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Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting [W:93:217]

Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

I'm confused. Does your religion not work if you can't involve it in government? Christians would be the first ones crying and whining when a town hall meeting gets opened up with a muslim prayer.

Its actually the opposite. People tried to use the government to force people not to pray together. The government shouldn't have anything to do with it. The people in that meeting choose to pray. The government shouldn't have any say in it.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

I'm confused. Does your religion not work if you can't involve it in government? Christians would be the first ones crying and whining when a town hall meeting gets opened up with a muslim prayer.
Actually that hypothetical has already been addressed in this thread. More than once. Switching a Muslim for a Satanist does not make the point any less facetious than it was before, when it was answered to directly. Then there is of course the matter of Muslim prayer times, and their need for clean water to do so. All that said, as was pointed out before, if said Muslim did request that Muslim prayer be permitted before the meeting, even if some Christians on hand did not like it? Too bad, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Outright denying one religion the right to prayer before the meeting while allowing it for another would be inconsistent and likely to land this whole matter back in a court. But all of this is quite academic. Allowing a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian to say or participate in a short prayer before a meeting is hardly an example of the Muslim, Jewish or Christian faith trying to establish any of their religions at said meeting. That suggestion is idiotic on its face. :roll:
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Its actually the opposite. People tried to use the government to force people not to pray together. The government shouldn't have anything to do with it. The people in that meeting choose to pray. The government shouldn't have any say in it.

It's a meeting of the government.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Its actually the opposite. People tried to use the government to force people not to pray together. The government shouldn't have anything to do with it. The people in that meeting choose to pray. The government shouldn't have any say in it.

I agree with you 100%...


...except the part that it's a government meeting.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Actually that hypothetical has already been addressed in this thread. More than once. Switching a Muslim for a Satanist does not make the point any less facetious than it was before, when it was answered to directly. Then there is of course the matter of Muslim prayer times, and their need for clean water to do so. All that said, as was pointed out before, if said Muslim did request that Muslim prayer be permitted before the meeting, even if some Christians on hand did not like it? Too bad, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Outright denying one religion the right to prayer before the meeting while allowing it for another would be inconsistent and likely to land this whole matter back in a court. But all of this is quite academic. Allowing a Muslim, a Jew or a Christian to say or participate in a short prayer before a meeting is hardly an example of the Muslim, Jewish or Christian faith trying to establish any of their religions at said meeting. That suggestion is idiotic on its face. :roll:

Starting off a meeting with a Christian prayer establishes Christianity as a part of that meeting.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Again you aren't answering the question.

You are comparing entertainment to TALKING TO GOD. That is a false equivalency. While you see prayer as a benign activity, it's a religious ritual. Your religion offends me. Your neighbor's religion offends me. Nobody should have the right to use a public business forum to impose their religion on me when I'm at a public/government environment seeking solutions or raising concerns about my community, or problem solving pubic issues...and I and everybody else becomes a captured audience to your praying. I don't care why you want to pray, just do it where others who don't subscribe to your beliefs aren't infringe on.

Holding people captive in an government meeting and dumping religion on them is NOT separation of church and state. Yes, captive. These venues are NOT for religious rituals, but anyone wanted to confront their local governments over public issues....are forced to listen to a religious ritual. NO, I'm NOT ****ing leaving. I want the ritual to leave. It has no place in public meetings that are important for addressing community, state, or higher issues.


At any any given public meeting - unless in a purely ethnic community, there will be a majority number in attendance who subscribe to a given religion along with varying minority numbers who subscribe to other religions. Some have no religious affiliations. Somehow I doubt that prayers invoked in public meetings will be simultaneously congruent to the beliefs among all attending.

People of different religious beliefs have the tendency to want to systematically cull out those with differing beliefs - if given the chance. A predominate religious belief within a given district can impact the outcome of public issues. So the question is: Are those outcomes always going to be good for the community at large? Maybe ...but maybe not. Depends on how minority groups or individuals are affected.

250 years ago the Framers were very much aware of the strife and bloodshed caused by religion in Europe that it was on the top of the list of the Bill of Rights, which prevented government from creating a religion or allow any given religion of authority over government. And for good reason. People have wars over religion because people don't want a particular faith to be infringed on. The numbers of types of Religious beliefs in our country alone are MANY. And even ones that are considered to be closely related can't even agree on what they believe.

History tells us all that religion and government don't mix or go together very well. Religions, even today feel compelled to want to control the workings of government. The Pope would be sitting in the Oval Office today...if he could...and I mean in a heart beat. So would the Mullah in Iran.

I bet few people in this forum can't even post alike reasons for why they pray. Or how they pray. Or even what they think prayer is...or isn't.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

There really is something special about someone using numbers they created themselves, to say that the country that leads in that stat is falling "behind". :lamo

The word "cling" is one you drug into this is one of your previous post instead of addressing what was said to you. I see you still can't address anything said to you, but you say you are up for days more of this? No doubt you'd love several more days to try and explain how your tortured rationale really really is all about "seperation of church and state". Except you don't have the slightest grasp of the matter. Particularly since you keep trying to act as if a prayer before a meeting is the government (either at the local or national level) trying to establish a religion. Which is just asinine. :roll:

My tortured rationale is simple. Your religion offends me. Your neighbors religion offends me. When people go to public/government meetings it's to address community concerns, issues, or problems. But once getting to a government building are town hall meeting to all who attend for government business is virtually forced to listen to a religious ritual, which may well infringe on their personal beliefs.

But your tortured rationale is embedded in the inability to understand the meaning of Separation of Church and State and all of the underlying issues that go with it. You're stuck in some naive assumption that religious rituals performed in government/public forums are just a little benign icebreakers use to crank up the meeting.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Starting off a meeting with a Christian prayer establishes Christianity as a part of that meeting.
Not in the last few hundred years. Nor has the practice lead to the establishment of a national religion. Not that you and like minded souls realize that.:doh

My tortured rationale is simple. Your religion offends me. Your neighbors religion offends me. When people go to public/government meetings it's to address community concerns, issues, or problems. But once getting to a government building are town hall meeting to all who attend for government business is virtually forced to listen to a religious ritual, which may well infringe on their personal beliefs.

But your tortured rationale is embedded in the inability to understand the meaning of Separation of Church and State and all of the underlying issues that go with it. You're stuck in some naive assumption that religious rituals performed in government/public forums are just a little benign icebreakers use to crank up the meeting.
The separation of church and state is a fine thing, which I support whole heartedly. Your brain rape of it, not so much. You just keep repeating yourself and repeating your avoidance of pretty much everything not said by you.

As for the fact that you are offended? Once again it is time for Mr. Fry to remind us about your right to be offended and its importance in the grand scheme of things.
Fry Offended.jpg
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Not in the last few hundred years. Nor has the practice lead to the establishment of a national religion. Not that you and like minded souls realize that.:doh

The separation of church and state is a fine thing, which I support whole heartedly. Your brain rape of it, not so much. You just keep repeating yourself and repeating your avoidance of pretty much everything not said by you.

As for the fact that you are offended? Once again it is time for Mr. Fry to remind us about your right to be offended and its importance in the grand scheme of things.


Despite your confusion about the topic, let me share with you that you don't support Separation of Church and State. You simply can't grasp the magnitude of it's relevance to our way of life...that it's the only thing that keeps us from falling into religious oppression. You don't get it...and I get that you don't get it. Obviously there are a number of folks in the DP forum who doesn't get it.

Me...Whine? Moi? You've been co-opted into believing that church and government can work in concert. Praise be to the lord.

Most people in this forum can't even define what prayer means or is. You are among those. If you had clue...you'd not be in support of religious rituals performed in government/public meetings, which are designed for the purpose of problem solving public issues.

If people want to pray before a meeting is called into business...knock their ****ing lights out. Pray until they drop. Once they call a meeting to order and business begins the meeting is NOT a venue to impose religious rituals.

Waddling in your ignorance regarding Separation of Church and State isn't making you shine.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Despite your confusion about the topic, let me share with you that you don't support Separation of Church and State. You simply can't grasp the magnitude of it's relevance to our way of life...that it's the only thing that keeps us from falling into religious oppression. You don't get it...and I get that you don't get it. Obviously there are a number of folks in the DP forum who doesn't get it.

Me...Whine? Moi? You've been co-opted into believing that church and government can work in concert. Praise be to the lord.

Most people in this forum can't even define what prayer means or is. You are among those. If you had clue...you'd not be in support of religious rituals performed in government/public meetings, which are designed for the purpose of problem solving public issues.

If people want to pray before a meeting is called into business...knock their ****ing lights out. Pray until they drop. Once they call a meeting to order and business begins the meeting is NOT a venue to impose religious rituals.

Waddling in your ignorance regarding Separation of Church and State isn't making you shine.
You just keep offering the same reheated and overheated pablum. You are proudly a member of the "I'm offended" brigade. Bad news for you is the answer is too bad, your being offended means nothing and is worth nothing. You will get to keep on being offended as prayer continues to be held before meetings from coast to coast. As it turns out, stamping your feet and complaining about what offends you does not equate the establishment of a national religion in this country. For the last few hundred years or the new few hundred. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

You just keep offering the same reheated and overheated pablum. You are proudly a member of the "I'm offended" brigade. Bad news for you is the answer is too bad, your being offended means nothing and is worth nothing. You will get to keep on being offended as prayer continues to be held before meetings from coast to coast. As it turns out, stamping your feet and complaining about what offends you does not equate the establishment of a national religion in this country. For the last few hundred years or the new few hundred. :mrgreen:

Yes, I do keep repeating. There's an old saying: "Repetition strengthens and confirms." I'm offended that people are violating not only my rights, but the rights of many. Religions don't have to right to impose their dogma on me. No matter the flavor.

Religious rituals don't belong in government nor public meetings. That IS separation of church and state, which you simply don't support.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Yes, I do keep repeating. There's an old saying: "Repetition strengthens and confirms." I'm offended that people are violating not only my rights, but the rights of many. Religions don't have to right to impose their dogma on me. No matter the flavor.

Religious rituals don't belong in government nor public meetings. That IS separation of church and state, which you simply don't support.
You just keep offering the same reheated and overheated pablum. You are proudly a member of the "I'm offended" brigade. Bad news for you is the answer is too bad! Your being offended means nothing and is worth nothing. You will get to keep on being offended as prayer continues to be held before meetings from coast to coast. As it turns out, stamping your feet and complaining about what offends you does not equate the establishment of a national religion in this country. For the last few hundred years or the new few hundred.:2razz:
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

You just keep offering the same reheated and overheated pablum. You are proudly a member of the "I'm offended" brigade. Bad news for you is the answer is too bad! Your being offended means nothing and is worth nothing. You will get to keep on being offended as prayer continues to be held before meetings from coast to coast. As it turns out, stamping your feet and complaining about what offends you does not equate the establishment of a national religion in this country. For the last few hundred years or the new few hundred.:2razz:

Repetition Strengthens and Confirms. You, sir, are anti-separations of church and state. You are in support of religious rituals in government/public meetings.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Repetition Strengthens and Confirms. You, sir, are anti-separations of church and state. You are in support of religious rituals in government/public meetings.

Sigh. Separation of church and state is not even in the Constitution.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

If me and the majority of the people in that meeting wanted to hear mozart before the town hall meeting, yes it will be played.

And that doesn't answer my question. You said people shouldn't be allowed to pray out loud because you don't like it. How is that any different from anything else that people don't want to hear? Don't duck the question.

We seem to be hearing is a lot of whoopee and yahoo for prayer prior to local council and committee meetings by people who never attend said meetings.

If it isn't on the agenda it doesn't happen. If it isn't on the agenda then the room and the time must be scheduled by someone. If the room and the time is scheduled by the government entity that is conducting the meeting then it must be on the agenda.

Nothing comes without unintended consequences.

Here's a scenario that I can easily envision happening:

Beyond contentious topics being on the agenda the public rarely, if ever attends local government meetings and damn near never attends committee meetings. For the most part, without a reporter of some sort attending, local governments and committees could conduct meetings while smeared nekkid in bear grease and the public would be none the wiser. As far as prayer goes I'd venture to say that damn near 95% of the people reading this have no clue as to the history of prayer before local and committee meetings that personally affect them. In truth does prayer really matter in majority of these meetings one way or the other? Hell, no. Nobody goes anyway. No one is really that interested in local government unless it has to do with taxes or the building of a local mosque.

Seating will become an issue in some local government meetings when prayers are held prior to a meeting with hot agenda items. Seating could well become political as those not wishing to hear the prayer wait outside the meeting room until the prayer is completed. Prayer listeners go in first and get the best seats. When the meeting agenda contains a hot topic the meeting will likely be SRO. Those who don't want to hear the prayer get the worst seats or no seats at all. This will become an issue unless people are permitted to enter before the prayer and reserve their seats. At contentious meetings even seat saving may become nasty.

If the hot topic on the agenda happens to be one that attracts religious extremists block seating will become a political issue. Count on that.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Repetition Strengthens and Confirms. You, sir, are anti-separations of church and state. You are in support of religious rituals in government/public meetings.
Except I'm pro-separation of church and state, but I am anti the brain rape you want to commit on the clause. Know why? Church and State: Still separate two hundred and twenty nine years on with no end in sight!

This matter is not really about your personal sense of offense and guess what? It is not about me personally either. Or what you peronsally think of me or if you think I'm really religious or not. So I'd quit trying to make this about me if were you; for obvious reasons. ;)
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Sigh. Separation of church and state is not even in the Constitution.

Henrin...long time no see. Can we keep that way in the future.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Except I'm pro-separation of church and state, but I am anti the brain rape you want to commit on the clause. Know why? Church and State: Still separate two hundred and twenty nine years on with no end in sight!

This matter is not really about your personal sense of offense and guess what? It is not about me personally either. Or what you peronsally think of me or if you think I'm really religious or not. So I'd quit trying to make this about me if were you; for obvious reasons. ;)

You don't have the capacity to grasp the implications related to this decision by the S.C.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

You are comparing entertainment to TALKING TO GOD. That is a false equivalency. While you see prayer as a benign activity, it's a religious ritual. Your religion offends me. Your neighbor's religion offends me. Nobody should have the right to use a public business forum to impose their religion on me when I'm at a public/government environment seeking solutions or raising concerns about my community, or problem solving pubic issues...and I and everybody else becomes a captured audience to your praying. I don't care why you want to pray, just do it where others who don't subscribe to your beliefs aren't infringe on.

Thats bull **** and you know it. Someone praying is not them imposing their religion on you. It is simply them praying. People have every right to pray in any forum they wish out loud or in private. The only problem you have is you don't want to hear it, which is the case in many public settings. Religious people have the right to say what they want to who they want at whatever venue they want the same as you. And that includes prayer.

Holding people captive in an government meeting and dumping religion on them is NOT separation of church and state. Yes, captive. These venues are NOT for religious rituals, but anyone wanted to confront their local governments over public issues....are forced to listen to a religious ritual. NO, I'm NOT ****ing leaving. I want the ritual to leave. It has no place in public meetings that are important for addressing community, state, or higher issues.

I dont think anyone is saying you should leave or not attend. You think that because you dont want to hear something someone shouldn't be allowed to say it. That is just ignorant. I am glad the supreme court decided to stay out of town hall meeting procedure.

You don't have a freedom from religion. People are allowed to openly practice their religion in front of you and any other oppressive people. They can't force you to follow their religion but they don't have to hide it from you. Any opportunity they feel the need to pray out loud they absolutely should.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

We seem to be hearing is a lot of whoopee and yahoo for prayer prior to local council and committee meetings by people who never attend said meetings.

If it isn't on the agenda it doesn't happen. If it isn't on the agenda then the room and the time must be scheduled by someone. If the room and the time is scheduled by the government entity that is conducting the meeting then it must be on the agenda.

Nothing comes without unintended consequences.

Here's a scenario that I can easily envision happening:

Beyond contentious topics being on the agenda the public rarely, if ever attends local government meetings and damn near never attends committee meetings. For the most part, without a reporter of some sort attending, local governments and committees could conduct meetings while smeared nekkid in bear grease and the public would be none the wiser. As far as prayer goes I'd venture to say that damn near 95% of the people reading this have no clue as to the history of prayer before local and committee meetings that personally affect them. In truth does prayer really matter in majority of these meetings one way or the other? Hell, no. Nobody goes anyway. No one is really that interested in local government unless it has to do with taxes or the building of a local mosque.

Seating will become an issue in some local government meetings when prayers are held prior to a meeting with hot agenda items. Seating could well become political as those not wishing to hear the prayer wait outside the meeting room until the prayer is completed. Prayer listeners go in first and get the best seats. When the meeting agenda contains a hot topic the meeting will likely be SRO. Those who don't want to hear the prayer get the worst seats or no seats at all. This will become an issue unless people are permitted to enter before the prayer and reserve their seats. At contentious meetings even seat saving may become nasty.

If the hot topic on the agenda happens to be one that attracts religious extremists block seating will become a political issue. Count on that.

This isnt a matter of religious extremists. So I am going to exclude that.

To your other point that noone attends them, yes they absolutely do. Especially in smaller towns. And if those people who are attending choose to say a prayer how does that infringe on the rights of anyone? How does it actually negatively effect anyone? Truth is it doesn't. These people are the people of that town mostly coming to have their voice heard on an issue and/or offer ideas on how to fix/address certain issues. Prayer does have a mental effect on those who believe it. It may just be in their heads, noone really knows. But it may help them personally. And with these meetings individual contributions matter. These individuals matter.

I could see an issue if they forced everyone to pray with them. Or if they refused to hear anyone who didnt pray. Soemthing along those lines, yes that would be wrong. But them choosing to is not wrong.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Thats bull **** and you know it. Someone praying is not them imposing their religion on you. It is simply them praying. People have every right to pray in any forum they wish out loud or in private. The only problem you have is you don't want to hear it, which is the case in many public settings. Religious people have the right to say what they want to who they want at whatever venue they want the same as you. And that includes prayer.

I dont think anyone is saying you should leave or not attend. You think that because you dont want to hear something someone shouldn't be allowed to say it. That is just ignorant. I am glad the supreme court decided to stay out of town hall meeting procedure.

You don't have a freedom from religion. People are allowed to openly practice their religion in front of you and any other oppressive people. They can't force you to follow their religion but they don't have to hide it from you. Any opportunity they feel the need to pray out loud they absolutely should.

Of course I have the right to freedom from religion. And NO you can't pray out loud ANYPLACE YOU WANT! That's absurd and ignorant belief on your part. Hell, you can't even pray out loud during a movie...at a theater. They'll kick your ass out.

When a government / public meeting convene, that is not a venue to engage in religious rituals. It is a distraction from public business. Further more, it's on the taxpayer's tab.
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

You don't have the capacity to grasp the implications related to this decision by the S.C.

Implications? You mean like people who hate on anything religious because its religious and attempt to suppress it at every opportunity constantly whining?
 
Re: Supreme Court ruling favors prayer at council meeting

Of course I have the right to freedom from religion. And NO you can't pray out loud ANYPLACE YOU WANT! That's absurd and ignorant belief on your part. Hell, you can't even pray out loud during a movie...at a theater. They'll kick your ass out.

When a government / public meeting convene, that is not a venue to engage in religious rituals. It is a distraction from public business. Further more, it's on the taxpayer's tab.

You do not have the right from religion. You have the right to choose your own religion but not to force others to hide their religion is your presence.
 
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