Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly.....[W:696:1188]

Excon · May 11, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Mustachio said:
A) I wasn't aware that this was your forum

There are many things that you are not aware of it seems.
But specifically to this, no one said it was.
But you did go out of your way to make me the focus of discussion. That is wrong and actually shows you can not support your inane arguments.

Mustachio said:
Because when people say "better off as slaves," it doesn't mean "the government is keeping them down." If that's what I meant, I'd say "they'd be better off if welfare was abolished." So clearly, what I mean was literally "they are better off as slaves." Do you see what I did there?

:doh :lamo
What you did wass show how you might use your language skills, which pertain not to how he used his.
Duh!

Mustachio said:
And when you respond to every sentence that disagrees with you using brilliant rebuttals such as: "you are wrong. I am right and it cannot be disputed," you really, really deserve to get some grief.

When you are wrong, you are wrong. I do not deserve any grief for you being wrong.

tres borrachos · May 11, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Mustachio said:
The opinions Excon posts are facts, too. According to him. He's lucky, he doesn't even have to provide valid arguments in support of his claim, because he is incapable of being wrong. That's made for some stimulating debate on this subject!

It's totally irrelevant to what you said, but a fitting end to this awful, awful thread. And since you were debating the numbers with those guys, I just want to to be aware that you shouldn't be looking at which race has the highest poverty level (or receives the most welfare). The easiest way to guess whether or not a person is poor - if they are a single mother or the child of a single mother. I've often wondered if single mothers would be better off as slaves.

I have no interest in bashing Excon. If you object to his opinions, please direct that at him, not me. Thanks.

I was talking about the facts he posted.

Mustachio · May 11, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Excon said:
When you are wrong, you are wrong. I do not deserve any grief for you being wrong.

So then you're standing by your argument that "words of concern" cannot be racist? It is impossible for a person who is speaking out of concern to say something racist, even unintentionally? If you recall my example: "I'm terrible concerned about the blacks, as ever since we allowed them to leave the plantation, they have failed to understand how to be anything other than primitive animals who kill each other instead of learning how to read and write."

So what I said wasn't racist, because I said it out of concern? According to your own argument, what I just said isn't racist. And your original counter was: "wrong."

Excon · May 12, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Mustachio said:
So then you're standing by your argument that "words of concern" cannot be racist?

:lamo
Are you again making things up?

Mustachio said:
It is impossible for a person who is speaking out of concern to say something racist, even unintentionally?

Maybe you just do not understand what the word means.
The man isn't a racist and he said nothing racist.
He expressed nothing that said his race was superior to another's and he did not disparage, express hatred or intolerance.
Nothing he said was racist.
There was nothing racist said. Unintentionally or otherwise.
You have to take his words out of context to even suggest such and suggesting such is born of ignorance.

Mustachio said:
If you recall my example: "I'm terrible concerned about the blacks, as ever since we allowed them to leave the plantation, they have failed to understand how to be anything other than primitive animals who kill each other instead of learning how to read and write."

So what I said wasn't racist, because I said it out of concern? According to your own argument, what I just said isn't racist. And your original counter was: "wrong."

Your example is and was irrelevant as stated.
It isn't even comparable to what he said.

Mustachio · May 12, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Excon said:
:lamo
Are you again making things up?
Maybe you just do not understand what the word means.
The man isn't a racist and he said nothing racist.
He expressed nothing that said his race was superior to another's and he did not disparage, express hatred or intolerance.
Nothing he said was racist.
There was nothing racist said. Unintentionally or otherwise.
You have to take his words out of context to even suggest such and suggesting such is born of ignorance.
Your example is and was irrelevant as stated.
It isn't even comparable to what he said.

I think we can all agree that racism is the belief that one race is inferior to another race. I know that there are a handful of specific definitions out there, but finding a race to be inferior to another race is pretty much what they all boil down to.

Now here are Cliven Bundy's comments, IN CONTEXT, and I will tell you exactly why I think they are racist.

and so what I’ve testified to ya’, I was in the WATTS riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen the last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people is thinking they did not have their freedom; they didn’t have these things, and they didn’t have them.

We’ve progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and sure don’t want to go back; we sure don’t want the colored people to go back to that point; we sure don’t want the Mexican people to go back to that point; and we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way.

Let me tell.. talk to you about the Mexicans, and these are just things I know about the negroes. I want to tell you one more thing I know about the negro.

When I go, went, go to Las Vegas, North Las Vegas; and I would see these little government houses, and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids…. and there was always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch. They didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for the kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for the young girls to do.

And because they were basically on government subsidy – so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?

Let's examine this quote. Here's what Bundy is saying: black people are addicted to welfare, which makes their lives empty and meaningless, so they resort to a lifestyle of violence and sex. As slaves, their lives were better than they are now, because they were forced by their white masters to adhere to family values when they were on the plantation.

You have repeatedly asserted that Bundy wasn't talking about all black people. He was. He said "these are things I know about the negroes." He is obviously saying that in general, black people are living off of entitlement programs, and are violent people. And it's because "they never learned to pick cotton." What are you missing here? You somehow believe that Bundy announces that he "knows about the negroes," and you're saying that he just means a select few of them? That's utterly absurd.

The implication that black people are all violent, child aborting welfare abusers -- and his speculation as to why this is -- clearly indicates that he thinks of black people as an inferior race. Perhaps you could argue that Bundy is saying that their inferiority is due to societal reasons and not biological reasons, but that's the best I'd accept.

And again, you said that words of concern can't be racist. You can't run away from that. I think I have proven you wrong on that point to the satisfaction of all rational people on that point.

The Mark · May 12, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Mustachio said:
*snip for brevity*

I had a different take on those words.

To me, they highlight Bundy's main problem - being uninformed and not realizing it.

At some point in the past, Bundy saw some black persons in the situation he describes, and has applied that single data point to all black people everywhere.

It is this faulty assumption that, IMO, makes him an unwitting racist.

Excon · May 13, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Mustachio said:
And again, you said that words of concern can't be racist. You can't run away from that.

:lamo
Like I said: "Are you again making things up?"
If you don't understand that, it is a challenge for evidence. Duh!

Mustachio said:
Now here are Cliven Bundy's comments, IN CONTEXT,

:doh
Wrong. You are substituting what you want the context to be, for his.

He was speaking of the deleterious effects welfare has had on those Negroes receiving it.

Mustachio said:
Let's examine this quote. Here's what Bundy is saying: black people are addicted to welfare, which makes their lives empty and meaningless, so they resort to a lifestyle of violence and sex. As slaves, their lives were better than they are now, because they were forced by their white masters to adhere to family values when they were on the plantation.

Wrong. This in nothing other than the manifestations of your convoluted thoughts.

Mustachio said:
You have repeatedly asserted that Bundy wasn't talking about all black people. He was. He said "these are things I know about the negroes." He is obviously saying that in general, black people are living off of entitlement programs, and are violent people. And it's because "they never learned to pick cotton." What are you missing here? You somehow believe that Bundy announces that he "knows about the negroes," and you're saying that he just means a select few of them?

Nothing but more manifestations of your convoluted thoughts.
So again as previously replied to you.

Excon said:
Mustachio said:

Now as to your assertion that Bundy was only talking about black people on welfare.

Click to expand...

And he was, it became clear as soon as he said "government houses" and was even more clear when he said "on government subsidy". Those were the "negros" he was speaking about in context.
Yet we have folks that do not understand that, and want to take what he said out of context to say he was speaking about all.
Well they are just wrong.
He was specifically speaking of those on welfare.
Refusal to see that is willful blindness.

Your position is convoluted and untenable.

Mustachio said:
The implication that black people are all violent, child aborting welfare abusers -- and his speculation as to why this is -- clearly indicates that he thinks of black people as an inferior race. Perhaps you could argue that Bundy is saying that their inferiority is due to societal reasons and not biological reasons, but that's the best I'd accept.

Out of context, convoluted bs.

Mustachio said:
I think I have proven you wrong on that point to the satisfaction of all rational people on that point.

:lamo
You in your convoluted thoughts believe that you have proven someone wrong (iLOL), when all reality all you have done is shown your thought to be convoluted and your position untenable.

The Mark said:
I had a different take on those words.

To me, they highlight Bundy's main problem - being uninformed and not realizing it.

At some point in the past, Bundy saw some black persons in the situation he describes, and has applied that single data point to all black people everywhere.

It is this faulty assumption that, IMO, makes him an unwitting racist.

You can not be unwittingly racist in this case.
That is an absurd position.

His words were of concern, not disparagement, hatred or intolerance. Nor did they even suggest he thought his race was superior.
All the things that could make something racist, just are not there.
And no. He spoke specifically of the Negroes he knew about on welfare.

At no time did he ever say or imply all that all negroes were on welfare.
To even assert such you have to take what he says out of context.

Mustachio · May 13, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Excon said:
:lamo
Like I said: "Are you again making things up?"
If you don't understand that, it is a challenge for evidence. Duh!

The problem with discussing this issue with you is that you don't explain your position. All you say is "you're wrong," but you don't refute assertions. The refutation of an assertion is essential to a debate. You must use logic or evidence to refute my assertions and if you feel you have done so successfully, then you may say "you're wrong" and it will mean something. So I welcome you to respond to my previous post once again and refute my assertions using logic and examples from the relevant text. Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't mean I'm wrong.

The Mark · May 13, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Excon said:
You can not be unwittingly racist in this case.
That is an absurd position.

His words were of concern, not disparagement, hatred or intolerance. Nor did they even suggest he thought his race was superior.
All the things that could make something racist, just are not there.
And no. He spoke specifically of the Negroes he knew about on welfare.

At no time did he ever say or imply all that all negroes were on welfare.
To even assert such you have to take what he says out of context.

When I heard him talk, it sounded like he was referring to all black persons, based on what he saw once.

It may be that he meant specifically black persons on welfare, but at no point in his statement was that at all clarified, after his initial line on the topic which implied ALL.

Excon · May 13, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Mustachio said:
The problem with discussing this issue with you is that you don't explain your position. All you say is "you're wrong," but you don't refute assertions. The refutation of an assertion is essential to a debate. You must use logic or evidence to refute my assertions and if you feel you have done so successfully, then you may say "you're wrong" and it will mean something. So I welcome you to respond to my previous post once again and refute my assertions using logic and examples from the relevant text. Just because you disagree with my opinion doesn't mean I'm wrong.

:doh
And you are again wrong.
Figures.

The Mark said:
When I heard him talk, it sounded like he was referring to all black persons, based on what he saw once.

It may be that he meant specifically black persons on welfare, but at no point in his statement was that at all clarified, after his initial line on the topic which implied ALL.

Which would be you not following what he is saying in context.

Excon said:
And he was, it became clear as soon as he said "government houses" and was even more clear when he said "on government subsidy". Those were the "negros" he was speaking about in context.
Yet we have folks that do not understand that, and want to take what he said out of context to say he was speaking about all.

The Mark · May 13, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Excon said:
:doh
And you are again wrong.
Figures.

Which would be you not following what he is saying in context.

He was using those terms in the context of talking about "the negro", in a general way.

Why is why I saw it the way I did.

Excon · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

The Mark said:
He was using those terms in the context of talking about "the negro", in a general way.

Why is why I saw it the way I did.

Yes we know how you saw it. It is out of context to that which he was speaking.
He was specifically speaking of those who receive gov welfare.

The Mark · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Excon said:
Yes we know how you saw it. It is out of context to that which he was speaking.
He was specifically speaking of those who receive gov welfare.

It's not out of context.

It's just a different take on the same words.

Excon · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

The Mark said:
It's not out of context.

It's just a different take on the same words.

Yes it is out of context because he was specific as to whom he was speaking.

The Mark · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Excon said:
Yes it is out of context because he was specific as to whom he was speaking.

I didn't see/hear that.

Excon · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

The Mark said:
I didn't see/hear that.

And yet it was right there in front of your face.

The Mark · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Excon said:
And yet it was right there in front of your face.

I saw the same words you did.

However apparently we got different meanings from them.

Excon · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

The Mark said:
I saw the same words you did.

However apparently we got different meanings from them.

No. Apparently you do not understand how words add context.

zimmer · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

The Mark said:
I had a different take on those words.

To me, they highlight Bundy's main problem - being uninformed and not realizing it.

It seems you are the one who is uninformed and fail to realize it. You do a bang-up job showing why below.

At some point in the past, Bundy saw some black persons in the situation he describes, and has applied that single data point to all black people everywhere.

He decribes north Vegas, and correctly ascribes the sad situation much of black America finds itself... and this after much government "assistance".

I think you really need to read a little from men like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes.

It is this faulty assumption that, IMO, makes him an unwitting racist.

The decay of black America isn't a faulty assumption, nor is the role of government in the decay. You are the one who cannot see reality from wherever you are seated.

Economist Thomas Sowell argues that the significant expansion of federal welfare under the Great Society programs beginning in the 1960s contributed to the destruction of African American families. Sowell has argued that "the black family, which had survived centuries of slavery and discrimination, began rapidly disintegrating in the liberal welfare state that subsidized unwed pregnancy and changed welfare from an emergency rescue to a way of life."

War on Poverty Revisited | Capitalism MagazineCapitalism Magazine

Obama and his Marxist poverty pimp mentality hasn't only added to the problem, he has made things worse by failing to recognize what has historically helped create better lives.

The poverty rate for blacks sharply increased, rising from 12 percent in 2008 to 16.1 percent Wednesday. Median income declined by 3.6 percent for white households to $58,000, but fell 10.9 percent to $33,500 for black households, Census Bureau figures show.

"The data is going to indicate sadly that when the Obama administration is over, black people will have lost ground in every single leading economic indicator category," Tavis Smiley, a black radio talk-show host, said on Fox News in October. "On that regard, the president ought to be held responsible."

While blacks turned out in record numbers to support Obama in 2012, many are becoming more vocal about the lack of progress for African-Americans.

"I don't know how much he has done or how much his policies are responsible for the current state of blacks in America. What I do know is that we are worse off than we were when he came into office," Harry Alford, president of the National Black Chamber of Commerce, told Newsmax.

Read Latest Breaking News from Newsmax.com Race Gap: Blacks Fall Further Behind Under Obama

AJiveMan · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

zimmer said:
It seems you are the one who is uninformed and fail to realize it. You do a bang-up job showing why below.

He decribes north Vegas, and correctly ascribes the sad situation much of black America finds itself... and this after much government "assistance".

I think you really need to read a little from men like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes.

The decay of black America isn't a faulty assumption, nor is the role of government in the decay. You are the one who cannot see reality from wherever you are seated.

Obama and his Marxist poverty pimp mentality hasn't only added to the problem, he has made things worse by failing to recognize what has historically helped create better lives.

Obama did all that to Vegas? I knew he was a powerful figure, but wow. :roll:

Kobie · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

zimmer said:
I think you really need to read a little from men like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes.

I stopped reading there lol. Talk about three hacks and the most useless SCOTUS justice in the history of the high court.

AJiveMan · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Kobie said:
I stopped reading there lol. Talk about three hacks and the most useless SCOTUS justice in the history of the high court.

Silly me, I read further than you! :3oops:

The Mark · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

zimmer said:
It seems you are the one who is uninformed and fail to realize it. You do a bang-up job showing why below.

I disagree.

zimmer said:
He decribes north Vegas, and correctly ascribes the sad situation much of black America finds itself... and this after much government "assistance".

More or less accurate.

zimmer said:
I think you really need to read a little from men like Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Clarence Thomas and Alan Keyes.

Not sure how that's related.

zimmer said:
The decay of black America isn't a faulty assumption, nor is the role of government in the decay. You are the one who cannot see reality from wherever you are seated.

That wasn't the faulty assumption he made. The faulty assumption was in his generalization.

zimmer · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

The Mark said:
That wasn't the faulty assumption he made. The faulty assumption was in his generalization.

I've asked everyone to post the quote in full to point out where he was racist.

One person tried and they failed.

Nobody else has touched it in context... Nobody. It's not a difficult task, except for those who read the quote and realize it's not racist.

... and Bundy's assumption wasn't faulty. If his is... so is Sowell's, Alan Keyes, Clarence Thomas and Walter Williams. I'll side with them. You can believe the BS from the Party of Poverty Pimps... Demokrats.

zimmer · May 14, 2014

Re: Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly what I said’[W:

Kobie said:
I stopped reading there lol. Talk about three hacks and the most useless SCOTUS justice in the history of the high court.

Yeah... Sowell, a former far Lefty turned Conservative, like von Mises... a hack. And the other three "useless". Quite the character assisination coming from well... ROTFLOL... a real man of mental agility.

A narrow mind must be a wonderful thing to have.

The only thing you've seemingly forgotten the typical leftist bit about some Uncle...

As you were.

Cliven Bundy stands by racially charged comments, ‘That’s exactly.....[W:696:1188]

Excon

tres borrachos

HoHoHo

Mustachio

Excon

Mustachio

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

Excon

Mustachio

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

Excon

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

Excon

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

Excon

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

Excon

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

Excon

zimmer

Educating the Ignorant

AJiveMan

Paying To Play

Kobie

AJiveMan

Paying To Play

The Mark

Sporadic insanity normal.

zimmer

Educating the Ignorant

zimmer

Educating the Ignorant