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Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting [W:93:217]

Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Del Zeppnile said:
If I'm in India I would respect the customs and wishes of the majority there. If I am attending a meeting in a predominantly Jewish community I would respect their customs. If I am in Provo Utah I would respect a prayer by Mormons. But you don't respect the majority of Christians who want to have a prayer, so why do you accuse me of being disrespectful?



That is not a compromise. In the OP it was stated that the prayer began before the meeting, that is the normal custom, probably the same for most religions. Like I said, if the prayer bothers you don't enter the meeting until after the prayer, or you could just ignore the prayer. Sitting in your seat in silence would not disrupt what others are choosing to do, why isn't that good enough for you?



The time in question belongs to others as well. Don't impose your demands on them.
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Just another circular argument. You want your prayer to take place at the "traditional" time and you keep leaving out the main point. This is a government meeting. The old expression: "government of, by and for the people" doesn't mean the majority of people--it means all the people. If the solution to accommodating everyone means that there has to be two hours worth of various prayers before some meeting, then I would rather not have any prayers.

Meetings have schedules. If there are going to be prayers, then put them on the schedule. Of course, since I'm not aware of reserved seating at any government meeting, that would mean that the prayer participants are going to be in front or perhaps take up the whole room.

Again, I'm not against any religion and when in the appropriate forum, I either stand or sit quietly out of respect for others. At a government meeting--my government as well as yours, I expect neutrality across all beliefs. You want government to support the majority wherever that may be. I want government to accommodate all religions and if even 1 person wants to pray before your government meeting, then in the context of the OP, then they should have just as much right as you do to have their prayer aired. I hope the meeting takes 5 hours before business begins. If that is the case, then more people will agree with me.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

The odd part - the part I don't get - is why are these Atheists opposed to prayer? especially when they're not forced to partake in prayer.

Although they might not believe in God, they should believe in freedom and embrace freedom - even if a group is partaking in a harmless action such as prayer.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Mr.Nick said:
The odd part - the part I don't get - is why are these Atheists opposed to prayer? especially when they're not forced to partake in prayer.

Although they might not believe in God, they should believe in freedom and embrace freedom - even if a group is partaking in a harmless action such as prayer.
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Is your question only to atheists or to others as well?
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

AliHajiSheik said:
Is your question only to atheists or to others as well?
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I'm open to any opinion on the matter - not just Atheists.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

AliHajiSheik said:
Just another circular argument. You want your prayer to take place at the "traditional" time and you keep leaving out the main point. This is a government meeting. The old expression: "government of, by and for the people" doesn't mean the majority of people--it means all the people. If the solution to accommodating everyone means that there has to be two hours worth of various prayers before some meeting, then I would rather not have any prayers.
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Red herring - show me where any place has instituted two hours worth of prayers. Generally a invocation prayer lasts less than 20 seconds.

AliHajiSheik said:
Meetings have schedules. If there are going to be prayers, then put them on the schedule. Of course, since I'm not aware of reserved seating at any government meeting, that would mean that the prayer participants are going to be in front or perhaps take up the whole room.
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20 seconds or less of anything has failed to put a meeting off schedule. More time is spent clearing throats at meetings than any prayers.

AliHajiSheik said:
Again, I'm not against any religion and when in the appropriate forum, I either stand or sit quietly out of respect for others. At a government meeting--my government as well as yours, I expect neutrality across all beliefs. You want government to support the majority wherever that may be. I want government to accommodate all religions and if even 1 person wants to pray before your government meeting, then in the context of the OP, then they should have just as much right as you do to have their prayer aired. I hope the meeting takes 5 hours before business begins. If that is the case, then more people will agree with me.
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Most people will not agree with you because you are being petty.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Del Zeppnile said:
Red herring - show me where any place has instituted two hours worth of prayers. Generally a invocation prayer lasts less than 20 seconds.



20 seconds or less of anything has failed to put a meeting off schedule. More time is spent clearing throats at meetings than any prayers.



Most people will not agree with you because you are being petty.
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This is a government meeting of all citizens. My examples are examples, please don't be so literal. Also, reading comprehension would be appreciated. Finally, I was seeking a compromise and you will have none of it. Fine, got it. Don't expect me to agree. I hope your town has a major influx of members of some religion for which you do not agree and you get to listen to their prayers. My compromise is still valid, will you still be shouting about respecting the majority? You said you would, but I don't believe you.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

AliHajiSheik said:
This is a government meeting of all citizens. My examples are examples, please don't be so literal. Also, reading comprehension would be appreciated. Finally, I was seeking a compromise and you will have none of it. Fine, got it. Don't expect me to agree. I hope your town has a major influx of members of some religion for which you do not agree and you get to listen to their prayers. My compromise is still valid, will you still be shouting about respecting the majority? You said you would, but I don't believe you.
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There isn't an influx of much of anything, just the regular normal folks who aren't angered by the tradition of a invocation prayer. The idea of the prayer is to ask for guidance. Our Congress does the same as was the tradition of our founding fathers.

Your "compromise" is invalid. That is not a compromise it is a demand.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Del Zeppnile said:
There isn't an influx of much of anything, just the regular normal folks who aren't angered by the tradition of a invocation prayer. The idea of the prayer is to ask for guidance. Our Congress does the same as was the tradition of our founding fathers.

Your "compromise" is invalid. That is not a compromise it is a demand.
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Citizens get to make demands of government, I read that in a book somewhere. They don't, however, get to make demands of private groups.

A sad day when someone has to use the Congress as an example of a group to emulate.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

tres borrachos said:
I share your opinion. My husband & I neither one of us believes, but we completely respect those who do, and see most atheists as being very very intolerant of religious folks, to the degree that they show unabashed hatred towards them. It's ugly.
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If non-oppositional, non-vocal atheists are by definition quiet how do you know "most atheists as being very very intolerant of religious folks"? How do you determine what the majority of atheists are doing or saying?

I have never in my life had Muslims or Jews ring my doorbell to talk to me about their God. I have don't recall ever seeing a Muslim or Jewish billboard. I've never had Muslim or Jewish friends pull me aside at a social function and ask me about my soul. In my experience Muslims and Jews in America don't proselytize. That may be where atheists have problems with the small but loud minority of Christian extremists. No Muslim or Jew in America has ever proclaimed my damnation for not believing as they do. OK, a few Jews have told me to go to hell, but that was more related to their daughters and my misspent youth and as far as I can tell had nothing to do with religion.

Well, there was Rabbi Gerber, but he didn't tell me to go to hell or that I was going. I think he mentioned hell in terms of what he was going to give me if I continued to date his daughter. :lol:
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

The madness will never cease. It would have been much better to have no prayers. Here we go:

Less than three days after the Supreme Court ruled in Town of Greece v. Galloway that prayers before town meetings did not violate the Constitution’s ban on endorsing religion, a self-styled Satanist in Deerfield Beach, Florida has asked city officials to let him open a meeting with a Satanic prayer.

Chaz Stevens — who made headlines last December when he forced Florida Governor Rick Scott to allow him to erect an 8-foot-tall Festivus pole made of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer cans next to Deerfield Beach’s nativity manger — told the New Times that he recently converted from “Pabstfestidian” because “Satan is a cool dude.”
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Source
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Risky Thicket said:
The madness will never cease. It would have been much better to have no prayers. Here we go:



Source
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I say they let him do it! In keeping with the sincerity of his recent conversion to Satanism? I say that he should have to recite his "prayers" using the common understanding of Satanism he no doubt has subscribed to. So he should recite his satanic prayers as loud as possible, speaking backwards. Everyone at the meeting should bring cans of Cambell's Green Pea soup to anoint him with afterwards. :devil:
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Filthy McNasty said:
I say they let him do it! In keeping with the sincerity of his recent conversion to Satanism? I say that he should have to recite his "prayers" using the common understanding of Satanism he no doubt has subscribed to. So he should recite his satanic prayers as loud as possible, speaking backwards. Everyone at the meeting should bring cans of Cambell's Green Pea soup to anoint him with afterwards. :devil:
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Have you no respect for "morals".
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

AliHajiSheik said:
Citizens get to make demands of government, I read that in a book somewhere. They don't, however, get to make demands of private groups.

A sad day when someone has to use the Congress as an example of a group to emulate.
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My advise to you is to take a chill pill and don't worry about how someone else prays.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

danielpalos said:
Have you no respect for "morals".
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NIEN!
Man-Devil-In-Red-Costume-on-shutterstock.jpg
But seriously, this attention whore looks like he has no "business" at the council. Aside from disrupting it and making it all about religon, er "fictional" religion. Namely his fictional conversion to Satanisim! :lamo
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

rocket88 said:
It'll be interesting to see the actual language. What, for instance, constitutes a "good-faith effort at inclusion?"
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Its a terrible ruling because the good faith at inclusion bit is so extremely vague and subjective that it is unenforceable. So it is a tyranny of the majority situation.

Just more backwards decisions coming out of the usual 5-4 split favoring the 5 conservative fascists on the scouts.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Mr.Nick said:
It's funny. I'm a Christian (I don't practice as much as I should) but I see signs and billboards preaching ideas that I don't agree with personally and at times contradict my Christian beliefs, however those groups have every right to display their message - that is what makes the United States so great - First Amendment rights, yet atheists get bent when Christians advertise their ideas?

In my opinion it appears Atheists have a war against Christianity and potentially Judaism, however it seems Islam is immune from their disgust and hate - and that, within itself raises a lot of questions as to the motives of the Atheists - because the way I see it they're really not "non believers" they just hate CERTAIN religions. Now why - I can only speculate but I can only assume by their actions they have a vendetta against Jews and Christians.

Now of course I cannot claim every Atheist adheres to such a radical ideal but I do believe there is a majority that does.
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I don't know anything about you or what you believe, but what the 'atheists' have a war against isn't religion itself, it's that a big share of the public adherents to it, in the political arena, are more than happy to use religion as a basis for changes to public policy, and they are vehement and proud that the basis for those public policy positions is their version of Christianity. For example, it's likely that billboard was put up in support for some political cause, with real effects on real people. And when people oppose those policies because of the effect on real people (e.g. gay marriage, abortion), that's not a war on "Christianity" it is opposing policy, same way you might oppose gun control measures.

And similarly, the 'atheists' don't support Islam per se, but have reacted to what can only be described in many cases as overt, proud, in your face, anti-Muslim bigotry by so-called Christians. Just a few miles from me in Murfreesboro, TN, local "Christians" spent two years or more fighting the construction and then use of a Mosque. The bigotry was overt, and it's that bigotry that the 'atheists' are reacting to, not favoring Islam over Christianity. We had elected officials declaring Islam was a cult or way of life, not a religion protected by the Constitution, and certainly not protected like the Christianity ALL of these elected officials were proud to declare themselves followers of.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Mr.Nick said:
The odd part - the part I don't get - is why are these Atheists opposed to prayer? especially when they're not forced to partake in prayer.

Although they might not believe in God, they should believe in freedom and embrace freedom - even if a group is partaking in a harmless action such as prayer.
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So, Christians ought to also embrace freedom that contradicts their religious beliefs, such as gay marriage and abortion and contraception. I agree!

I've explained it in another post, but another way to look at it is the far right wing has become linked at the hip with evangelical Christianity/fundamentalism. So what you're seeing in many cases is a reaction to the politics of the political party that has embraced fundamental Christianity as the basis/justification for unpopular (among 'atheists') political positions.

It's sort of like the opposition to Islam. What most of us aren't opposed to is Islam, but the tiny sliver of Muslims who are terrorists. And in the eyes of many Muslims, the opposition to terrorists (which means putting Muslims as a group in the cross hairs), and to the Muslim governments that support terrorism looks like a general 'war on Islam." For most it's not a war on Islam, but a 'war' on some Muslims. No different with the left wing opposition to (war on) some Christians, who use Christianity as the basis for some policies.
 
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Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Filthy McNasty said:
NIEN!

But seriously, this attention whore looks like he has no "business" at the council. Aside from disrupting it and making it all about religon, er "fictional" religion. Namely his fictional conversion to Satanisim! :lamo
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It could simply be about the social concept of equality along with the concept of Individual Liberty.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

danielpalos said:
It could simply be about the social concept of equality along with the concept of Individual Liberty.
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Pretending to be a satanist so you can show up and offer satanic prayers? To champion equality and individual liberty? I generally find that efforts that start out as dishonest rarely end up ringing true. One wonders once this fella actually researches his new religion, which of the "prayers" satanist supposedly engage in he is going to use. :roll:
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Filthy McNasty said:
Pretending to be a satanist so you can show up and offer satanic prayers? To champion equality and individual liberty? I generally find that efforts that start out as dishonest rarely end up ringing true. One wonders once this fella actually researches his new religion, which of the "prayers" satanist supposedly engage in he is going to use. :roll:
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i believe we should be able to invest in morals testing companies on a for-profit basis along with drug testing companies under our form of Capitalism.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

danielpalos said:
i believe we should be able to invest in morals testing companies on a for-profit basis along with drug testing companies under our form of Capitalism.
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And this is relevant to what and why?
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

MrVicchio said:
Freedom is terrible thing for you isnt it?
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You can bow your head and pray anytime you like. Why do you and others want to force the rest of us to participate. If group prayer were not an attempt to force others to participate, then what is the point of group prayer in the first place?

Personally, I am of the opinion that prayer or any type of religious practice should not be allowed in any institution using taxpayer money.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Capster78 said:
You can bow your head and pray anytime you like. Why do you and others want to force the rest of us to participate. If group prayer were not an attempt to force others to participate, then what is the point of group prayer in the first place?

Personally, I am of the opinion that prayer or any type of religious practice should not be allowed in any institution using taxpayer money.
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It doesn't cost any money to pray.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

American said:
It doesn't cost any money to pray.
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No, but I, and many others, don't want to support religious practices with our taxpayer money. If you are standing in a government building or on government land, it costs money to pray. If we were to use that logic, then I should protest paying rent to my landlord. It does not cost them anything for me to breathe, sleep and eat in the building that I reside in.
 
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