other topics you'd decry too much government and say we should leave things to people to work out amongst themselves?
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Well, that would depend on the topic. Generally, safety regulations exist for reason and most are reactive based on an incident(s). I would decry them too much as its what I do for a living. Laws and regulations should be reactive. There is nothing worse than a law or regulations dreamed up by bureaucrats sitting in a room in DC. Most are simply solutions looking for a problem which as utterly exploded in the last 10 years or so.
 
The teachers loss is the students gain.
 
Fishstyx said:
Sadly, there is a belief that none of this can be done without unions. Bottom line, good managers do this without everyday. And if you work somewhere where they don't and you're a good performer, go somewhere else.

What you described is just as important for management as they want a productive work force. Unfairness is counter to producing that.
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Ah, the standard Libertarian Utopian Fantasyland... if it isn't to your liking just go somewhere else. After all, good jobs are ripe for the picking, we just have to reach to the lowest branch and pick one.
 
Fishstyx said:
Well, that would depend on the topic. Generally, safety regulations exist for reason and most are reactive based on an incident(s). I would decry them too much as its what I do for a living. Laws and regulations should be reactive. There is nothing worse than a law or regulations dreamed up by bureaucrats sitting in a room in DC. Most are simply solutions looking for a problem which as utterly exploded in the last 10 years or so.
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Unions have indeed gone way beyond their legitimate purpose, but I believe that nobody would like the results if they were to go away completely. The domino-effect would not be good.
 
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