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Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says[W:46]

Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

OnWisconsin said:
Sure your point makes sense if you only read the first few paragraphs of that article. Did you also read the part where it states the average thickness in 1980 was 3.8 meters and in recent years the average thickness was 1.9 meters?

The issue is not total coverage, it is ice thickness. If temperatures drop below a certain level ice coverage will increase, however the duration of those temperatures is what determines ice thickness. In recent years you have comparable coverage, however, it melts sooner and more thoroughly due to the decreased thickness of the ice. This poses a problem, mainly because the thinner the ice, the quicker it will melt and therefor causes a landslide effect, so-to-speak.

The article also states that while recent years there have been colder temperatures, one or two years of increase in coverage does not change the trend of multiple years of decrease.

What has been steadily happening is a loss of ice coverage for many years followed by a few years of cold temperatures then a return to steady loss of ice coverage. So your explanation of 1.8 - 4.5 degrees colder has no bearing, it was only for a year or so and does not change the steady trend that has been happening.


From the article (at the bottom)

"Most of the Arctic Ocean used to be covered by multiyear ice, or ice that has survived at least two summers and is typically 10 to 13 feet (3 to 4 meters) thick. This older ice has declined at an even faster rate than younger ice and is now largely relegated to a strip along the northern coast of Greenland. The rest of the Arctic Ocean is dominated by first year ice, or ice that formed over the previous winter and is only 3 to 7 feet (1 to 2 meters) thick."
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But the overall volume is going up as well:

Measurements from ESA’s CryoSat satellite show that the volume of Arctic sea ice has significantly increased this past autumn.

The volume of ice measured this autumn is about 50% higher compared to last year. In October 2013, CryoSat measured about 9000 cubic km of sea ice – a notable increase compared to 6000 cubic km in October 2012.

Over the last few decades, satellites have shown a downward trend in the area of Arctic Ocean covered by ice. However, the actual volume of sea ice has proven difficult to determine because it moves around and so its thickness can change.

CryoSat was designed to measure sea-ice thickness across the entire Arctic Ocean, and has allowed scientists, for the first time, to monitor the overall change in volume accurately.

About 90% of the increase is due to growth of multiyear ice – which survives through more than one summer without melting – with only 10% growth of first year ice. Thick, multiyear ice indicates healthy Arctic sea-ice cover.

CryoSat shows Arctic sea ice volume up 50% from last year | Watts Up With That?
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Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

j-mac said:
But the overall volume is going up as well:
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So what you are saying is that 1 year of increase negates 30 years of steady decrease?

That's why they base these on averages, there have been years in the past where it increased as well. However, the overall trend since 1979 has been a steady decrease in coverage.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

j-mac said:
But the overall volume is going up as well:
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From your own article:

"While this increase in ice volume is welcome news, it does not indicate a reversal in the long-term trend."
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

OnWisconsin said:
From your own article:

"While this increase in ice volume is welcome news, it does not indicate a reversal in the long-term trend."
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Yes, I saw that....It should include "yet"....
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

OnWisconsin said:
So what you are saying is that 1 year of increase negates 30 years of steady decrease?

That's why they base these on averages, there have been years in the past where it increased as well. However, the overall trend since 1979 has been a steady decrease in coverage.
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Funny how those who believe in 'climate change' can easily stop believing in 'climate change', even while it's happening.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Grant said:
Funny how those who believe in 'climate change' can easily stop believing in 'climate change', even while it's happening.
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What does that even mean? Who stopped believing in climate change? Certainly not me.
 
,
American said:
They aren't doing **** in China, come on.
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I just showed that they are. You are simply ignoring it. Do you want nation pity? Trying to make excuses? Again, be specific.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

OnWisconsin said:
What does that even mean? Who stopped believing in climate change? Certainly not me.
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Didn't you use the quote, "While this increase in ice volume is welcome news, it does not indicate a reversal in the long-term trend." Ergo, this change is clearly taking place but you are going on past averages to support a very questionable theory. The past should not figure in to the present when it comes to 'change'.

There has been no global warming for over 17 years now and that, to some, is welcome news. To others its a disappointment.
 
Boo Radley said:
,

I just showed that they are. You are simply ignoring it. Do you want nation pity? Trying to make excuses? Again, be specific.
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I don't need to make excuses, the stakes are too damn high to be at the kind of disadvantage the extremists want. It's too costly to let China get away cheap while we lose $billions and spend $billions more on compliance. Get them onboard, then come talk to me. We can maintain the status quo, and that's all.
 
American said:
I don't need to make excuses, the stakes are too damn high to be at the kind of disadvantage the extremists want. It's too costly to let China get away cheap while we lose $billions and spend $billions more on compliance. Get them onboard, then come talk to me. We can maintain the status quo, and that's all.
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Well, we could become China, if that's your ideal form of government. However, your claim was environmentalist don't try to change China. You were wrong.
 
Boo Radley said:
Well, we could become China, if that's your ideal form of government. However, your claim was environmentalist don't try to change China. You were wrong.
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While China has made gains on some other airborne toxins, the PM 2.5 data is far from reassuring in a country that annually has hundreds of thousands of premature deaths related to air pollution. In an unreleased December report relying on government data, the World Bank said average annual PM 2.5 concentrations in northern Chinese cities exceeded American limits by five to six times as much, and two to four times as much in southern Chinese cities.
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Let me know when they catch up, then we'll continue our improvements.
 
American said:
Let me know when they catch up, then we'll continue our improvements.
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Them catching up is not the same as environmentalists not targeting them. Again, you're trying to move the goals posts. Btw, should we do everything China does? As I asked earlier, is China your ideal form one government?
 
Boo Radley said:
Them catching up is not the same as environmentalists not targeting them. Again, you're trying to move the goals posts. Btw, should we do everything China does? As I asked earlier, is China your ideal form one government?
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You're the liberal, and you ask me a question like that. China is leftwing.
 
American said:
I think you know me better than that, and you need to show the relevance of your question.
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It's easy. You seem to support what they do. No environmental regulations to speak of. No worker safety or pay issues. Isn't this what you want?
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Grant said:
Didn't you use the quote, "While this increase in ice volume is welcome news, it does not indicate a reversal in the long-term trend." Ergo, this change is clearly taking place but you are going on past averages to support a very questionable theory. The past should not figure in to the present when it comes to 'change'.

There has been no global warming for over 17 years now and that, to some, is welcome news. To others its a disappointment.
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There have been years in the past where they have gained ice coverage as well, but the years following that they lost more than they gained. The net ice coverage over the last 30 years has been reduced. One year of growth means nothing as there have been other years of growth.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

OnWisconsin said:
There have been years in the past where they have gained ice coverage as well, but the years following that they lost more than they gained. The net ice coverage over the last 30 years has been reduced. One year of growth means nothing as there have been other years of growth.
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Que the poor polar bear stranded on an iceberg...If you put coke in his hand I may she'd a tear.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

j-mac said:
Que the poor polar bear stranded on an iceberg...If you put coke in his hand I may she'd a tear.
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Just sharing. And remember, NASA is the source:

Ice sheet in Antarctica has melted past ‘point of no return,’ NASA says

THOMAS WAGNER: Pretty confident, in that — and one thing you have to understand is this release today — and there were actually two studies that came out — this idea has been talked about since the 1970s.

And the whole scientific community has been working on this for a long time, not just these studies with satellites, but ships that have gone to the area and actually measured the water temperatures have actually even gone out and made a hole along with the National Science Foundation in one of the ice shelves.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you said you found out that certain things have happened and they are happening at a faster rate. Give us sort of a tangible example about it. Help us understand what exactly is going on there.

THOMAS WAGNER: Sure.

If you went to Antarctica and pulled the ice off, in the region of West Antarctica that we just looked at, you actually wouldn’t see land under there. What you would see is ocean and a few islands popped up. And that’s what makes this ice so at risk for rapid loss.

But the ice so thick that it displaces all the water and kind of sits down on the bedrock. But what’s happened is that it’s retreated away from its coastal area. And as it retreats and thins, it is supposed to float on that water, and that allows it to speed up and flow more rapidly into the ocean.

Antarctic ice sheet past
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

j-mac said:
Que the poor polar bear stranded on an iceberg...If you put coke in his hand I may she'd a tear.
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Yet another conservative who cares nothing for conservation, nor realizes the overall planetary implications that no ice shelf brings with it.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

Boo Radley said:
Just sharing. And remember, NASA is the source:

Ice sheet in Antarctica has melted past ‘point of no return,’ NASA says

THOMAS WAGNER: Pretty confident, in that — and one thing you have to understand is this release today — and there were actually two studies that came out — this idea has been talked about since the 1970s.

And the whole scientific community has been working on this for a long time, not just these studies with satellites, but ships that have gone to the area and actually measured the water temperatures have actually even gone out and made a hole along with the National Science Foundation in one of the ice shelves.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you said you found out that certain things have happened and they are happening at a faster rate. Give us sort of a tangible example about it. Help us understand what exactly is going on there.

THOMAS WAGNER: Sure.

If you went to Antarctica and pulled the ice off, in the region of West Antarctica that we just looked at, you actually wouldn’t see land under there. What you would see is ocean and a few islands popped up. And that’s what makes this ice so at risk for rapid loss.

But the ice so thick that it displaces all the water and kind of sits down on the bedrock. But what’s happened is that it’s retreated away from its coastal area. And as it retreats and thins, it is supposed to float on that water, and that allows it to speed up and flow more rapidly into the ocean.

Antarctic ice sheet past
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NASA on this has been politicized. And remember Appealing to Authority is a logical fallacy.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

OnWisconsin said:
Yet another conservative who cares nothing for conservation, nor realizes the overall planetary implications that no ice shelf brings with it.
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Oh please spare me. Political agenda doesn't equal conservation.
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

j-mac said:
NASA on this has been politicized. And remember Appealing to Authority is a logical fallacy.
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Yes, everyone who doesn't fit your narrative is corrupt. Odd, they were saying the same things under Bush. They're doing the science, doing the actual observation. But those sitting at their computer screens no more. Color me shocked. :coffeepap
 
Re: Climate change is here and action needed now, new White House report says

j-mac said:
NASA on this has been politicized. And remember Appealing to Authority is a logical fallacy.
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Except when the authorities are....well, authorities on a very complex and technical subject.

If you don't use authorities in this argument, by definition, you are appealing to ignorance.

And virtually EVERY authority agrees that AGW is real and will be a big problem.
 
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