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United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage

danarhea

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Same-sex marriage bans have faced a number of legal challenges over the years, but a new lawsuit from the United Church of Christ is apparently the first challenge in the courts to invoke religious liberty. The suit will ask a district court in North Carolina to strike down the state's laws barring same-sex marriages, in part because a provision that makes it a misdemeanor for clergy to perform the ceremonies violates the church's religious freedom. A number of same-sex couples have also joined the suit, petitioning for the right to marry.

Very interesting lawsuit. So the question is this? If the United Church of Christ, which supports gay marriage, is not allowed to perform gay marriages, then are their first amendment religious freedoms being violated? They have certainly opened up a can of worms with this lawsuit.

Discussion?

Article is here - United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage.

Note to mods - Title would not fit, so I had to take a couple of words out to make it fit.

Second note to mods. The source changed the title, so now it doesn't match at all. LOL.
 
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Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

It's official. The world's gone mad.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

I'm guessing the NC legislators didn't think of this wrinkle.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

It's official. The world's gone mad.

I thought that was the starting presumption for a paleocon.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

I've been making this same point about Reform Judaism for a while. Banning SSM is imposing some religious views on other religions, not just on the non-religious. Not that there's a difference legally.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

Ok, this is just funny. Guess the fundamentalists can't invoke the "religion" card anymore, can they? :lol:
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

I thought that was the starting presumption for a paleocon.

True. This is just further confirmation.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

True. This is just further confirmation.

Surely you don't agree with arresting or fining a priest for performing a private ceremony because the state demands that their piece of paper must be present authorizing that ceremony.
 
Very interesting lawsuit. So the question is this? If the United Church of Christ, which supports gay marriage, is not allowed to perform gay marriages, then are their first amendment religious freedoms being violated? They have certainly opened up a can of worms with this lawsuit.

Discussion?

Article is here - United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage.

Note to mods - Title would not fit, so I had to take a couple of words out to make it fit.

Second note to mods. The source changed the title, so now it doesn't match at all. LOL.

Good on them.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

Surely you don't agree with arresting or fining a priest for performing a private ceremony because the state demands that their piece of paper must be present authorizing that ceremony.

If a person presides over a marriage which is plainly invalid by law, they should be punished. UCC ministers (who aren't priests, BTW) are not above the law.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

If a person presides over a marriage which is plainly invalid by law, they should be punished. UCC ministers (who aren't priests, BTW) are not above the law.

So you are ok with the State forcing views on religious organizations as long as you agree with those views?
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

So you are ok with the State forcing views on religious organizations as long as you agree with those views?

They don't have to agree with the law.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

They don't have to agree with the law.

Oh ok, so you have no problem with the state forcing religious insitutions to pass out condoms then. AFterall, they don't have to agree with the law right?
 
Very interesting lawsuit. So the question is this? If the United Church of Christ, which supports gay marriage, is not allowed to perform gay marriages, then are their first amendment religious freedoms being violated? They have certainly opened up a can of worms with this lawsuit.

Discussion?

Article is here - United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage.

Note to mods - Title would not fit, so I had to take a couple of words out to make it fit.

Second note to mods. The source changed the title, so now it doesn't match at all. LOL.
What many don't see is that in order for this lawsuit to succeed, you have to establish a Church's right to legally officiate a municipal contract. In other words, you have to join Church and State. Do you really want the Church in government, or do you want the wall of separation respected?

So, I'm against this lawsuit, and my opposition has nothing to do with gay rights.
 
Churches don't perform marriages. They perform weddings. There's a big difference. No church is prevented from performing a same-sex wedding.

What many don't see is that in order for this lawsuit to succeed, you have to establish a Church's right to legally officiate a municipal contract. In other words, you have to join Church and State. Do you really want the Church in government, or do you want the wall of separation respected?

So, I'm against this lawsuit, and my opposition has nothing to do with gay rights.

This should end the thread, but, as i am sure you'll agree... It won't.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

Oh ok, so you have no problem with the state forcing religious insitutions to pass out condoms then. AFterall, they don't have to agree with the law right?

Contraception is evil, so the analogy does not hold.
 
What many don't see is that in order for this lawsuit to succeed, you have to establish a Church's right to legally officiate a municipal contract. In other words, you have to join Church and State. Do you really want the Church in government, or do you want the wall of separation respected?

So, I'm against this lawsuit, and my opposition has nothing to do with gay rights.

But the marriage they are conducting is a purely ceremonial and religious. They are not conducting a municipal contract.
 
But the marriage they are conducting is a purely ceremonial and religious. They are not conducting a municipal contract.
No church was ever barred from conducting same-sex weddings. Clergy weren't allowed to solemnize the legal document, is all, and signing a legal contract is not a religious right. This is about clergy solemnizing marriage licenses for the state.

So many people still believe gay marriage is about gays and marriage. It never was. In this case it's about dissolving the wall of separation.
 
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No church was ever barred from conducting same-sex weddings. Clergy weren't allowed to solemnize the legal document, is all, and signing a legal contract is not a religious right. This is about clergy solemnizing marriage licenses for the state.

here, from the cite, is what undermines your presentation:
State law says it is a misdemeanor crime for ministers to perform a marriage ceremony without having a marriage license for a couple.
the state has intruded into religious turf
*full disclosure: my friend is a party to this suit*
while i do not believe that impairs my objectivity, others could insist otherwise
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

If a person presides over a marriage which is plainly invalid by law, they should be punished. UCC ministers (who aren't priests, BTW) are not above the law.


Wow, so you literally want the state to dictate which private ceremonies are approved and which ones aren't.

They aren't signing a marriage certificate illegally. They are holding a private ceremony. Should we also punish people for holding an Easter mass in a manner that the state doesn't recognize?
 
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No church was ever barred from conducting same-sex weddings. Clergy weren't allowed to solemnize the legal document, is all, and signing a legal contract is not a religious right. This is about clergy solemnizing marriage licenses for the state.

So many people still believe gay marriage is about gays and marriage. It never was. In this case it's about dissolving the wall of separation.

The story in the OP leaves that part out. The below story explaines the wording of the law: "after the passage of Amendment One in 2012, it became illegal for a member of the clergy to officiate at a wedding where a marriage license is not present."

Defending True Religious Liberty: Church Files Lawsuit in Support of Marriage Equality | Rev. Emily C. Heath

This is what the churches are suing over. They have been conducting non-official, strictly religious marriage ceremonies and the law is now saying they can be arrested for it.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

Wow, so you literally want the state to dictate which private ceremonies are approved and which ones aren't.

Try aren't signing a marriage certificate illegally. They are holding a private ceremony. Should we also punish people for holding an Easter mass in a manner that the state doesn't recognize?

The state should disallow fraudulent marriage ceremonies.
 
Very interesting lawsuit. So the question is this? If the United Church of Christ, which supports gay marriage, is not allowed to perform gay marriages, then are their first amendment religious freedoms being violated? They have certainly opened up a can of worms with this lawsuit.

Discussion?

Article is here - United Church of Christ sues over NC ban on same-sex marriage.

Note to mods - Title would not fit, so I had to take a couple of words out to make it fit.

Second note to mods. The source changed the title, so now it doesn't match at all. LOL.


So who is stopping the United Church of Christ from performing a wedding for gay couples? Isn't the church only supposed to worry about the spiritual function of the wedding rather than the politics the couple may or may not face out in the world?
 
So who is stopping the United Church of Christ from performing a wedding for gay couples? Isn't the church only supposed to worry about the spiritual function of the wedding rather than the politics the couple may or may not face out in the world?

NC's new law is. It has made it illegal to perform a marriage when the couple doesnt have a marriage liscense. This means church's cant perform purely religious ceremonial marriages.
 
Re: Religious Group Files a Lawsuit Against North Carolina's Gay Marriage Ban

The state should disallow fraudulent marriage ceremonies.

That is the point, these are purely ceremonial and not legal.
 
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