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US accuses China of cyber-espionage on American companies

Rainman05

Rainman05

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US accuses China of cyber-espionage on American companies | News | DW.DE | 19.05.2014

The United States has indicted five Chinese military officials on cyber-espionage charges. The individuals are accused of hacking into six US companies and stealing trade secrets, the Justice Department said.
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A US grand jury on Monday filed charges against the five Chinese military personnel alleging they stole secrets from companies in the nuclear power, metals and solar products industries in order to benefit Chinese state-owned companies. The charges say the China-based alleged hackers broke into US computers to gain a competitive advantage and damage companies.
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Wake-up call'
Holder described the charges as the first of their kind against state actors, saying they should serve as a "wake-up call."
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China rejects allegations
The country's Foreign Ministry on Monday criticized the US indictment, saying it would "damage Sino-American cooperation and mutual trust."
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Aside from the fact that Holder is getting his moment of fame to actually look like he's doing something... China needs to be slapped on the nose. it's doing government sponsored cyber terrorism for a long time now and it's not even sorry. It doesn't even care if you know or if you don't know.

Honestly, it's a really scary thing, this China. It's invading other nations territorial waters like it does now in Vietnam. It presses claims it has no right to. It sponsored cyber terrorism. It encourages corruption in africa by offering cheap loans to african countries so they don't take EU and USA money which has strings attached to govt reforms for democracy. It's not a good country and has no interest in fair play in a fair world. And these cyber terrorism attacks just prove it more and more.

And ofc, they're not really the only ones. Depending on whether you believe Snowden or not:

China says it is the victim of similar attacks from the US. The country's military is believed to be among the main targets for the US National Security Agency and US Cyber Command. News reports based on documents leaked by former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden revealed that the US for years spied on Chinese telecommunications giant Huawei.
The US has also been accused of conducting economic espionage abroad, including spying on Brazilian oil giant Petrobras.
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And ofc the whole NSA scandal... the internet is becoming a very dangerous playground for hacking attacks between nations.
 
Well they are right and everyone knows it.
 
This is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black. :lamo
 
Henry David said:
This is a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black. :lamo
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The major difference is that the US probably doesn't do much in the way of industrial espionage.
 
How do you know?

Government is known to hate competition.


joG said:
The major difference is that the US probably doesn't do much in the way of industrial espionage.
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There is already a thread on this subject here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...harge-chinese-army-personnel-cyberspying.html.

joG said:
The major difference is that the US probably doesn't do much in the way of industrial espionage.
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Nah, the U.S. does that too. It helps to know what other countries and their companies are developing in order to stay one step ahead. What would astonish me is if there was a major power out there that was not doing this sort of thing. Any country with the capability would almost definitely utilize it to get an edge in business or politics.
 
CalGun said:
How do you know?

Government is known to hate competition.
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I can only presume from my informal interaction with the people involved, of which I had quite a bit. They were not, of course allowed say much, but the opinions on such activities were rather negative to the extent, that it seemed to me that the would have generally condemned espionage outside of rather narrowly defined national interest. This is not proof. Obviously. but it did form a relatively firm impression in my mind.
 
Demon of Light said:
There is already a thread on this subject here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...harge-chinese-army-personnel-cyberspying.html.

Nah, the U.S. does that too. It helps to know what other countries and their companies are developing in order to stay one step ahead. What would astonish me is if there was a major power out there that was not doing this sort of thing. Any country with the capability would almost definitely utilize it to get an edge in business or politics.
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The US would certainly use information of high national interest, say for a development in rocket technology or epidemic control. And as the US is set up along private production principles, the rockets would be produced by private companies. Similarly the US has used intelligence commercially, when for instance Carter made public the Persons that had been bribed by Airbus to receive a contract. But otherwise? I would doubt it as a general rule.

But do you have any knowledge of the legality of such espionage?
 
joG said:
The major difference is that the US probably doesn't do much in the way of industrial espionage.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH Now that is funny as hell! When are you opening in Vegas?
 
PeteEU said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH Now that is funny as hell! When are you opening in Vegas?
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;)

I know it is very hard to believe that others could be better than oneself. But, you see, your answer says more about your bend of mind than about anything.
:cool:

It is the same thing, when people here in Germany say, that everyone bribes for business. They don't believe it could be different and try to justify what they see going on in their companies, when they cannot overlook it. Usually, of course, people will just act as if it didn't happen.
 
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Good enough reason to impose economic sanctions on China IMO.

The USA needs to become much more isolationist anyways for economic recovery, especially in regards to China.
 
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Rainman05 said:
US accuses China of cyber-espionage on American companies | News | DW.DE | 19.05.2014






Aside from the fact that Holder is getting his moment of fame to actually look like he's doing something... China needs to be slapped on the nose. it's doing government sponsored cyber terrorism for a long time now and it's not even sorry. It doesn't even care if you know or if you don't know.

Honestly, it's a really scary thing, this China. It's invading other nations territorial waters like it does now in Vietnam. It presses claims it has no right to. It sponsored cyber terrorism. It encourages corruption in africa by offering cheap loans to african countries so they don't take EU and USA money which has strings attached to govt reforms for democracy. It's not a good country and has no interest in fair play in a fair world. And these cyber terrorism attacks just prove it more and more.
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China, like all nations with major Intelligence operations engages in a range of espionage, including industrial espionage. This isn't a big surprise.

In terms of China's hardening positions with regard to disputed areas, China's actions reflect its growing power. In the past, China was more restrained simply because China was weaker, not because China held different views. Given the importance of the waterways in question and overlapping territorial claims, including those held by U.S. allies, this is one of the big reasons the U.S. can ill-afford to step back from the world as some in the neo-isolationist movement might desire. This does not mean that the U.S. and China need to embark on a path of confrontation, but cooperation in areas of common interest coupled with careful management of areas where their interests diverge will be important.
 
joG said:
The major difference is that the US probably doesn't do much in the way of industrial espionage.
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And what information makes you assign this 'probability'? That they haven't told you?

Considering the wars we waged in Central & South America for various private companies like United Fruit Company and others, I am skeptical that the US does not conduct industrial espionage.

Considering that the NSA & DEA gather and record every single cellphone call made in, to or from the Bahamas of all places, how much further is it to conduct industrial espionage in countries with industry?
 
joG said:
;)

I know it is very hard to believe that others could be better than oneself. But, you see, your answer says more about your bend of mind than about anything.
:cool:

It is the same thing, when people here in Germany say, that everyone bribes for business. They don't believe it could be different and try to justify what they see going on in their companies, when they cannot overlook it. Usually, of course, people will just act as if it didn't happen.
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Have you even followed the Snowden case?
 
I'm not sure why there is so much hesitation to acknowledge that major Intelligence agencies engage in industrial espionage. Technologies, information, and knowledge often have national security implications. Hence, it makes sense for Intelligence agencies to be aware of such technologies, information, and knowledge, understand it, and ensure that their nations can apply it. That such technology is under patent is irrelevant. Otherwise, countries risk deliberately putting themselves at a qualitative disadvantage when it comes to national security. To do so would be an enormous failure of their national security responsibilities, even as national security is among the primary functions of government.
 
Merkel called and she wants her phone back.
 
Henry David said:
And what information makes you assign this 'probability'? That they haven't told you?

Considering the wars we waged in Central & South America for various private companies like United Fruit Company and others, I am skeptical that the US does not conduct industrial espionage.

Considering that the NSA & DEA gather and record every single cellphone call made in, to or from the Bahamas of all places, how much further is it to conduct industrial espionage in countries with industry?
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What I would expect, would be that the information collected might seem to those on whom the information was collected to be industrial in its nature. The drug barons must seethe at times and some acquaintances at Airbus were furious, when the names of those who had been bribes was published by the White House.
 
PeteEU said:
Have you even followed the Snowden case?
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Link? I would be glad to learn.

PS: I mean a link that is more robust than only a statement in a German interview. After all, he is trying to get into Germany.
 
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The Obama Administration is proving once again how big of a joke it is. How do they expect to detain these men? How can they possibly claim the moral high ground when our government is spying on France's energy companies?
 
As noted previously in this thread, China, like all nations with major Intelligence operations engages in a range of espionage, including industrial espionage. This never was a big surprise. The indictments, though, were unprecedented.

Now that the markets have sifted through the events, including China's retaliatory measures, it appears that the developments have led to more favorable prospects for China's technology industry. From Bloomberg.com:

Investors in Chinese technology shares can thank the U.S. Justice Department for turning their unprofitable bets into the stock market’s biggest winners.

The benchmark gauge of mainland technology companies has rallied 5.5 percent since May 19, when the U.S. indicted five Chinese officials and put them on the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s most-wanted list for cyber crimes. After the move, China excluded Microsoft Corp.’s Windows 8 from a state purchasing order, asked banks to switch from International Business Machines Corp. (IBM) servers to a local brand and said it will vet technology firms for national-security breaches.

FBI

Although the initial market reaction is short-term in nature, long-term dynamics could be involved. First, China has the world's second largest economy, which is still on a trajectory to become the world's largest in the medium-term. Second, with a growing middle class and business sector--even as China faces other very significant challenges--China's capital investment in technology will likely grow rapidly through at least the medium-term. Third, with U.S. companies in broad range of technology or knowledge-related fields (consulting firms were hit by restrictions, too), Chinese firms will play a larger role for investors seeking to leverage the growth in China's technology investment.

IMO, existing counterespionage practices ranging from with behind-the-scenes diplomacy to improved cyber protections would have been a more appropriate response, especially as such espionage is par for the course among all countries with major Intelligence capabilities. The path that was taken could only have invited Chinese retaliation, as China would not want to appear weak. The more traditional approach could have mitigated such a harsh reaction and limited the impact on American companies doing business in China.
 
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