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Seven States Running Out of Water

This really isn't overly surprising. Weather is cyclical. Ever read the novel Grapes of Wrath? Ever here about the depression and the dust bowl that was the American midwest?
Yes, in fact I pointed to thousands of years of SW droughts and mentioned the Early Native American civilizations in that context.

CanadaJohn said:
Only thing changing now is that charlatans and snake oil salesmen like Al Gore want to convince you and the gullible in government that they can change the weather patterns and it will only cost you every living convenience and the wealth you worked hard for and built up in support of yourself and your family.
Actually, no one politicized this until your post. No one even mentioned warming or the more loaded AGW.
I should have added that disclaimer in my OP as well. The string was NOT meant to be political in any way.

But what has changed now from the time of the failures of those early Native Americans and the days of Dust Bowl, is the amount of pressure on the resources despite our improved tech.
How many (relatively new) cities like LA/Las Vegas/Phoenix can be even regionally supported in a 10 yr drought?
How long is Cyclical? It could be 2/3/10 years or anything in between in some areas or perhaps, if less likely, even more.
It's been 3+ for some areas already.
If it lasts even one or two more in some areas, it's going to have huge impact on everyone.
There's no infrastructure in place to stop regional problems if they continue.
1000 years ago, Tens of Millions of Northeasterners weren't depending on Intensive agriculture of the Anasazi for their lettuce and other produce.
 
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There is no way that desalinated water can be confused with the water we have here in the Pacific Northwest.

Actually it really can. It's hard to believe for some people but its no different than wine sommeliers who claim with certainty they can tell the difference between a $500 bottle of wine and a $5 bottle of wine--it often isn't true. Most of the 'taste' from your local tap water comes from the pipes not the water itself. I dug up a great line I remembered from a leading expert on desalination out of the University of Melbourne (Australia has many desalination facilities):

"SH If I gave you a glass of water from reclaimed sewage and a glass of water from a desal plant, would you be able to tell them apart?

SK I wouldn’t be able to tell which one was which if they had both passed through the same sort of reverse osmosis at the end. I could tell them apart from, say, rainwater, because they would be purer than rainwater."

And my favorite "You can taste the difference between rainwater and desalinated water, or reclaimed wastewater, because they are actually purer."

Which really makes sense when you think about it.

http://archive.uninews.unimelb.edu.au/news/5116/
 
Actually it really can. It's hard to believe for some people but its no different than wine sommeliers who claim with certainty they can tell the difference between a $500 bottle of wine and a $5 bottle of wine--it often isn't true. Most of the 'taste' from your local tap water comes from the pipes not the water itself. I dug up a great line I remembered from a leading expert on desalination out of the University of Melbourne (Australia has many desalination facilities):

"SH If I gave you a glass of water from reclaimed sewage and a glass of water from a desal plant, would you be able to tell them apart?

SK I wouldn’t be able to tell which one was which if they had both passed through the same sort of reverse osmosis at the end. I could tell them apart from, say, rainwater, because they would be purer than rainwater."

And my favorite "You can taste the difference between rainwater and desalinated water, or reclaimed wastewater, because they are actually purer."

Which really makes sense when you think about it.

Sandra Kentish on Water desalination : News : The University of Melbourne
Believe as you wish.
 
Once again, don't need desalinization. Besides by the time you build just one very expensive plant the droughts will be over until the next cycle. Just go to waterless toilets. Heck, you'll even save on sewerage.

Waterless toilets have been around a long time. For some reason, no one wants to go back to them:

th


and, as I said before, the state of California uses more water than nature gives us even in wet years. Conservation is all well and good, but, if agriculture is going to continue, water will have to be imported sooner or later, or a practical and inexpensive method of desalinization will have to be developed.

If not, count on the price of groceries to go through the roof.
 
When I hear about these kinds of things, one thing keeps pissing me off: Are they looking into solutions like collecting condensation - like one idea I read about years ago involving pumping cold sea water through tubes on which the fresh water condenses, and is collected? If not, why not at least look into it - or making it viable on a large scale? Better than panicking, and running around like a chicken with its head cut off, a ***potential*** low tech solution.
 
Believe as you wish.

Even if I was wrong I don't think it would be that big a deal. If the biggest obstacle to desalination is that some people aren't overly fond of the taste I'd say we've got a bright future ahead of us.
 
Once again, don't need desalinization. Besides by the time you build just one very expensive plant the droughts will be over until the next cycle. Just go to waterless toilets. Heck, you'll even save on sewerage.

That only works if you don't believe that this is part of a longer term trend in increased water requirement.
 
Even if I was wrong I don't think it would be that big a deal. If the biggest obstacle to desalination is that some people aren't overly fond of the taste I'd say we've got a bright future ahead of us.
People will use it if they must. The desalination process effectively removes salts, but not other things you find in ocean water.
 
People will use it if they must. The desalination process effectively removes salts, but not other things you find in ocean water.

Actually reverse osmosis (RO) which is the process used in most desalination facilities is a comprehensive purification process. It is the same process used in most of your water treatment plants. So that isn't true.
 
Even if I was wrong I don't think it would be that big a deal. If the biggest obstacle to desalination is that some people aren't overly fond of the taste I'd say we've got a bright future ahead of us.

The biggest obstacle is cost. It might work for domestic use, but not for agriculture, at least not unless a much less expensive way can be found to accomplish it.
 
Actually reverse osmosis (RO) which is the process used in most desalination facilities is a comprehensive purification process. It is the same process used in most of your water treatment plants. So that isn't true.
Treating river water from melting snow packs is different that treating sea water.
 
If these seven states got rid of their golf courses their water shortages would be greatly mitigated.
Golf courses are the single greatest waste of water on the planet.
conflict12-golf-course-desert_13153_600x450.jpg
Attempting to turn areas in the desert south west into the verdant green hills of Scotland during a water shortage is nothing short of insane.
 
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Treating river water from melting snow packs is different that treating sea water.

The process is actually very similar. It's just your psychological perception that a melting snowpack is clean and pristine that makes you think it's very different. That being said the process of desalination is much more expensive and involved than your local water treatment plant! But the physics and chemistry involved are nearly identical (assuming your facility uses RO).
 
The biggest obstacle is cost. It might work for domestic use, but not for agriculture, at least not unless a much less expensive way can be found to accomplish it.

Probably true. That's why I cited a 10-15 year development period because I think graphene and other advances in material science will dramatically reduce the cost making this plausible even for agriculture but not in the interum where it will be used to alleviate drought conditions for drinking water.
 
Probably true. That's why I cited a 10-15 year development period because I think graphene and other advances in material science will dramatically reduce the cost making this plausible even for agriculture but not in the interum where it will be used to alleviate drought conditions for drinking water.
You are an optimist.
And I hope you're right.
 
California wouldn't have drought problems if it fell into the Pacific Ocean.

When California finally gets some rain...after all the wildfires, it probably will slide off into the ocean.
 
I know, lets put a huge population base in the desert south west. Who's idea was that? Really though people gravitate to good weather and the south west has it so we get down to the fact that there are just too many people.

It's not too many people, it's too many Yankees. Folks from up north or back east who think we can turn deserts into green suburbs where the homeowner needs to mow once a week. American Exceptionalism pretending we don't have to obey the most basic laws of nature. Wichita Falls Tx has entered stage 5 drought, they have never had a stage 5 drought and so they had to hammer out what to do. NOW they are going to recycle water from the waste treatment plant. Seems we act only at the last second and with very poor results.

And on the subject of who gravitates to 'good weather' seems businesses gravitate toward short term gains because they know they can skip out whenever the well literally runs dry- both in incentives and drinking water. :doh

So it appears businesses moving to the bribes blossoming in the arid lands think it's a good idea.... ;)
 
It's not too many people, it's too many Yankees. Folks from up north or back east who think we can turn deserts into green suburbs where the homeowner needs to mow once a week. American Exceptionalism pretending we don't have to obey the most basic laws of nature. Wichita Falls Tx has entered stage 5 drought, they have never had a stage 5 drought and so they had to hammer out what to do. NOW they are going to recycle water from the waste treatment plant. Seems we act only at the last second and with very poor results.

And on the subject of who gravitates to 'good weather' seems businesses gravitate toward short term gains because they know they can skip out whenever the well literally runs dry- both in incentives and drinking water. :doh

So it appears businesses moving to the bribes blossoming in the arid lands think it's a good idea.... ;)

We don't have good weather around here, at least not in the summer time. The heat is unbearable at times.

On the other hand, there isn't much in the way of winter.

But people don't come here to enjoy the dirty air and hot weather. People are here because we have some of the most productive farmland in the country.

Now, people do come to the California coast because of the climate. It never gets cold, seldom gets hot, and hardly ever rains. That last one can be a bit of a problem however.
 
Please spare me the faux-macho "you're an alarmist" claim.
No one is going to go thirsty anytime soon, but this is a serious issue already affecting food prices nationwide.
Summer, oft the driest season is approaching in many places, it could get worse. It could go on for years more in some of these areas too.
This also is a big issue in the arid states viability.
Texas is booming with plenty of oil but little water.

Seven states running out of water
Alexander E.M. Hess and Thomas C. Frohlich
USA Today via 24/7 Wall St.
6:30 a.m. EDT June 1, 2014
Seven states running out of water
I read it was 5 states, either way, bad news for sure.
 
Waterless toilets have been around a long time. For some reason, no one wants to go back to them:

th


and, as I said before, the state of California uses more water than nature gives us even in wet years. Conservation is all well and good, but, if agriculture is going to continue, water will have to be imported sooner or later, or a practical and inexpensive method of desalinization will have to be developed.

If not, count on the price of groceries to go through the roof.

Not so. Though they have been around since the 60s the waterless toilets, at the time propane based, were never advertised to gain common acceptance. Now, they run on propane/natural gas or electric. Cost is about 28 cents a "flush" and the new varieties are fully self contained. Just empty the sterile ash once a week. Once again, no water usage, no sewerage needed.

Incinolet3.jpg
 
If these seven states got rid of their golf courses their water shortages would be greatly mitigated.
Golf courses are the single greatest waste of water on the planet.
View attachment 67167501
Attempting to turn areas in the desert south west into the verdant green hills of Scotland during a water shortage is nothing short of insane.

Vegas has to have those green golf courses for this visiting from Saudi Arabia though.
 
The biggest obstacle is cost. It might work for domestic use, but not for agriculture, at least not unless a much less expensive way can be found to accomplish it.

When it comes to agriculture the biggest obstacle to production is there is no large body of salty water nearby. It is a lack of timely rains when the crops need it. 2 feet of snow mean far less than 2 inches of rain in July when it comes to cotton, soybeans, and corn. A cold, dry winter followed by poor spring rains and a late freeze is a disaster in the winter wheat belt.

Irrigation is impractical for the vast majority of acres producing wheat, corn, beef, cotton and soybeans. Roughly 11% of cropland- non vegetable- is irrigated. Huge amounts of water is used in agriculture but that is dwarfed by the usage in areas that have sidewalks and pizza delivery.

Climate change means a lot more than a few degrees of air temp change... it means the end of rain cycles we rely on for the 100s of millions of dryland crop acres we rely on. It perversely means millions of other acres are delayed in planting due to late freezes and torrential rains, then yields cut short due to early frosts. Once a killing frost hits it doesn't matter if there is a month more of warm weather.

High tech MAY keep the tap water flowing along the coasts, but it won't stop West Texas and Western Oklahoma turning into Arizona. We need rain, good old fashion 1.0 legacy systems wet... :peace
 
That only works if you don't believe that this is part of a longer term trend in increased water requirement.

Actually, no. Not only do you free up the water it takes for the flushing, but sewerage treatment takes a ton of water, you free that up as well. It could be done right now and mass production would bring the cost of the units way down (they currently cost what the expensive flush varieties do).
 
Not so. Though they have been around since the 60s the waterless toilets, at the time propane based, were never advertised to gain common acceptance. Now, they run on propane/natural gas or electric. Cost is about 28 cents a "flush" and the new varieties are fully self contained. Just empty the sterile ash once a week. Once again, no water usage, no sewerage needed.

Incinolet3.jpg
I can imagine if one of those propane ones is defective and it explodes while youre taking a dump... might not be pretty.
 
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