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Judge throws out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage

It's the STATE who's demanding SSM be made legal over the will of the people. Statism (they actually have their grubby fingers in all marriage)

As it is only. a small protion of society have any say at all. ( the point of my discontent)
Except you are trying to use that "say" to violate the constitution, to suppress someone else's freedom based on nothing more than your personal disapproval of their actions. You don't believe in small government, you believe in using the government as the club to enforce your will onto others. Sorry, friend, this is America. That's not how we do things here. You want to restrict someone's freedom, you need a better basis for that restriction than thinking gay sex is icky.

Unless you are ultra-authoritarian, in which case you believe the government should be empowered to restrict choices arbitrarily.
 
It DID pass and how could anyone mischaracterized the core issue of Prop 8 ?

What misinformation could have possibly forced people to either change their mind or not understand what the primary issue was ?

Thats ridiculous.

People knew exactly what they were voting for.

And your not going to convince me that a vast majority of Americans have changed their opinions on Gay marriage in just 5 years.

Especially after they've learned what type of people are pushing for the legalization of Gay marriage.

Bullies, that hypocritically claim their rights are being violated while they seek out and attack those who disagree with their agenda.

If anything the activist have turned people who were on the fence on the issue against their agenda.

" If you disagree with us we'll do our best to publicly humiliate you, force you out of your proffesion and we wont stop until we're satisfied. "

So spare me this hyperbolic rehtoric that someone's rights are being violated.

Read this.

Same-Sex Marriage Support Reaches New High at 55%
 
Not in trailer parks?

Yeah, I'm starting to see where all this is coming from.

LOL !!

Yes, the Murder Capital of the world is a "Trailer Park" in some redneck Southern State.

NOT ! Actually, inner cities all over America are a great example of what happens when the Traditional Family unit is missing all together.

Murder, poverty, drug abuse, crime and dependence and misery and its getting worse

FYI, trailer parks are home to allot of illegal aliens now.

The old stereotype of white trash living in mobile homes is a bit dated.
 


Yep what I figured.

Young Americans are Ok with it.

Well they were also Ok with Obama as they equated plattitudes and talking points to Presidential qualifications.

You see where that led us.

So I'm not really surprised.

Maybe their opinions should be subject to a mathematical divisor that would counter their exponential lack of Common sense and life experience ?
 
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Religious doctrine is more rock solid than anything the State ever concocted. It's time tested and IMO everlasting compared to most States that last a couple of hundred years then self-destruct. Which, if this country continues down the road it's on, will surely also do.

But hey, whatever you want to put your 'faith' in.

So you would prefer to live in a theocracy?
 
Property and power ? Huh ?


I live in Texas, a State that has yet to be overrun by the activist that seek out to destroy millenia old sacred institutions.

.

In your posts, have you yet demonstrated the harm that SSM will do? To individuals, marriage, or society? How it will destroy a 'millenia old institution?'
 
It DID pass and how could anyone mischaracterized the core issue of Prop 8 ?

What misinformation could have possibly forced people to either change their mind or not understand what the primary issue was ?

Thats ridiculous.

People knew exactly what they were voting for.

And your not going to convince me that a vast majority of Americans have changed their opinions on Gay marriage in just 5 years.

Especially after they've learned what type of people are pushing for the legalization of Gay marriage.

Bullies, that hypocritically claim their rights are being violated while they seek out and attack those who disagree with their agenda.

If anything the activist have turned people who were on the fence on the issue against their agenda.

" If you disagree with us we'll do our best to publicly humiliate you, force you out of your proffesion and we wont stop until we're satisfied. "

So spare me this hyperbolic rehtoric that someone's rights are being violated.

As I said, "barely passed". And if taken even a year later, it wouldn't have passed.

A couple of things that were said about Prop 8 that weren't true.

Lies and False Consequences: The Movement to Pass Prop 8


Consequence 1: Children in public schools will be taught that both traditional marriage and same-sex marriage are okay. The California Education Code already requires that health education classes instruct children about marriage. (§51890) Therefore, if the definition of marriage is changed, children will be taught that marriage is a relation between any two adults.
Rebuttal 1: No provision of the Education Code requires any teacher to teach that same-sex marriage is "just as good" as traditional marriage. Teachers are to teach respect for marriage and committed relationships, and Proposition 8 will not change this law.
Consequence 2: "Churches will be sued [over their tax-exempt status] if they refuse to allow same-sex marriage ceremonies in their religious buildings that are open to the public. Ask whether your pastor, priest, minister, bishop, or rabbi is ready to perform such marriages in your chapels and sanctuaries.
Rebuttal 2: "The California Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage cannot have any federal tax consequences, and the Court so noted explicitly in its decision. The Supreme Court also noted that its ruling would not require any priest, rabbi or minister to perform gay marriages, which should be self-evident because of the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion."
Consequence 3: Religious adoption agencies will be challenged by government agencies to give up their long-held right to place children only in homes with both a mother and a father. Catholic Charities in Boston has already closed its doors because of the legalization of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts.
Rebuttal 3: If this situation ever faces a legal challenge in California, it will not matter whether Proposition 8 passes because California already has on its books (and has for several years) laws granting domestic partners (homosexual and heterosexual) the same civil rights as married couples....Therefore, the passage or failure of Proposition 8 will have no effect on the placement of orphans with gay couples in California.
Consequence 4: Religions that sponsor private schools and which provide housing for married students will be required to provide housing for same-sex couples, even if it runs counter to church doctrine, or lose tax exemptions and benefits.
Rebuttal 4: California's existing non-discrimination laws give all registered domestic partners, whether heterosexual or homosexual, the right of equal access to family housing. To date, however, no California private religious school has been forced to comply with this law. Neither the passage nor the failure of Proposition 8 will have any bearing on the law relating to family student housing in California.
Consequence 5: Ministers who preach against same-sex marriages will be sued for hate speech and could be fined by the government. It has already happened in Canada, one of six countries that have legalized gay marriage.
Rebuttal 5: This would never be an issue in the United States because we have far more liberal freedom of speech and religion laws than does Canada. There have been no hate speech lawsuits in Massachusetts, which has been a gay marriage state for four years.
Consequence 6: It will cost you money. A change in the definition of marriage will bring a cascade of lawsuits. Even if courts eventually find in favor of a defender of traditional marriage (highly improbable given today's activist judges), think of the money—your money, your church contributions—that will have to be spent on legal fees.
Rebuttal 6: In actuality, the net fiscal effect of Proposition 8 will be an influx of revenue to California because of the anticipated increase in marriage ceremonies and the related boon to the economy. The change in the definition of marriage will not bring a "cascade of lawsuits" because heterosexual and homosexual registered domestic partners already have all the rights of married couples in California.

That stuff listed above is what was being put out about same sex marriage and how Prop 8 was supposed to stop this "horrible" stuff from happening. All fearmongering.
 

That's actually interesting. I'm in favor of gay marriage because I don't really care who marries who, but 55% is lower than I thought it would be. That's only slightly over half of all Americans, hardly an overwhelming majority. I see the younger the person the higher the support, which isn't a surprise.
 
Yep what I figured.

Young Americans are Ok with it.

Well they were also Ok with Obama as they equated plattitudes and talking points to Presidential qualifications.

You see where that led us.

So I'm not really surprised.

Maybe their opinions should be subject to a mathematical divisor that would counter their exponential lack of Common sense and life experience ?

The fastest growing support for same sex marriage is among older people. Young people already support it. And that isn't going to change with age. Experience and history shows us that when it comes to equal rights, people don't normally change their minds when they support equal rights because there is no reason for them to do so. They don't have those stubborn beliefs of "well this is just wrong, and so no one should be allowed to do it" ingrained into them.
 
Then by definition those would not be "Traditional".

Millions of straight Americans do not choose 'traditional' marriage either.

They are allowed to get that marriage license and have whatever type of relationship they choose...even an 'open' marriage or for the convenience of benefits. They can still legally marry. They may not honor marriage at all...so why should gays, many of whom do respect and honor marriage (& God), be denied?
 
In your posts, have you yet demonstrated the harm that SSM will do? To individuals, marriage, or society? How it will destroy a 'millenia old institution?'

The same harm as selling beer on Sunday or allowing a beer commercial to actually show someone drinking a beer will cause (none at all). Many laws are passed to prevent freedom of choice for those that have no "proper morals" according to a majority of voters. I agree 100% that SSM will not ruin America, but at the same time cannot see how a few folks having "a strong personal desire" to change existing laws makes a law suddenly invalid. The basis for this judicial decision is the 14th amendment passed in 1868 - what, exactly, triggered this "we must allow SSM" other than activist judges?
 
America is already ruined morally, there is no sanctity in marriage as it is now. Allowing SSM doesn't degrade it much more than it already has been :shrug:

People need to be self driven to live moral lives, not have the government dictate that. If that's what it takes then as a society we are failing.
 
As Justice Scalia cogently remarked in his dissent, “if [Windsor] is meant to be an equal-protection opinion, it is a confusing one.” Windsor, 133 S. Ct. at 2706 (Scalia, J., dissenting). Although Windsor did not identify the appropriate level of scrutiny, its discussion is manifestly not representative of deferential review. See id. (Scalia, J., dissenting) (observing that “the Court certainly does not apply anything that resembles [the rational-basis] framework” (emphasis omitted)). The Court did not evaluate hypothetical justifications for the law but rather focused on the harm resulting from DOMA, which is inharmonious with deferential review. See, e.g., McGowan v. State of Md., 366 U.S. 420, 425-26 (1961) (explaining that, under rational-basis scrutiny, legislatures are presumed to have acted constitutionally “despite the fact that, in practice, their laws result in some

God I love how Scalia's dissents keep getting used against him.

Edi:
http://www.aclupa.org/files/8714/0061/1059/WHITEWOOD_OPINION.pdf
The PA decision, for those interested. I don't expect anyone crying "activist judge" will read it, much less provide any rebuttal, but it's interesting stuff to a nerd like me.
 
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That's actually interesting. I'm in favor of gay marriage because I don't really care who marries who, but 55% is lower than I thought it would be. That's only slightly over half of all Americans, hardly an overwhelming majority. I see the younger the person the higher the support, which isn't a surprise.

Why would you think it was so high? It was only two years ago that any polls (besides the most liberal) were showing majority support for same sex marriage. That is actually a really good jump in support.

Heck, we compare that to support for interracial marriage and you see how amazing that jump truly is. When interracial marriage came up to the SCOTUS, the national polls on it showed that only around 20% of the population supported blacks and whites being allowed to marry, despite most states having already legalized it.

Polling On Interracial Marriage Suggests Long But Inevitable Road For Same-Sex Couples | ThinkProgress

Majority support for interracial marriage didn't happen until the 1990s, over 25 years after the Loving decision struck down all interracial marriage bans.

Yet, with same sex marriage, just 10 years ago (or less) we were seeing support less than 40% and opposition at almost 60%. That is a change of about 20% in just about 10 years. Whereas with interracial marriage it took almost 20 years to see that shift from about 30% support to over 50% support for it.

Same-Sex Marriage Support Reaches New High at 55%
 
America is already ruined morally, there is no sanctity in marriage as it is now. Allowing SSM doesn't degrade it much more than it already has been :shrug:

Great, so you have no objection then. The harm caused by same sex marriage bans is far greater than the alleged-but-never-defined harm caused by same sex marriage.
 
No, the issue is NOT just about legalities.

If that were the case then these people would have been satisfied with Civil Unions.

No, this is activism, a coordinated attack of a age old definition that transcends Religion and cultures and races.

The only activism it is about is being treated equally by the law, I still call this rights but I will stop using that term in this case if it makes you feel better. Civil unions and legal marriage do not convey the same legal benefits. There is nothing that can be done to protect the "age old definition" except find a dictionary that defines the word the way you want it and keep that dictionary forever.
 
Saying "what", Clown ?
That our judges(90% of them) are kinder, more humane, more intelligent than the general public ??
 
Great, so you have no objection then. The harm caused by same sex marriage bans is far greater than the alleged-but-never-defined harm caused by same sex marriage.

I don't have an objection :shrug: I support SSM on a legal level.
 
As I said, "barely passed". And if taken even a year later, it wouldn't have passed.

A couple of things that were said about Prop 8 that weren't true.

Lies and False Consequences: The Movement to Pass Prop 8




That stuff listed above is what was being put out about same sex marriage and how Prop 8 was supposed to stop this "horrible" stuff from happening. All fearmongering.

It passed in California, in one of the Bluest States in the Nation.

And people were simply given the choice to either endorse Gay marriage or not.

They chose not to.

These LGBT activist are trying to convince enough gullible people that they currently have overwhelming support for their iniatives.

They dont.

Case in point.

Houstons Lesbian Myor is trying to push through a new "Human Rights Ordinance" .

It would forbid Bussinesses in the City Limits to discriminate based on sexual identification.

Among its restrictions Bussiness's would not be allowed to restrict a person who identifies with the alternate sex from entering the bathroom of their choice.

Funny thing, Groups of Black Houstonians are the one's who are primarily rallying against it.

And it looks like there's not a chance in hell this ordinace will make it through a City Council vote.

This " massive wave of suppprt " for LGBT iniatives isn't really there.
 
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That's actually interesting. I'm in favor of gay marriage because I don't really care who marries who, but 55% is lower than I thought it would be. That's only slightly over half of all Americans, hardly an overwhelming majority. I see the younger the person the higher the support, which isn't a surprise.

Wouldn't matter if it was five percent. The constitution is the supreme law of the land, not the ballot box, and it's funny how often the people screaming "individual liberty" and "get back to the constitution" forget that.
 
It passed in California, in one of the Bluest States in the Nation.

And people were simply given the choice to either endorse Gay marriage or not.

They chose not to.

These LGBT activist are trying to convince enough gullible people that they currently have overwhelming support for their iniatives.

They dont.

Case in point.

Houstons Lesbian Myor is trying to push through a new "Human Rights Ordinance" .

It would forbid Bussinesses in the Cott Limits to discriminate based on sexual identification.

Among its restrictions Bussiness's would not be allowed to restrict a person who identifies with the alternate sex from entering the bathroom of their choice.

Funny thing, Groups of Black Houstonians are the one's who are primarily rallying against it.

And it looks like there's not a chance in hell this ordinace will make it through a City Council vote.

This " massive wave of suppprt " for LGBT iniatives isn't really there.

Who said it was a "massive wave" everywhere? But the support does exist and the more people fire someone for merely being gay or for supporting gay rights, even in small towns or communities, places where many expect such things to occur, the more you are going to see support for gay rights increase. Most people are good and see that others should not be treated wrongly or unfairly based on their sexuality or sexual orientation (or even their gender identity).

I posted that case from SC where an entire town is against their police chief being fired by the mayor because she (the chief) is gay. That kind of thing is what leads to the massive jumps we are seeing in gay rights/gay marriage support. The lies (like those told during the Prop 8 campaign) are not being believed by most anymore. People are realizing that same sex couples should have the right to get married despite the fearmongering being attempted.
 
The same harm as selling beer on Sunday or allowing a beer commercial to actually show someone drinking a beer will cause (none at all). Many laws are passed to prevent freedom of choice for those that have no "proper morals" according to a majority of voters. I agree 100% that SSM will not ruin America, but at the same time cannot see how a few folks having "a strong personal desire" to change existing laws makes a law suddenly invalid. The basis for this judicial decision is the 14th amendment passed in 1868 - what, exactly, triggered this "we must allow SSM" other than activist judges?

Very thought provoking post.
 
LOL !!

Yes, the Murder Capital of the world is a "Trailer Park" in some redneck Southern State.

NOT ! Actually, inner cities all over America are a great example of what happens when the Traditional Family unit is missing all together.

Murder, poverty, drug abuse, crime and dependence and misery and its getting worse

FYI, trailer parks are home to allot of illegal aliens now.

The old stereotype of white trash living in mobile homes is a bit dated.

I live in a rural area and I know what I'm referring to. Take your blinders off....
 
Wouldn't matter if it was five percent. The constitution is the supreme law of the land, not the ballot box, and it's funny how often the people screaming "individual liberty" and "get back to the constitution" forget that.

I didn't think marriage was mentioned in the Constitution? I personally have pro-gay marrage views having nothing to do with the Constitution.

My point was that 5% over half isn't as large a support level as I thought it would be. That's on the hairy edge of being less than half of Americans supporting it.

I do have to personally disagree with your dismissal of the ballot box impact. I believe the peoples' voice to be the most compelling argument of all, personally. JMO.
 
Yep what I figured.

Young Americans are Ok with it.

Well they were also Ok with Obama as they equated plattitudes and talking points to Presidential qualifications.

You see where that led us.

So I'm not really surprised.

Maybe their opinions should be subject to a mathematical divisor that would counter their exponential lack of Common sense and life experience ?

You might want to poll the people supporting SSM in this thread on how old they are. I'm 53 and no, not a lesbian. ("Not that there's anything wrong with that!" lol)

I'm tempted to start a forum poll on just that...however I dont know the demographics for age in general on this forum.
 
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